Jesse Lingard | Seoul singer

SAF set the winning culture of the club during his time here. He'd move players on if he felt they lacked or dipped 1% from the winning mindset he always wanted to instill and maintain.

SAF leaves, Moyes arrives. SAF winning culture is still there with the players but Moyes is so bad the players turn on him. In come LvG and then Mourinho and suddenly there's a lot of incoming (mostly dross) and outgoing (veterans, who actually implemented SAF's winning culture).

The new guys coming in (especially foreigners) won't set the new culture by themselves (naturally, since they're new and in a foreign country) which is when the existing bunch and upcoming academy lads who have been there for years set the tone of the squad, especially the outspoken ones. Unfortunately these guys proved to be Pogba, Lingard, and a bunch of others including Rashford later on.

I mean Lingard's basically admitted he wanted to have a good time playing for Man Utd. Not saying SAF had them training 24/7 drills but winning came 1st, then it was about having fun. People like Lingard are satisfied with the FA cup final goal and calling it a day. How many times did we say he's hiding from the ball in the big games? How many times did he disappoint us time and time again? How many chances was he given before signed Fernandes for the AM role?

Pogba Lingard Shaw Martial and later on Rashford set the tone for player power, enabled by the idiot executives up top.
For example, Mourinho was blocked from selling Martial. What message does that send? You're more important and we value you more than the opinion of the guy whose in charge of you ffs.

Pogba, allegedly (before the fanboys jump on), high fived people in the squad on the day Mourinho got sacked and said "no one fecks with me" before Carrick, allegedly, told him to pipe down.

From then on, its a rot. New guys come in, perform for 1 and 2 months, then see the lack of player accountability and lack of power the manager actually has, and revert similarly to the existing players. From then on the menality is "Maybe we'll play well maybe not, there's no repercussions. But we'll have fun doing it." Hell, they might even bullshit their way to a fat new contract thanks to the idiotic executives (DDG new contract which Mou said was insane, Phil Jones 5 year contract while barely playing 5 games a season, Luke Shaw new contract with his injury record, Pogba trying to be re-signed and thankfully refusing). Keeping in mind they are paid more than 1.5x their counterparts at rival clubs AT LEAST and underperform massively compared to them.

It was a combination of player power, which Lingard was also a part of, and gross mismanagement from executive level. To say he single handedly (or better yet, the players single handedly) ruined the culture is false. But to say he also didn't play a big part of it is also not true.

Maybe he isn't ready yet to admit that his mentality wasn't the level required for Man Utd (that shitty 0.012% cringe post comes to mind), or maybe deep down he doesn't feel he did anything wrong. In all cases, its good we got rid of him and most of that bunch of players down the line, and its even better to see a manager nowadays being given authority to require player accountability.
 
UnitedSofa said:
This is the mindset of a lot of football fans, take one thing and understand it as if x = y and there are no grey areas or nuances in life.

In life there are lots of nuances and not everything is literally black and white.

Having fun does not mean he doesn’t take his job seriously, wouldn’t you be having fun at every available moment that you can?

You act as if playing for Man Utd should be 100% intensive and 100% laser focused at all moments and if you aren’t, you’re a waster who doesn’t deserve to be there.

Life doesn’t work like that, if you do live like that you’ll be very unhappy and not able to enjoy what you do have because you’re always looking for the next thing.

I’d rather my players have fun and play football, by no means (because I’m sure there will be no naunce applied to this) do I mean take the piss, but go out and enjoy your football, have fun and win the game.
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Yep. You'd think the players under Fergie had no fun. When you look back at it, it sounds like at least half the time they were doing similar things.

The results were just different because of recruitment and a worse manager.
 
The boys didn’t destroy anything. Their careers are a symptom of the broken culture - not a cause.

If any one of them came up as an 18 year old with the likes of Robson, Cantona, Keane, Hughes, Giggs, Schmeichel, Irwin, Vidic and all the other great leaders we had in the 90s, they’d have had very different careers - I’m completely sure of that.

Likewise, there are players who had excellent United careers because of the environment they came up in, who would be seen as failures if they’d come through since 2013.
 
golden_blunder said:
I have nothing against him and I find it silly to dislike someone because you don’t like the dance he does (not you personally). As evidenced by this thread. I’d argue that not liking someone doing a dance is more immature than actually doing a dance
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I don't think it's specifically the dancing, in all fairness. It's what they think the dancing represents, which (rightly or wrongly) is a player not properly committed to being at his best, at what they (rightly or wrongly) consider to be the best club in the world.

Lingard (like a number of others) was effectively a victim of circumstances beyond his control. Under Fergie (or if we were managed properly), I believe he'd have been among the long list of players who had a brief stint in the senior side before being moved on. As it transpired, we'd invested terribly so he ended up with a squad status and wage that his ability and output didn't really command.

I don't think it's possible to fully unpick how much of it was his personality and how much of it was the club being in the shit despite him.
 
clarkydaz said:
18 months without a goal/assist i believe. Left for Forest and ended up on the bench there. Trademarked a goal celebration for a player who bareley scores
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Yup, there's a lot of revisionism going on about Lingard. He was utter tripe for United for the majority of his time here. He had one good season under Jose, of all managers, but that's about it.
 
diarm said:
The boys didn’t destroy anything. Their careers are a symptom of the broken culture - not a cause.

If any one of them came up as an 18 year old with the likes of Robson, Cantona, Keane, Hughes, Giggs, Schmeichel, Irwin, Vidic and all the other great leaders we had in the 90s, they’d have had very different careers - I’m completely sure of that.

Likewise, there are players who had excellent United careers because of the environment they came up in, who would be seen as failures if they’d come through since 2013.
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I get what you're saying here, but I'm not sure it's strictly true.

Pogba has had a number of issues, and was with the club until he was 19. Fergie was the one that made the call to let him go, rather than offer him the contract/playing time he was demanding.

Then you've got Ravel Morrison, who doesn't even really need his issues discussing.

Even someone like Darron Gibson was with the club until his early/mid-20s, and he's ended up getting done twice for drink driving.

Some players just haven't got the personality/intelligence to thrive, regardless of any natural ability they might have.
 
diarm said:
The boys didn’t destroy anything. Their careers are a symptom of the broken culture - not a cause.

If any one of them came up as an 18 year old with the likes of Robson, Cantona, Keane, Hughes, Giggs, Schmeichel, Irwin, Vidic and all the other great leaders we had in the 90s, they’d have had very different careers - I’m completely sure of that.

Likewise, there are players who had excellent United careers because of the environment they came up in, who would be seen as failures if they’d come through since 2013.
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Better players than Lingard failed at our club. People often forget the conveyor of talent that DIDN'T make it at United, and some much, much better players than him got sold on by Sir Alex and went on to have decent careers. The sad truth is that Lingard was overrated, overplayed, and overpaid. That was our various managers fault, not his own. He was decent but he wasn't even as good as Jonathan Greening. Terry Cooke went to Birmingham and had a decent career. That would have been about Jese's level, actually. To put Lingard in the same squad with Robson wouldn't have changed that, same way it didn't for Cooke or the 1999 lot with Greening. He simply wasn't that good, and there's a reason he's playing in Seoul.

It wasn't his fault, per say, but it was indeed a culture of mediocrity that allowed a footballing number 10 at man Utd to play an ENTIRE CALENDER YEAR without registering a single goal or assist. A year when City had de Bruyne and Liverpool had Firmino. We accepted - and rewarded - utter mediocrity. It's Manchester Uniteds fault though, not Lingards. He was just shit.
 
GazTheLegend said:
Better players than Lingard failed at our club. People often forget the conveyor of talent that DIDN'T make it at United, and some much, much better players than him got sold on by Sir Alex and went on to have decent careers. The sad truth is that Lingard was overrated, overplayed, and overpaid. That was our various managers fault, not his own. He was decent but he wasn't even as good as Jonathan Greening. Terry Cooke went to Birmingham and had a decent career. That would have been about Jese's level, actually. To put Lingard in the same squad with Robson wouldn't have changed that, same way it didn't for Cooke or the 1999 lot with Greening. He simply wasn't that good, and there's a reason he's playing in Seoul.

It wasn't his fault, per say, but it was indeed a culture of mediocrity that allowed a footballing number 10 at man Utd to play an ENTIRE CALENDER YEAR without registering a single goal or assist. A year when City had de Bruyne and Liverpool had Firmino. We accepted - and rewarded - utter mediocrity. It's Manchester Uniteds fault though, not Lingards. He was just shit.
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Oh I’m not for a second suggesting Lingard would’ve gone on to be world class. I also wouldn’t say he had a potential anywhere near as high as Rashford or Pogba. Just that the culture at United didn’t develop him into a mature, focused footballer who was able to maximise the potential he did have.
 
The Mitcher said:
There aren't any dogwhistles. They just want scapegoats. I do find it hard to believe that Jesse destroyed the culture of United, he has never looked like the evil conniving type.
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Yes, instead, he was the fittest among them all. This is just a lame attempt to put blame on certain individuals.
 
He didnt destroyed it, wasnt his fault club put out with his and Pogba and Rashford's nonsense.
 
All these people going on about why shouldn’t they have “fun” show me examples of City and Liverpool players having fun over the last 10 years, you never see any of them acting like Lingard and the rest of the wasters we’ve had

The people condoning it are as big a problem and it’s cause of them that the likes of Shaw is here 10 years
 
The people that destroyed United were the board and staff in senior positions making silly decisions over and over again, which you could argue include holding on to players like Lingard, Rashford and Pogba for too long and also not making sure that their tiktok dancing was nipped in the bud. The trio are the scapegoats because they were putting in stinky performances more often than not while putting out those videos but better management would have made sure that if they were shit they weren't playing and if they were shit they'd definitely not be making tiktok dancing videos.
 
SilentWitness said:
The people that destroyed United were the board and staff in senior positions making silly decisions over and over again, which you could argue include holding on to players like Lingard, Rashford and Pogba for too long and also not making sure that their tiktok dancing was nipped in the bud. The trio are the scapegoats because they were putting in stinky performances more often than not while putting out those videos but better management would have made sure that if they were shit they weren't playing and if they were shit they'd definitely not be making tiktok dancing videos.
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Good summary
 
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