[SATA]

I like that he always makes the effort to clap the fans off whether he's coming off or after the match ends, and makes a point to the others to do the same. He's one of us and understands what the club and it's values are all about

Also why does he ignore Sanchez all the time?

 

[Johan07]

I take it the brighter the blue is where he spent most of his time or just where most of his touches were, because if so if anything that would indicate the left to me. Like I said later in a post to me he was assigned the right hand side but he does what Jesse does and probably what he is instructed to do which was pop up all over the front line or where ever he thinks space will be he just always reset to the right hand side, as you could see when we were defending, Sanchez went back on the left and Lingard on the right. He was just doing what Mata always does.

I would agree with this. He did not play the false nine/top of the diamond position that we have seen earlier. I would also concur that his starting position was RW, mainly because of his position defensively. He was not playing between Rashford and Sanchez. He was defending to the right with Rash centrally.
Offensively the difference between the extremely inverted RW we have played since the early days of Mourinho and a "false nine" is not that big though. Thats what one can see on the heatmap as well.
I personally dont believe at all that this is because that we lack a "proper RW", which seems to be the Cafs favorite narrative.
I think its a deliberate tactical decision to create numerical advantages centrally, where the focus of our attack was under Mourinho and still is now. How Eriksen plays at Spurs is a good comparison.
I get if people want to see a return to the wingplay of old United teams but its probably time to get over the fact that we are not playing like that anymore and probably never will.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I personally dont believe at all that this is because that we lack a "proper RW", which seems to be the Cafs favorite narrative.
I think its a deliberate tactical decision to create numerical advantages centrally, where the focus of our attack was under Mourinho and still is now. How Eriksen plays at Spurs is a good comparison.
I get if people want to see a return to the wingplay of old United teams but its probably time to get over the fact that we are not playing like that anymore and probably never will.

In a way I agree that it’s tactical but if we take Ousmane Dembele for example he can go central do things but he also is very capable of going on the outside or acting like a winger, something neither Mata or Lingard can do. Dembele mixes it up which is what I feel we need to do better at on that side with Jesse, often it’s quite predictable.

So when people say we need a RW I often interpret it as someone like that instead of the old fashioned stick to the wing and cross it in type.

 

[Ish]

After a performance like he just put in, he really should stay off social media. He’s a complete and utter embarrassment to the club. He’s even limited the comments to his post, because he knows what most will be.

That's a wee bit OTT

 

[Johan07]

Going by touch and pass map, Sanchez was the only attacker who stayed on left wing, Rashford and Lingard were all over the place. Solskjaer also said that on Lingard, that he is a link player. So he wasn't playing as right winger. It's like that from so many games and even before Solskjaer too, just that FBs are pushed very high and we play with attackers who interchange positions now.

Its a little bit of semantics that though. What is a RW really?
Are we discussing offensively or defensively? For me its the defensive setup thats decisive.
What I thought was clear from yesterday was that Lingard defended to the right, with Sanchez to the left and Rashford through the middle. Semantics again but for me that makes him a RW.
That was a clear difference from seeing Lingard defending as a false nine in the middle as he has done before under OGS. Then he has a responsibility for the opponents DM. That was not the case yday.
On the other hand, referring to my post above, we have not been playing with a "RW" in possession for a very long time now. And we are not the only top club in Europe doing so. Eriksen and Isco are good examples.

 

[Ish]

Classic "Jesse is a nothing player" is inevitable after that below par performance from the whole team.

This thread has the same predictable pattern. When he plays good, he won't get any credits, when he plays bad the hate flock will return here and say he is nothing.

Same pattern, can we just lock this thread?

Oh, the contraire, isn't it? Goes both ways, IMO.

I think it's 2 sets on either side of the fence over compensating for one another after every good/poor performance with OTT praise or OTT criticism.

 

[roonster09]

Its a little bit of semantics that though. What is a RW really?
Are we discussing offensively or defensively? For me its the defensive setup thats decisive.
What I thought was clear from yesterday was that Lingard defended to the right, with Sanchez to the left and Rashford through the middle. Semantics again but for me that makes him a RW.
That was a clear difference from seeing Lingard defending as a false nine in the middle as he has done before under OGS. Then he has a responsibility for the opponents DM. That was not the case yday.
On the other hand, referring to my post above, we have not been playing with a "RW" in possession for a very long time now. And we are not the only top club in Europe doing so. Eriksen and Isco are good examples.

Yeah, more or less agree with your post and bold part is something I posted too. We haven't played with RW even before Solskjaer took over.

 

[Johan07]

In a way I agree that it’s tactical but if we take Ousmane Dembele for example he can go central do things but he also is very capable of going on the outside or acting like a winger, something neither Mata or Lingard can do. Dembele mixes it up which is what I feel we need to do better at on that side with Jesse, often it’s quite predictable.

So when people say we need a RW I often interpret it as someone like that instead of the old fashioned stick to the wing and cross it in type.

No, I agree about Dembele. But teams like Barca and City also plays very differently from us and Spurs for example. Their wingers starts much more wide in possession. A player like Dembele is much more suitable to that type of play.
One can discuss if its the chicken or the egg here; does one choose tactics first and players secondly. Or the other way around.
I think its the first for us at least. Especially under Mourinho that was absoultely the case IMO.

 

[In Rainbows]

In a way I agree that it’s tactical but if we take Ousmane Dembele for example he can go central do things but he also is very capable of going on the outside or acting like a winger, something neither Mata or Lingard can do. Dembele mixes it up which is what I feel we need to do better at on that side with Jesse, often it’s quite predictable.

So when people say we need a RW I often interpret it as someone like that instead of the old fashioned stick to the wing and cross it in type.

Yeah, we don't really have someone on the right who can take players on. It's not so much of a problem that they go inside, but more so that they can't go outside.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Yeah, more or less agree with your post and bold part is something I posted too. We haven't played with RW even before Solskjaer took over.

We haven’t been particularly dangerous attacking for a very long time either. Mainly down to everything funneling through the middle. Easier to defend.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

So we’ve 9 wins out of 10 he didn’t start v Burnley so I’m guessing he’s started 8/9 out of 10 games Ole has managed and we’ve won them all. And the one he didn’t start he won the peno, yet he’s a nothing player just like young and Jones.
This place .

We have won the games yes, but majority of those games have been in spite of Lingard, not because of him.

He is a pretty nothing player, whether you like to admit it or not. Technically he is very limited and aside from his movement, he brings little else aside from the odd goal (which is expected as a United attacker anyways). If anything he gets off very lightly when it comes to the press etc.

He does have a place here as a squad player, but we need better than him in Summer.

 

[Foxbatt]

He was poor yesterday. It may be that because he has not been dropped its getting to his head?
I noticed that he doesn't pass to Sanchez and also he was holding the ball for too long and he didn't press. He looked as if he needs a break or just couldn't be arsed.

 

[Zlatattack]

Calm down people! He had a bad game, maybe needs a rest or something? He's been doing well for us since Ole took charge.

 

[Verminator]

Oh, the contraire, isn't it? Goes both ways, IMO.

I think it's 2 sets on either side of the fence over compensating for one another after every good/poor performance with OTT praise or OTT criticism.

There is a defining difference.
The pro-Jesse lobby don't claim him to be world class, or potentially so, where as the anti mob claim he is championship level and will never be any good.

Then there is the foam at the mouth splinter group, who think he should be shot if he ever opens a web browser, but who listens to fundamentalists?

 

[Ish]

There is a defining difference.
The pro-Jesse lobby don't claim him to be world class, or potentially so, where as the anti mob claim he is championship level and will never be any good.

Then there is the foam at the mouth splinter group, who think he should be shot if he ever opens a web browser, but who listens to fundamentalists?

Good point

 

[STYLOISRED]

I have to agree though, that his lack of creativity is a major drawback. I feel that he should be our main strikers main supplier given the position on the pitch but he isn't and thats why we are so reliant on Pogba to create. its a shame really because Mata who has the creative impetus, lacks the physical qualities to play that role. If only we could merge Lingard and Mata into one player
:-p .
The perfect player for that role would be Ericksen but we all know he would cost an arm and leg to obtain.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think he’s improved a-lot over the past 2 years or so and he’s a good squad player to have. We need to upgrade him as a starter though as he’s nowhere near consistent enough.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Calm down people! He had a bad game, maybe needs a rest or something? He's been doing well for us since Ole took charge.

He looked really down in his post match interview to MUTV too. Very unlike him after a win.

 

[shamans]

Fellaini's gone. Seems like this guys gonna be the our next "symbol of mediocrity we shall remove!" according to some fans.

 

[Jim Beam]

There is a defining difference.
The pro-Jesse lobby don't claim him to be world class, or potentially so, where as the anti mob claim he is championship level and will never be any good.

Then there is the foam at the mouth splinter group, who think he should be shot if he ever opens a web browser, but who listens to fundamentalists?

True

 

[RedDevil@84]

Fellaini's gone. Seems like this guys gonna be the our next "symbol of mediocrity we shall remove!" according to some fans.

Lukaku is obviously the new epitome of everything wrong at the club.
If he goes, Sanchez takes that spot.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Lukaku is obviously the new epitome of everything wrong at the club.
If he goes, Sanchez takes that spot.

Under Mourinho it was Rashford, Pogba and Martial

 

[Mcking]

Fellaini's gone. Seems like this guys gonna be the our next "symbol of mediocrity we shall remove!" according to some fans.

Everyone get their turn. I wonder when it is going to be Dalot's turn.

 

[Loublaze]

And you're a known Lingard lover/fanboy whom I'm sure is about to tell us about Jesse's movement and great work rate. I'll solve your little debate by saying that, as usual, they were both shite.

Yes, but one has had a nothing season and is the highest paid player at the club

 

[Sauldogba]

Hes been good recently but he just lacks that extra bit of quality a first team player should have for a club like us.
Average passing,average shooting,average decision making.
Hes just,well.....
Average.

 

[andersj]

Don’t think I’d agree with that personally but he was all over the front line and popping up central as he does but his position was predominantly supposed to be right wing hence why he kept resetting to there and why when we had to defend he seemed to be the one always going back down that side to help Young.

For Lingard it is interpreted differently, but the essence is the freedom granted to him, and his phenomenal running power to cover the pitch. “I like to be on the ball and get in positions to hurt teams. I pop up on the left and right and play the false nine. I enjoy that role. I feel like I have always had that energy since I was a young kid and I can get around the pitch for the full 90 minutes. It’s like a 10 and a nine, especially when we play the diamond formation and that has been working.

“I am not the focal point. I am obviously not a target man. We have the two strikers higher than I operate. I am between them and the midfield. It does cause defenders problems. I am between so they can’t pick me up. They start focusing on the two strikers rather than me. If those strikers make runs, I can come deep and get the ball. The runner always creates space for the man inside.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-interview-ole-knows-manchester-united-knows/

Yet another attempt at trying to position yourself to appear smarter than anyone that doesn't share your opinion...

EDIT: this was meant for you @andersj

Well, some of you dont make it very difficult. But I was not. I just wanted to point out that it is a paradox that someone who claim a player is not good enough have not noticed where this player plays. How can you know if he does his job well if you do not know his job?!

 

[Fracture90]

Well, some of you dont make it very difficult. But I was not. I just wanted to point out that it is a paradox that someone who claim a player is not good enough have not noticed where this player plays. How can you know if he does his job well if you do not know his job?!

You see your problem is that you're building your case around a very flawed argument .

Yes Lingard drifts inside, but what's his main position he's starting from and from which he operates?

 

[roonster09]

You see your problem is that you're building your case around a very flawed argument .

Yes Lingard drifts inside, but what's his main position he's starting from and from which he operates?

There is no fixed position. Names on paper is defensive position according to Solskjaer.

Can you see Anthony playing centrally?

Definitely, because Anthony’s preferred position would probably be a number nine, most of them want to play through the middle, but where you put out from the start it’s more the defensive position, we want them to rotate, interchange, you’ve got to get into the box to score.

 

[andersj]

You see your problem is that you're building your case around a very flawed argument .

Yes Lingard drifts inside, but what's his main position he's starting from and from which he operates?

Did you read the interview with Lingard in the post you quote?

 

[Fracture90]

Did you read the interview with Lingard in the post you quote?

Love it how the moment that article was published you felt ready to defend your stance, before that you went awol.

Lingard has a flexible position in team, but it doesn't change the fact he starts and mainly occupies the RW position and if we had a proper RW, it wouldn't have been the case for either him nor Mata. The sole reason we're starting him on the right despite his more free role in team is because we simply don't have a proper RW in the whole squad.

 

[andersj]

Love it how the moment that article was published you felt ready to defend your stance, before that you went awol.

Lingard has a flexible position in team, but it doesn't change the fact he starts and mainly occupies the RW position and if we had a proper RW, it wouldn't have been the case for either him nor Mata. The sole reason we're starting him on the right despite his more free role in team is because we simply don't have a proper RW in the whole squad.

I do not really see the point in discussing these type of things. The fact that you, after that interview with Lingard, is still trying to make a case that he played right winger just substantiate this for me; you have already decided. Nothing I say will change you mind.

Hell, even Jessie Lingards own description of where he plays did not change your mind, so I do not see the point in wasting any time on discussing it any further.

And yeah, how silly of me to support my argument with Lingards own word on the matter! Good luck!

 

[ivaldo]

There is no fixed position. Names on paper is defensive position according to Solskjaer.

See, this is pretty evident for anyone who has watched us play under Ole. We will have a defensive shape that leans toward players having structured and specific jobs, but there’s clearly fluidity to our attack.

The heat maps that are brought out again and again really only instruct us in where players operate in our defensive shape. As with Lingard, his most concentrated area is on the right side, but there are large areas centrally and even on the left suggesting he really doesn’t have a fixed position when we have the ball in the final third.

This idea that we must bring in a right wing specialist is way off. That player needs to be as comfortable on the left or centrally if they are to be successful in our current set up. We should be looking into how our rightbacks can better exploit the vacated space on our right.

 

[roonster09]

See, this is pretty evident for anyone who has watched us play under Ole. We will have a defensive shape that leans toward players having structured and specific jobs, but there’s clearly fluidity to our attack.

The heat maps that are brought out again and again really only instruct us in where players operate in our defensive shape. As with Lingard, his most concentrated area is on the right side, but there are large areas centrally and even on the left suggesting he really doesn’t have a fixed position when we have the ball in the final third.

Yeah, it's obvious from watching us play, from stats, from the interviews of players and manager than players don't have fixed positions when in possession, especially for the front 3. Anyways that's how most attacking team plays, there is no fixed position. It's just on paper and for defensive shape. Players always interchange and move all over the place.

 

[Fracture90]

I do not really see the point in discussing these type of things. The fact that you, after that interview with Lingard, is still trying to make a case that he played right winger just substantiate this for me; you have already decided. Nothing I say will change you mind.

Hell, even Jessie Lingards own description of where he plays did not change your mind, so I do not see the point in wasting any time on discussing it any further.

And yeah, how silly of me to support my argument with Lingards own word on the matter! Good luck!

You're arguing with yourself or ignoring what I'm saying so that your point has some legs. You understand I'm not saying he's de facto a RW but rather by default he occupies that position, both on the pitch (albeit he's got a lot of freedom and he roams around) and on paper.

And the only reason he's starting there is because we have no actual RW.

You came in quite arrogant and now you're backpedaling and constantly ignoring the fact I never said he playing exclusively as a RW.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Yeah, it's obvious from watching us play, from stats, from the interviews of players and manager than players don't have fixed positions when in possession, especially for the front 3. Anyways that's how most attacking team plays, there is no fixed position. It's just on paper and for defensive shape. Players always interchange and move all over the place.

Wouldn’t the fact that if he retreats to RW and tracks back defensively there sugggest he has a defacto setting of operating on the RW. It’s symantics but he is sent out as a RW and allowed to do as he pleases in an attacking sense, popping up where ever he wants but this doesn’t take away from the fact he is deployed as our RW option.

 

[roonster09]

Wouldn’t the fact that if he retreats to RW and tracks back defensively there sugggest he has a defacto setting of operating on the RW. It’s symantics but he is sent out as a RW and allowed to do as he pleases in an attacking sense, popping up where ever he wants but this doesn’t take away from the fact he is deployed as our RW option.

No. Set up with and without possession is different. Manager and player both confirmed it, don't think it cane be more obvious than that.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

No. Set up with and without possession is different. Manager and player both confirmed it, don't think it cane be more obvious than that.

No it isn’t. Set up is set up, does he or does he not predominantly shift to the RW whilst defending? Does he or does he not along with Mata start from the RW and allowed the freedom to drift where he wants?

You can’t just separate defending and attacking because one disproves the notion that he is a RW that has complete freedom to go where he wants offensively. It’s like saying Rashford isn’t a striker currently because he’ll pop up on the right or left.

 

[andersj]

You're arguing with yourself or ignoring what I'm saying so that your point has some legs. You understand I'm not saying he's de facto a RW but rather by default he occupies that position, both on the pitch (albeit he's got a lot of freedom and he roams around) and on paper.

And the only reason he's starting there is because we have no actual RW.

You came in quite arrogant and now you're backpedaling and constantly ignoring the fact I never said he playing exclusively as a RW.

I started with a question. If you agree that Lingard did not play right winger that is great. Maybe I misunderstood you. But several of the posters I quoted obviously believed he played right winger something that was not the case.

 

[andersj]

No it isn’t. Set up is set up, does he or does he not predominantly shift to the RW whilst defending? Does he or does he not along with Mata start from the RW and allowed the freedom to drift where he wants

He does not.

 

[Fracture90]

I started with a question. If you agree that Lingard did not play right winger that is great. Maybe I misunderstood you. But several of the posters I quoted obviously believed he played right winger something that was not the case.

Won't comment on your explanation regarding the manner in which you replied .

Let me put it like this, Lingard occupies the RW spot in our team, although it isn't a nailed on position like for example CB, LB, DMF, he still spends a large portion of his playing time as a RW, therefore he's by vocation a RW in our setup and on our teamsheet and the position that gets him into starting 11. Now if we go and get a proper RW, that RW won't replace Ander Herrera or Martial in team because "Lingard isn't exclusively playing RW".