Since you like his stats, here is another one for you. In 3215 minutes he has 5 goals and 5 assists or simply put a goal or an assist every 321 minutes played, or every 3.57 games played our attacker provided a goal or an assist. I'm not going to tell you what is acceptable or not, but that is a pathetic stat. And then you can forget stats and go and watch him play 90 minutes against solid opposition, also remember that the guy is 25 and payed 100k+ a week to not be able to dribble and beat a man, can't execute a through pass most of the time. You will realize this guy is winning the lottery, as he is nowhere near good enough not even to be a squad player.
14
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 13
- Assists
- 8
- Yellow cards
- 4
- Status
Not sure why you are considering his PL stats only, he isn't back up player only in PL. He is squad player for all competitions.
Edit: 3215 mins is 35 games, 10 goals+assist is a decent stat for a back up player.
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The difference is that when Mkhitaryan has off days he is as you say dire. Lingard has off days 90% of the time, pops up with two goals against Swansea in the league cup and suddenly he is a better option than Mkhitaryan. Lingard was as I said as bad as anyone last Saturday.
How can somebody watch Lingard and Mkhitaryan and say Mkhi's bottom level is much lower that Lingard's? What is Lingard's top level? Was it against Swansea? Because his overall game was not good enough, and against better opposition it will be evident on the result. What is his bottom level also ? Is it when he can't beat a man to save his life? Or when he can't execute a through ball? Because he can't provide those things even when he is at top level, if the one against Swansea was one of those, never mind bottom level.
Mkhitaryan isn't having a good season, and yet he scored goals and assisted against better opposition so far, even by those off form performances were better than Lingard's. Lingard scored two goals in the league cup, in a game Swansea first threatened our goal in 93rd minute.
I agree with your stats that his output has been really poor for someone occupying one of the attacking positions, regardless of whether is a squad player or not. But don't agree with the bolded part - if was someone like Park for us who played tactical roles for us but was also decent in scoring goals, it would be perfect. Doesn't matter that he can't beat a man etc. Neither could Park do it. Nor does 100k+ matter really when you consider the inflation. All we need is for him to be able to participate in the flow of attack and sometimes come up with better effectiveness in goal.
Maybe because i don't want games against Burton and half asleep Swansea to be used to show us if a United attacker is good enough or not.
5 goals and 5 assists in 35 games is a good stat for a Manchester United attacker? Are you serious? Heung-Min Son just for comparison in 3519 minutes played has 19 goals and 10 assist, spawned in 70 appearances. Now do your math please.
Park was on another level, to Lingard. Much more useful player who played deeper with incredible stamina and alongside a much better attack that carried the burden of scoring goals. Not to mention his knack of big game performances and even then I would say he was a better attacker than Jesse.
That part about Park playing in a much better attack and Lingard playing in this team is very important in my opinion. If you look back couple of posts, I mentioned in the context of the debate that in this current team we can not afford to play an unproductive player like Lingard. Maybe back than he could have been a much better option.
And 100k on a player of Lingard's ability and contribution I can't find a reason to justify that, and yeah even with the inflation.
I said good enough for back up player. For example, club that won 2 league titles in 3 years Chelsea have Willian who has recorded 33 goals + assists in 9900 mins. That's goal or assist in every 300 mins.
Ya I agree with you. I give him another year (this one) to prove himself but if he has a similar overall year as the last one, he should be replaced. But mind you the Swansea game was encouraging regardless of the tournament or opposition.
Yes a back up player, I said in my opinion he isn't even good enough for that. And let's not get into stats, as I said it's not the whole picture. By the way that Willian stat is not correct anyway, he has 38 goals/assist in 8943 minutes which is considerably a much better stat, not to mention his Champions League stat which is even better.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against him, with him you can never fault his effort, ultimately it's on those who pick him to play, and they make mistakes as all people and professionals do. If his starts on Saturday, I fecking hope he makes me eat my words and scores a hat-trick so we win. But based on what I've seen from him so far, it's more likely we play with an attacker less from the start.
Check in the official premier league site, he has 19 goals and 14 assists.
Our first choice players barely score or assist 10 goals in a season, can't expect back up player who comes on and plays last few mins to have better record than that. Lingard usually plays in cups which means first choice players gets the rest.
Edit: Btw Lingard scoring against Burton or half slept Swansea doesn't count but we have to consider Willian scoring against mighty teams like M. Tel Aviv, Dynamo Kyiv, Steaua Bukarest.
I used transfermarkt till now, and there wasn't a problem up till now. And it's not that important really, Willian is a much better player than Lingard with or without a stat showing it.
You speaking about our first choice players scoring or assisting 10 goals a season is very interesting. Have you thought that maybe part of the problem in us scoring so few goals in the last couple of years is because a player Lingard abilities made 42 appearances? Mkhi made 41, but 300 more minuted played, in which he contributed 11 goals and 5 assists.
That last part I will pretend i didn't see, as you compared a League 1 team to teams that play Champions/Europa League football. Willian is a much better player than Lingard, this stats thing I think we got over it with the Iniesta example. Shame for Lingard and some on here, not even the stats hold any argument for him, and if you objectively watch him for 90 minutes, it's obvious he is nowhere near Manchester United standard.
I'd imagine his numbers are very similar to Park's. And as was often said back then: neither are productive enough for a Manchester United attacking midfield, much less a winger.
Park's energy was definitely useful, and he put in a few good trademark performances against Pirlo. But I don't like this re-writing of his 'legacy'. He barely ever scored or assisted, and in most games was the obvious flaw in an otherwise star-studded attacking lineup. I remember doing the numbers in I believe his second-to-last season with us and we were 3x as likely to drop points if he started as when he didn't.
He's fondly remembered because the team was successful and he seems an awesome chap (Tevez luvs Evra luvs Park 4eva) but compared to options like Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Nani...he doesn't deserve to be in the same company.
And nor does Lingard.
Listen we'll keep him cause he's local, happy, and is likely a teachers pet. But if was available from another club no one would even mention United as a transfer rumour. His numbers, performances and quality are not what we'd want to sign.
If he's making 40 odd appearances for us in a season, that's an indictment of our attacking issues.
Park's energy was definitely useful, and he put in a few good trademark performances against Pirlo. But I don't like this re-writing of his 'legacy'. He barely ever scored or assisted, and in most games was the obvious flaw in an otherwise star-studded attacking lineup. I remember doing the numbers in I believe his second-to-last season with us and we were 3x as likely to drop points if he started as when he didn't.
He's fondly remembered because the team was successful and he seems an awesome chap (Tevez luvs Evra luvs Park 4eva) but compared to options like Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Nani...he doesn't deserve to be in the same company.
And nor does Lingard.
Listen we'll keep him cause he's local, happy, and is likely a teachers pet. But if was available from another club no one would even mention United as a transfer rumour. His numbers, performances and quality are not what we'd want to sign.
If he's making 40 odd appearances for us in a season, that's an indictment of our attacking issues.
Nah your alright mate - no one is re-writing anything. Park was more than important for some of our most important games. Fact is that a team of tevez, Ronaldo, rooney & nani would be misjudging the abilities of players like pirlo.
Not everyone has to be an attacking AM; not everyone has to be this real Madrid type of superstar & definitely not every player has to be appreciated by the fans. LVG & José both seem to appreciate him, SAF seemed to have recognised some of his talents as a kid - Lingard may not be someone to shout about but if he can reach the levels of park did at his age then he would be more than useful in winning some of the matches that need that kind of player in that kind of position.
Let me guess you want griezmann to do the defensive work? Leave it - Lingard isn't here just because he is local; he is here because he is useful and too useful enough to just chuck away.
Park was solid for us.
people trying to justify Lingard in the side is one of a number of low standards that is now acceptable at the club. Lingard would play 90 mins, toil and huff for the majority of it yet creates nothing and barely scores. He is light weight, poor technically and poor in front of goal. People confuse him running around randomly as some intricate and well crafted play. I would, however, argue that he does this to disguise his ineffectiveness. United have a lot of these players who seemingly contribute nothing yet look like they do a lot. We keep giving them new contracts and I'm not sure why. Mctominay is another. Average footballer but is in the team for his height.
The fact someone is comparing Lingard to Park is laughable. 1. Park was in a much talented team and therefore his weaknesses which were no where near Lingard' s was disguised well. The current United's team needs quality, not much more squad players
The fact someone is comparing Lingard to Park is laughable. 1. Park was in a much talented team and therefore his weaknesses which were no where near Lingard' s was disguised well. The current United's team needs quality, not much more squad players
that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard. One minute players ain't working hard enough & the next someone is disguising their ineffectiveness.You used Lingard's "Pathetic stats" to prove your point and now stats are not that important?
Mkhitaryan scored 4 goals and 1 assist in 1352 mins, goal or assist every 275 mins
Mataa goal or assist every 180 mins, before last season it was 223 mins.
You can't just keep on changing the goal posts. You said league only and stick to it, not sure why you are using Mkhitaryan's overall goals and assists when you clearly mentioned Lingard's "pathetic league stats".
Also you can pretend to didn't see, Willian scoring against some shit league team is not any praise worthy than scoring in PL side in League cup.
Oh btw it's not me who started using stats to support or criticize the player. You want me to quote the post again?
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Try to read. I never said he wasn't working hard enough. At no point did I say this. I said he runs around a lot to hide his poor ability.
But he is United academy product!!!
The fact that shitty Lingard is earning over 100K is an attractive fact to bring in young talents into our academy.
100K wage is insured even after you fail to reach your potential! United 'insurance company' Academy.
Ummm... Really? Let's be slightly fairer to the lad. He never gives less than 100%, is a great player to have for Cups (can't argue his record in those) and his attitude is unquestionable. He's not valued for nothing by manager after manager - and Jose is not one to suffer fools. Each club that's in 4 competitions (seriously contending or hoping to) needs to have squad players as well and Jesse is someone that is happy to be a squad player while also providing goals, assists, a good attitude and not agitating for more money, more time etc.
He's not like Welbeck either - who just couldn't do his basic job most of the time. He does what is asked of him. Most academy graduates never reach our first team. He's made it there on merit (as judged by his managers and coaches who, let's face it, know a lot more than us). As for playing more than Mkhi last season, as admitted by Mkhi himself, he needed time to get fit enough.
And I also don't get why people look at the 100K and then choose to diss him for that. Would you be happy to be in the same position with respect to him, his playing time etc. if he were on 40K? If the manager and club value him at that level, how is that his fault?
First of all, I mentioned Lingard's stats and in the same sentence I mentioned that i don't like using stats to describe a player, just go and watch him play for 90 minutes. You are the one who first brought the goal/assist per minutes played ratio, and Lingard has worse than all of them. And 10 goals/assist in 58 appearances is PATHETIC, don't need the ''.
I used PL stats so far for all when I compared them, for Son, for Lingard, for Willian, the source is transfermarkt, since there were mentioned 58 apps, it's the total number in his career, so are the number for the rest, Premier League only pal. We were discussing squad players, and how did they contribute. So before you blame me for moving posts read carefully. You are the one who brought those shit teams in the discussion.
You mentioned how our first team players barely score/assist more than 10, i gave you Mkhi's total stats for last season, and how he contributed in one less appearance than Lingard, and 300 more minutes played, in total. Nobody moved the goal posts. That shows ''squad'' player Lingard compared to first team Mkhitaryan minutes played, and my point about us scoring so few and where part of the problem is at.
@roonster09 while stats are important, the attacking contribution of a player has other facets too. The minimum we would require from a squad/tactical player would be that he doesn't disrupt the flow when on the pitch, or alternatively he should be able to produce enough threat that the opposition still has to commit atleast one defender at him.
Last season, I felt there were many games where opposition would simply give Lingard acres of space and mark out Zlatan and Martial/Rashford, and this turned out to be quite an effective strategy to stop us from scoring. The last game was definitely good from him but we need a bit more consistency from him in league matches too.
Last season, I felt there were many games where opposition would simply give Lingard acres of space and mark out Zlatan and Martial/Rashford, and this turned out to be quite an effective strategy to stop us from scoring. The last game was definitely good from him but we need a bit more consistency from him in league matches too.
58 appearances
Talk about abusing stats. He was sub player so obviously you have to consider context. Take mins played and he has played around 35 games. I said Willian's stats are poor in PL and then you brought CL stats when previously you said "PL only" for Lingard. When you consider cup record his record is decent and ignoring cup record is illogical as he is used often in cup games rather than in league games.
Check last seasons stats for Mhitaryan, Mkhitaryan scored or assisted every 275 mins, for a squad player Lingard averages 320 mins, big deal. So yeah, our first choice wingers barely contributed 10 goals in a PL season.
Stop using "Go and watch him play for 90 mins" shit. Everyone on this forum watches him play. If you think a good player who can contribute 15-20 goals in a PL season is happy with back up role then you are missing the whole point. Lingard won't moan about playing time and he contributes in cup games, that's the point of the back up player.
I will keep this simple. You said Lingard's stats are pathetic even for a back up player, I gave you example of player who won 2 league titles in 3 seasons having similar stats in PL, he was more starter than back up player.
Also Son is not back up player. He started 23 league games last season and 6 out of 6 CL games and 4 games this season. So you are comparing first choice player stats with back up player.
He is barely playing in league games, so at least for now we don't have to worry about that. He is coming on a sub in last 10-15 mins. I agree he isn't good enough as starter for ManUtd but as a squad player he is.
Park was twice the player Lingard is. Plus he delivered in key Premier League and Champions League games. Lingard delivers in cup games only. He is terrible in the league.
I would wager he will start tomorrow so I think that will be the key to a more realistic view. Not the league cup with little pressure.
I would wager he will start tomorrow so I think that will be the key to a more realistic view. Not the league cup with little pressure.
Look pal, Willian stats are from the Premier League, I said not to mention Champions League as they are even better. Read carefully or don't waste my time.58 appearances
I said Willian's stats are poor in PL and then you brought CL stats when previously you said "PL only" for Lingard. When you consider cup record his record is decent and ignoring cup record is illogical as he is used often in cup games rather than in league games.
Check last seasons stats for Mhitaryan, Mkhitaryan scored or assisted every 275 mins, for a squad player Lingard averages 320 mins, big deal. So yeah, our first choice wingers barely contributed 10 goals in a PL season.
Stop using "Go and watch him play for 90 mins" shit. Everyone on this forum watches him play. If you think a good player who can contribute 15-20 goals in a PL season is happy with back up role then you are missing the whole point. Lingard won't moan about playing time and he contributes in cup games, that's the point of the back up player.
I will keep this simple. You said Lingard's stats are pathetic even for a back up player, I gave you example of player who won 2 league titles in 3 seasons having similar stats in PL, he was more starter than back up player.
Also Son is not back up player. He started 23 league games last season and 6 out of 6 CL games and 4 games this season. So you are comparing first choice player stats with back up player.
Take minutes played? Didn't we go over that just a few posts ago? Didn't you get that? Willian in last season in the PL, 1529 minutes played 10 goals/assist, a goal or an assist every 153 minutes. Lingard's last season in the PL 1366 minutes played, 3 goals/assists, a goal or an assist every 455 minute. Mkhitaryan stats in the PL last season, 1349 minutes played 5 goals/assists, or every 270 minutes.
You said our starters barely score and assist 10 in a season, I understood that as in all competitions therefor i gave you Mkhitaryans's last season stats, It was a misunderstanding if there is one. I also said pathetic stats for his PL career which is true. In 1366 minutes last season has has a goal and an assist? Isn't that pathetic also? That is good enough to be a squad player for Manchester United?
Regarding Son, you are right, he isn't a squad player. He was, he forced himself into the team, also unjuries to Lamela played in his favor, but that is the point of squad players in big teams, to push the first team and take their place if they offer more. I also compared their minutes played and the Korean has played 500 more minutes in the PL, scored 19 goals and assisted 10, Lingard has scored 5 and assisted 5 which was mentioned originally.
Willian stats in his PL career again, 8943 , 19 goals, 19 assists, or every 235 minutes. Lingard stats, a goal or an assist every 321 minutes played. I'm not sure what is the problem? You beat yourself with the Willian stats.
This ''watch him play for 90 minutes shit'' you can take it to some other discussion, a shitty one, you are wasting my time.
In Premier league Willian has 33 goals + assists, not sure why you are bothered with 3rd party site when the official site gives the exact stats. So yeah his mins per Goal + assists in around 300 in his PL career.
You are again probing my point. Mkhitaryan's mins per Goal + assist was 270 and he is our first choice player, that's my point from the begining. Our first choice players are struggling to contribute 10 goals + assists in PL season, so not sure how logical it is to expect that from back up player.
Son wasn't a back up player, he was big signing for Spurs, took time to adapt and now he is playing superbly.
Also i didn't say Lingard is better than Willian, there is hardly any difference in their mins per Goal + assist in PL career. Willian was first choice player till last season and he won 2 league titles in last 3 seasons. Lingard was always back up player.
Wasting your time?
Were you threatened with ban if you don't reply or you are doing any productive work logging to Redcafe and posting on other threads? If it is bothering you so much then you can stop replying rather than replying and moaning about wasting time.I know every dog has it’s day but could you imagine the collective tug fest if say Rashford had scored that. Papers, fans, pundits would be beating themselves senseless. What a strike and goal.
It’s a phenomenal hit. Love it when a long range strike is so good the keeper doesn’t even dive.
Whichever way people try to spin it, that is woeful. Smalling had the same from less games which tells a story in itself.
He needs to seriously improve his output this season. Even as a squad player he needs to be averaging at least 5 goals + 5 assists in the league.
It’s the general casual approach to it as well. No one closes him down and you just know he’s kinda looking for a past and then Just thinks oh well, fook it!!
I’d like to think in his head he is having a “This is SPARTAAAAAAAAH!!!” Moment. Maybe “I am LINGAAAAARD!!!!!”
In Premier league Willian has 33 goals + assists, not sure why you are bothered with 3rd party site when the official site gives the exact stats. So yeah his mins per Goal + assists in around 300 in his PL career.
You are again probing my point. Mkhitaryan's mins per Goal + assist was 270 and he is our first choice player, that's my point from the begining. Our first choice players are struggling to contribute 10 goals + assists in PL season, so not sure how logical it is to expect that from back up player.
Son wasn't a back up player, he was big signing for Spurs, took time to adapt and now he is playing superbly.
Also i didn't say Lingard is better than Willian, there is hardly any difference in their mins per Goal + assist in PL career. Willian was first choice player till last season and he won 2 league titles in last 3 seasons. Lingard was always back up player.
Wasting your time?
You are wasting my time when you are trying to twist stats and facts in your favor. Couple of posts back and you are still banging the same drum. I wouldn't say that if you didn't make me to repeat myself time and time again. And you can not have a productive discussion if you keep going back and forth. I use Transfermarkt because it is simple and easier, and was correct till now, it's a good site. If there is a mistake I need to look at it again since I never had a problem.
Our first choice Mkhitaryan played 20 minutes less than our squad player Lingard in the Premier League. So you can stop banging about how Mkhitaryan stats are similar as he has played same number of football, which can be said that both of them were squad players last season, because they played similar amount of football.
Regarding the 10 goals/assist in the PL, as I said I took it as total, therefor the Mkhi total stats. 10 goals/assist in the PL is a good amount for a squad player, Lingard had 3 last year, irrelevant of Mkhitaryan's 5, even that it's mathematically almost double in less amount of football.
And once again in the PL last season:
- Lingard last season: in the PL 1366 minutes played, 3 goals/assists, a goal or an assist every 455 minute.
- Willian in last season in the PL, 1529 minutes played 10 goals/assist, a goal or an assist every 153 minutes.
- Mkhitaryan stats in the PL last season, 1349 minutes played 5 goals/assists, or every 270 minutes.
Even by your stats about Willian with 33 goals/assist it's 271, and Lingard on 321. You are describing them as similar, a 50 minutes difference is an hour of football by Lingard, filled with good movement or as I like to say, doing feck all running around and 3 meter passes in the middle of the pitch.
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Why you are going on and on about last season when you started with this PL career? Once again changing goal posts now?
Meh can't be arsed anymore when someone ignores the official stats but believes some third party site which records assists even for winning free kick which is converted.
It's embarrassing and people overlook that it's part of the problem that we have scoring goals. We have very inconsistent and limited players playing in our attack. Lingard is limited, Mkhitaryan is hot and cold, and always will be, we have to hope he turns up in games so we have a good enough player behind Lukaku.
We didn't score enough goals - throughout the team - last season so I'm not sure why you're focussing on Lingard. We were far too reliant on Ibra with not enough other players chipping in. This season we've looked better in front of goal and the goals are being shared around. Lingard hasn't started many games but when he has he's looked a threat.
Is it too much to ask that we judge players on the here and now? Lingard's at an age where he could and should keep improving over the next few years. He's a local lad who cost us nothing and just scored two cracking goals to get us through to the next round of the League Cup. I'm sure the manager is very happy with his contribution this season and is optimistic about him being a more and more valuable player in the future. The fans should be too.
To be fair that was a nice goal but it's not something he regularly does unfortunately, was more of a rarity.
This is the Lingard thread if I'm not mistaken, that is why I'm focusing on him as it was brought up in the discussion. I said it was part of the problem, other part of the problem is the so called first-team players like Mkhitaryan are very inconsistent, as was our way of playing with Ibra on which i agree with you. Lingard has played much less this season, which is understandable and as it should be.
On the part that he's looked like a threat I won't agree. He started in our two defeats this season, and looked nowhere like a threat. He looked good against Burton and scored two very good goals against Swansea, but his overall game was average as usual. And that is me being objective as I could be. He failed simple through balls, can't beat a man 4/5 times and that against better and more organized opposition will be punished and evident.
He is judged on the here and now. He is 25 in a month, he is as good as he will ever be, which is not good enough. You can improve as much, you can't improve your natural ability at 25. Maybe some on here have different definition of squad player, but I don't think we should have squad players who can only contribute as little as Lingard. I'm all for giving chances to our youth as long as they are good enough or are going to be good enough. Lingard is not good enough and at 25 will never be, in this present situation he does more against our youth policy than in favor of it.
Managers can be wrong too, and you can always form your own judgement. The fans will be happy when we are back at winning titles and our attack is filled with attackers who will bring those titles here, not when the manager and DOF are happy with giving 100k a week to Lingard to contribute a little as he has done.
That was the only goal he scored in the PL last season, guess we might be in for a ride this season.
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