[antohan]

No I don't agree with you @antohan. We have all seen many a mature player lack composure and many a young player have it. It's vital in technique and yes it can come with experience but not always. The same goes with decision making but to a lesser extent as I agree experience is a big factor here. Though Lingard will be 25 this year and he is not a kid like Rashford who is like 5 years his junior.

I wouldn't say composure is technique but a mental attribute greatly aided by technique. The better you are on the ball, controlling it, first touch, etc. the more resourceful you are and the harder it will be to cock things up, but composure is in the head and even with great technique you could completely lack it. I relate it to maturity, not age, and confidence of course (all interrelated but not necessarily correlated).

Take Forlán, he sure had the technique but people still called him a confidence player needing extended runs. Fact is he had landed at Manchester United out of nowhere and wasn't ready to handle it. The moment he went to Villarreal he started finding his footing and next thing you know he was a double European Golden Foot and World Cup Golden Ball (probably the most deserved in a couple of decades).

 

[Raoul]

@Raoul I want to know your opinion about Lingard. Maybe you can write a good post which analyzes Lingard's performance and his value to the team instead of saying that other's posts are "knee-jerk reactions". And we might also learn a thing or two about how to write "quality" posts.

I sense a bit of unimaginative sarcasm there. They type that won't get you too far.

 

[Lawman]

I said earlier in the season that Jesse Lingard was the gatekeeper for our wide positions. "He sets the minimum requirements in terms of work rate, determination, discipline. He's always threatening those guys who are more talented and keeping them honest." At the time he had seen off Januzaj, Memphis, Rooney. But honestly I never thought at this stage in the season he would be keeping Martial and Mkhitaryan at bay. Reality is he shouldn't. A consistent, hard working Martial or Mkhitaryan of last year shouldn't be giving Lingard a look in. The fact that our other attackers aren't performing is Lingard's biggest problem in terms of how he is being viewed by some of the fans.

People seem to fall into one of two or three mind-sets. Those who don't see what Lingard brings because they don't have the intelligence to see it during a match, or to read what others see, or to watch a video that explains it ("yeah but no but yeah that video uses a really bad font, so anything they say isn't even valid anyway"). Those who see what he brings, but don't value that side of the game. Finally those who see what he brings, appreciate it, but still wish that we had better.

Oh yeah and stop bringing up the name/nationality thing as the reason people don't rate him... it's utter nonsense.

This is just embarrassing you're doing a Ray Wilkins impersonation here. I know plenty knowledgeable fans who have the opinion he's not what United need if they want to get back to the top again. I'd bet my bottom dollar he'll see less and less game time over the next two seasons.

 

[antohan]

Why should anyone really give a damn about the academy? I've followed Utd since 2004 and Welbeck is the only player we've produced in that time who's even top 10 quality. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Rashford is the only real prospect I've seen in 13 years. Other than him, when was the last time a Utd academy product became a mainstay for England? Or even a regular in our team.

The days of relying on the academy are over. It's not feasible if we want to be competitive. Lingard is nowhere near the required standard, neither was Gibson, Wilson, Cleverly, Eagles, Richardson etc. There needs to be some serious investment in the academy for it to become important again.

Giuseppe Rossi
Michael Keane isn't doing badly, some even want him back ahead of Smalling/Jones
Ryan Shawcross also Top 10 quality
Drinkwater won the league last year as a key player for Leicester

Not sure what you want here, the sort of output Barca had over the last couple of decades? The problem is the raw material, not the investment in the academy.

Edit: not including Paul Pogba or Gerard Pique

 

[antohan]

I think with some improvement and better players around him, he could be a useful 'last resort' and useful after some injuries etc but I'm interested to see why so many people feel being 6/10 every week is somehow something to be applauded in a Manchester United player.

You read so many comments and threads going on about the smallest of tactics and body language analysis etc but the simple reason we are below the top four and looking miles of a title winning team is that we have far too many 6/10 players - I'd be delighted if Lingard was replaced with a 9/10 one, regardless of anything else.

That's true

This is just embarrassing you're doing a Ray Wilkins impersonation here. I know plenty knowledgeable fans who have the opinion he's not what United need if they want to get back to the top again. I'd bet my bottom dollar he'll see less and less game time over the next two seasons.

And he should.

I doubt anyone on here is arguing he is a world beater we should build the team around. What people are arguing is he is a good squad player, with the right qualities to provide the sort of service we used to get from the likes of O'Shea... but also a Darren Fletcher that surprised everyone turning into beast mode. Those who get uppity in his defence (myself included) do so because he is valuable in that way and it grates to see a zillion spoilt fans running him down constantly and calling for him to be "upgraded" even as a squad player.

He does his job well enough. So much so that despite Martial and Mkhitaryan having a higher top level, Jose is preferring him more often and you can see why. It's similar to Scholes and his infamous bottom level, Lingard can miss a couple of chances but always is useful while Martial and Mkhitaryan sometimes may as well not even be on the pitch. You may not like it, but that's what it is. José has always been very clear about what he wants from his players and it explains why Lingard plays to a T. Lately, you can also add he clearly has a better understanding both with Pogba and Rashford, both absolutely key players for us right now.

Should we be planning for him to be part of the XI next year? I don't think anyone on here expects that, the difference is some appreciate his value to the squad and others seem to want a squad of superstars with like for like subs.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Getting cringy in here. "If you don't rate Lingard you're intelligent". Christ.

 

[SachinJ22]

I sense a bit of unimaginative sarcasm there. They type that won't get you too far.

There is a little bit of sarcasm involved there, but I seriously want to know opinion about Lingard. I am sure there are other people also who might want to know your opinion.

 

[Raoul]

There is a little bit of sarcasm involved there, but I seriously want to know opinion about Lingard. I am sure there are other people also who might want to know your opinion.

Well fortunately for you, you happened to have asked the question on page 120 of a thread specifically dedicated to Lingard. Feel free to peruse the nearly 5,000 posts to your heart's content.

 

[Robbie Boy]

As I said before; if we were a fully functioning unit - like in the Fergie era - Lingard would be absolutely fine as a squad player.

However, right now, he is starting a-lot and when we need him to create, he comes up short far too often.

 

[Raoul]

As I said before; if we were a fully functioning unit - like in the Fergie era - Lingard would be absolutely fine as a squad player.

However, right now, he is starting a-lot and when we need him to create, he comes up short far too often.

Thats a fair assessment. I view him as as squad player who has been cast into more of a starting role because we are thin in attack due to injuries and the fixture pileup.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Thats a fair assessment. I view him as as squad player who has been cast into more of a starting role because we are thin in attack due to injuries and the fixture pileup.

I have no issue with him as a squad player at all and going forward he will surely get less playing time than he has these past two seasons. He's shown that as a starter he's not up to the task of creating / scoring on a regular basis. He would be a good option from the bench or in games where we need him as a tactical pawn.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

As I said before; if we were a fully functioning unit - like in the Fergie era - Lingard would be absolutely fine as a squad player.

However, right now, he is starting a-lot and when we need him to create, he comes up short far too often.

Agree, but if someone is good enough to perform a certain role in a top tier(Fergie era) team then he is not the problem isnt he? The problem are the players that keep him in the team, ones that should be starting week by week based on their talent.
But raoul is right, he wouldnt be starting as much as he is now if we didnt have so much injuries in a busy period of the season.

 

[SachinJ22]

Well fortunately for you, you happened to have asked the question on page 120 of a thread specifically dedicated to Lingard. Feel free to peruse the nearly 5,000 posts to your heart's content.

I would peruse the 5,000 posts but most of those posts are horrible (read anti-Lingard) . I don't have the patience to go through so many horrible posts just to find one quality post.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Agree, but if someone is good enough to perform a certain role in a top tier(Fergie era) team then he is not the problem isnt he? The problem are the players that keep him in the team, ones that should be starting week by week based on their talent.
But raoul is right, he wouldnt be starting as much as he is now if we didnt have so much injuries in a busy period of the season.

Can't disagree with that. Though my issue is that Lingard seems to get picked after poor performances whereas the likes of Martial and Mkhitaryan have often been benched after similar performances. But that's Mourinho's call and he's obviously harder on the other two as they are big money signings / the more talented players.

Going forward I hope we sort our shit out and become a good cohesive attacking unit again. In that kind of setup, Lingard can play a role as a squad player and onus will be on the more talented players to step up to the plate and nail down starting berths.

 

[Philadelphian]

Thats a fair assessment. I view him as as squad player who has been cast into more of a starting role because we are thin in attack due to injuries and the fixture pileup.

Agreed. Only so polarizing because he's been thrust into the spotlight of being a starter at United. This thread would look a whole lot different if we had the necessary quality ahead of him in the squad. Just the # of pages in here alone says it all. Jesse doesn't yet, and may not ever, warrant this amount of attention. Not his fault he's in this team or being asked to do so much.

If he somehow remains in the spotlight next year however due to a lackluster transfer window...well I think I would have to block myself from his performance thread.

 

[Mr.Plow]

Giuseppe Rossi
Michael Keane isn't doing badly, some even want him back ahead of Smalling/Jones
Ryan Shawcross also Top 10 quality
Drinkwater won the league last year as a key player for Leicester

Not sure what you want here, the sort of output Barca had over the last couple of decades? The problem is the raw material, not the investment in the academy.

Edit: not including Paul Pogba or Gerard Pique

Pogba, Rossi, Januzaj and Pique are just as much the product of other academies as ours. I agree it's a problem with the raw materials and that's why the best players to have played in the academy are young foreign players we've signed from other clubs.

I don't want or expect anything from the academy, I'm just making the point that it can't be relied upon. It's been a production line of mediocrity for several years now, Lingard being the latest example.

 

[Lawman]

That's true



And he should.

I doubt anyone on here is arguing he is a world beater we should build the team around. What people are arguing is he is a good squad player, with the right qualities to provide the sort of service we used to get from the likes of O'Shea... but also a Darren Fletcher that surprised everyone turning into beast mode. Those who get uppity in his defence (myself included) do so because he is valuable in that way and it grates to see a zillion spoilt fans running him down constantly and calling for him to be "upgraded" even as a squad player.

He does his job well enough. So much so that despite Martial and Mkhitaryan having a higher top level, Jose is preferring him more often and you can see why. It's similar to Scholes and his infamous bottom level, Lingard can miss a couple of chances but always is useful while Martial and Mkhitaryan sometimes may as well not even be on the pitch. You may not like it, but that's what it is. José has always been very clear about what he wants from his players and it explains why Lingard plays to a T. Lately, you can also add he clearly has a better understanding both with Pogba and Rashford, both absolutely key players for us right now.

Should we be planning for him to be part of the XI next year? I don't think anyone on here expects that, the difference is some appreciate his value to the squad and others seem to want a squad of superstars with like for like subs.

I get the squad player thing with Fletcher and O'shea but they were stoppers. Both very good players for us. But as an attacker you need to be special at United and unfortunately his goal record and assist record just isn't up to scratch in fact his overall output is not great. He's filling a hole right now but we are struggling because we can't finish teams off and Lingard is a huge part of this. Put it this way take him out and add 10 more goals and 7-8 assists that would make a huge difference in our league position and overall confidence.

 

[TheBiggest]

11 players with Lingard's ability and we'd probably be a championship side.

Hope you feel better after your rant, however.

This post made me feel pity for you.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Agree, but if someone is good enough to perform a certain role in a top tier(Fergie era) team then he is not the problem isnt he? The problem are the players that keep him in the team, ones that should be starting week by week based on their talent.
But raoul is right, he wouldnt be starting as much as he is now if we didnt have so much injuries in a busy period of the season.

The only injury in Lingard's position has been Mata and that is only recent and he's back so excuse number 789 doesn't work either

 

[Raoul]

Agreed. Only so polarizing because he's been thrust into the spotlight of being a starter at United. This thread would look a whole lot different if we had the necessary quality ahead of him in the squad. Just the # of pages in here alone says it all. Jesse doesn't yet, and may not ever, warrant this amount of attention. Not his fault he's in this team or being asked to do so much.

If he somehow remains in the spotlight next year however due to a lackluster transfer window...well I think I would have to block myself from his performance thread.

I'm sure he will be with us and probably in more of a traditional squad player role. If we are looking at players like Griezmann, Bernardo Silva, Semedo (different positions but all quality attackers), then Jesse will have a bit more of a limited role next year.

 

[SirScholes]

We

This post made me feel pity for you.

he isn't wrong tbf

 

[antohan]

Pogba, Rossi, Januzaj and Pique are just as much the product of other academies as ours. I agree it's a problem with the raw materials and that's why the best players to have played in the academy are young foreign players we've signed from other clubs.

I don't want or expect anything from the academy, I'm just making the point that it can't be relied upon. It's been a production line of mediocrity for several years now, Lingard being the latest example.

Thus the edit with Pogba and Piqué (left Rossi out as he was in the original post).

Point being that it can snatch and finish some great emerging players but primarily it is a production line for midtable English talent or good squad players.

We won't produce gems end-to-end regularly. England doesn't.

 

[antohan]

I get the squad player thing with Fletcher and O'shea but they were stoppers. Both very good players for us. But as an attacker you need to be special at United and unfortunately his goal record and assist record just isn't up to scratch in fact his overall output is not great. He's filling a hole right now but we are struggling because we can't finish teams off and Lingard is a huge part of this. Put it this way take him out and add 10 more goals and 7-8 assists that would make a huge difference in our league position and overall confidence.

Mkhi and Martial were meant to do that. Unfortunately they've been blowing hot and cold all season. They go from an 8-9 game to a 4-5 and I can see why Mourinho prioritises getting a 6 every game with the odd 7.

The only injury in Lingard's position has been Mata and that is only recent and he's back so excuse number 789 doesn't work either

See above.

 

[Marcus]

I have a lot of time for Lingard. Yes, he frustrates. Yes, his final product and shot is sometimes off. But he covers ground. He helps the attack and defence. He is the utility man. That is his job and he runs himself into the ground for the team. When you sprint and sprint and sprint, there will be sharpness lost. There will be composure lost. Of course he will not have a killer's eye for goal. He is barely able to catch his breath. It's not like he is Jean Pierre Papin who thinks that the whole team should work to serve his goalscoring opportunity and he just puts it away like a maestro.

 

[Lawman]

Mkhi and Martial were meant to do that. Unfortunately they've been blowing hot and cold all season. They go from an 8-9 game to a 4-5 and I can see why Mourinho prioritises getting a 6 every game with the odd 7.



See above.

He's not a 6 every game though he's more like a 4-5. He bluntens our attack to severely to be a regular. I'm happy to have him as a squad player at very best perhaps starting half a dozen games a season and seeing games out but I don't think anything more than that. Will he improve not enough to merit any more from what I've seen so far.

 

[Lawman]

I have a lot of time for Lingard. Yes, he frustrates. Yes, his final product and shot is sometimes off. But he covers ground. He helps the attack and defence. He is the utility man. That is his job and he runs himself into the ground for the team. When you sprint and sprint and sprint, there will be sharpness lost. There will be composure lost. Of course he will not have a killer's eye for goal. He is barely able to catch his breath. It's not like he is Jean Pierre Papin who thinks that the whole team should work to serve his goalscoring opportunity and he just puts it away like a maestro.

We should not have utility attackers at Manchester United.

 

[TheBiggest]

We have signed, as attacking wide players in the past three years, Memphis Depay, Angel di Maria, Anthony Martial and Henrik Mkhitaryan for a combined fee of £175million and Jesse Lingard has been better than all of them. His work-rate, his discipline, his commitment, his link-up play, the identity he gives to our club (which is sorely lacking) and his contribution to important goals is valued by people who understand the sport, clearly not by the average fan on an internet forum who would much rather we threw another £60m at a problem that isn't even there.

The idea of 'get Lingard out of the team and buy some hotshot from Europe' is such a lazy football opinion that it became tiresome a generation ago...

 

[stevoc]

This post made me feel pity for you.

Instead of doubling down on the sanctimonious nonsense why don't you argue your case if you really believe in the statements you are making here.

The assertion that we would be in a better position if we fielded 11 players with Lingards attributes every week is at best overly romantic hyperbole in defence of a player and at worst utter nonsense. People have every right to challenge that sort of statement.

So you could back this opinion up and show if there was some actual thought and reasoning behind it or i suppose you could just continue talking down to people.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Mkhi and Martial were meant to do that. Unfortunately they've been blowing hot and cold all season. They go from an 8-9 game to a 4-5 and I can see why Mourinho prioritises getting a 6 every game with the odd 7.



See above.

Firstly Lingard averages around 5 and never gets an 8 or 9 and secondly the excuse was injuries

 

[Philadelphian]

We have signed, as attacking wide players in the past three years, Memphis Depay, Angel di Maria, Anthony Martial and Henrik Mkhitaryan for a combined fee of £175million and Jesse Lingard has been better than all of them. His work-rate, his discipline, his commitment, his link-up play, the identity he gives to our club (which is sorely lacking) and his contribution to important goals is valued by people who understand the sport, clearly not by the average fan on an internet forum who would much rather we threw another £60m at a problem that isn't even there.

The idea of 'get Lingard out of the team and buy some hotshot from Europe' is such a lazy football opinion that it became tiresome a generation ago...

Valued by people who understand the sport? Come on. Of those players you mentioned only Depay offered less than Lingard. You're clearly confusing dedication with output. Output gets results. Laughable post.

 

[TheBiggest]

Valued by people who understand the sport? Come on. Of those players you mentioned only Depay offered less than Lingard. You're clearly confusing dedication with output. Output gets results. Laughable post.

I betcha any money you have that Alex Ferguson and Jose Mouirnho - as well as the other two managers we had in between - would value Jesse Lingard's value over all of those players.

To even assume we know better than Jose Mouinrho speaks volumes to the ignorance of some fans here. Ferguson told Lingard he would become a regular in our team when he turns 23/24, which he has. Jose Mourinho picks Lingard over Miki and Martial for a reason.

It amzes me how fans look at players like Miki and think they are better value to us than a player like Lingard. It's a clear misguided judgement. You are judging based on an odd bit of skill that Miki/Martial can do...you are not judging teh whole picture.

Take note of this:

A player - any player, in any match - only has the ball at his feet for 2% of the entire 90-minutes. Fans - for some unknown reason - only seem to judge the players on that 2%. It's all they can see. I don't know why that is, but it is the truth. What about the other 98% of the game? Do they just take that time off when the ball isn't with them? Of course not! That's where proper players earn their 100k a week. Players like Jesse Lingard. Jose Mouirnho clearly has strict instructions for his wide attacking players that neother Miki or Martial can do to his liking. Yes, they may have more natural skill on the ball than Jesse, yes they may be able to score scorpion kicks once every five seasons, but for pure discipline, for making every percentage of your time on the pitch count (not just the 2% of the time you are on the ball) Lingard pisses over the contributions of Miki and Martial - as well as Di Maria and Depay when they were at our club.

But of course, the fans bad-mouthing Jesse on thsi thread are living proof that fans only judge what they see ON THE BALL. You are OFF THE BALL fifty times more than you are on it...and it's that discipline that is courted by managers Not a scorpion kick or a beat-three-men and score goal that Miki/Depay/Di Maria/Martial offer up once every 38-games.

 

[Mr.Plow]

Thus the edit with Pogba and Piqué (left Rossi out as he was in the original post).

Point being that it can snatch and finish some great emerging players but primarily it is a production line for midtable English talent or good squad players.

We won't produce gems end-to-end regularly. England doesn't.

Well I guess we agree on everything. Good day to you sir!

 

[Philadelphian]

I betcha any money you have that Alex Ferguson and Jose Mouirnho - as well as the other two managers we had in between - would value Jesse Lingard's value over all of those players.

To even assume we know better than Jose Mouinrho speaks volumes to the ignorance of some fans here.

In two sentences you've assumed to know what managers think and said it's ignorant to assume to know what managers think.

Your post before that intimated that Jesse was better than players he is clearly not better than. He'd need 4 season to match what Martial did last year, maybe more. In a handful of games di Maria created more for us and Henrikh just simply has better numbers.

I can see that he moves well and understands space, but to act like that is creating goals for us indirectly is silly because we're hardly scoring and he's rarely a part of our scoring moves.

Some people underestimate him significantly but you've gone the opposite way.

 

[TheBiggest]

In two sentences you've assumed to know what managers think and said it's ignorant to assume to know what managers think.

Your post before that intimated that Jesse was better than players he is clearly not better than. He'd need 4 season to match what Martial did last year, maybe more. In a handful of games di Maria created more for us and Henrikh just simply has better numbers.

I can see that he moves well and understands space, but to act like that is creating goals for us indirectly is silly because we're hardly scoring and he's rarely a part of our scoring moves.

Some people underestimate him significantly but you've gone the opposite way.

Read the whole post and learn somet.

 

[Verminator]

Valued by people who understand the sport? Come on. Of those players you mentioned only Depay offered less than Lingard. You're clearly confusing dedication with output. Output gets results. Laughable post.

You ask the question and then fail to explore it.
He is respected by his manager, team mates, pundits and has played for his country at all levels.
People in the game seem to rate him, but what do they know?

 

[antohan]

We should not have utility attackers at Manchester United.

Park? A notch above, granted.

 

[Raoul]

Utility players are part of the game. Blind is a great example. He can play CB, LB, and CM.

 

[antohan]

Firstly Lingard averages around 5 and never gets an 8 or 9 and secondly the excuse was injuries

Everyone has different ideas on averages. The point stands that in any game Lingard roughly plays bang in the middle of Martial's and Mkhi's inconsistent extremes.

Take Vigo, he was better than Mkhi by a long shot.

 

[TheBiggest]

You ask the question and then fail to explore it.
He is respected by his manager, team mates, pundits and has played for his country at all levels.
People in the game seem to rate him, but what do they know?

That's the most embarrassing this about this thread...fans typing away at their computers in their time off from their crappy little office jobs, genuinely seem to think they know better than Jose Mouirnho.

Hilarious.

It's clear for all to see that Mouirnho rates Lingard over all of our other wide attacking players, but the lads on the computer forums know better than that old Portuguese fool. Plus, you could bet your bottom dollar that if Fergie was still our manager, Lingard would be a first-team regular.

 

[Verminator]

Park? A notch above, granted.

And Park got beasted on here. Revision hit the caf and he is now a legend.