Jean-Clair Todibo | signs for West Ham on loan with option to buy

He looks very good in his youtube comps, like Varane but with more technical ability.
 
I know Pavard can play as RB but overall I think Todibo would be a better choice. He looks better as CB and is younger. Also I have never trusted defenders from Bundesliga.
 
daba said:
Is getting both Pavard and Todibo impossible?

We could easily do a loan with obligation to buy on one of them to split to cost to next seasons budget. Looking at how Arsenal have manoeuvred the Raya deal, we could potentially do something similar for Pavard.

Or if we felt getting Todibo now was overkill / he wouldn’t get enough game time, we could buy and loan him back to Nice for one more season.
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If we sell both Maguire and Mctominay we could use the money to sign both. And we can also sell Fred and VDB and use the money to sign Amrabat too. That’s the hope.
 
RedRonaldo said:
If we sell both Maguire and Mctominay we could use the money to sign both. And we can also sell Fred and VDB and use the money to sign Amrabat too. That’s the hope.
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Would be staggered to get both,like I say we could still get him next summer if this is who Erik has earmarked to succeed Varane. My gut feeling is he wants more options to choose from but could be totally wrong on that.

The hard part with CB targets is finding someone to compete with KMJ on the percentiles in terms of passing,possession and dominant in the air. He is elite in so many areas this will be a tough task.
 
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He looks a proper talent but why did it never work out in any of the clubs before Nice?
 
Escobar said:
He looks a proper talent but why did it never work out in any of the clubs before Nice?
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He was young, raw and not in clubs that could afford to play that kind of player. That's why it's important for young players to not move too soon and choose a club where your development is a priority.
 
Would be my personal choice due to being able to cover what Varane offers in the air when Varane is unavailable.
 
JPRouve said:
He was young, raw and not in clubs that could afford to play that kind of player. That's why it's important for young players to not move too soon and choose a club where your development is a priority.
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Nothing negative then, just joining the wrong club. He looks similar to a younger Varane so I'm all for getting him and bedding him in over time, especially since Varane is not getting any younger and looks a bit slower
 
Escobar said:
Nothing negative then, just joining the wrong club. He looks similar to a younger Varane so I'm all for getting him and bedding him in over time, especially since Varane is not getting any younger and looks a bit slower
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Todibo shouldn't join any club that intend to bed him in, he needs to stay at Nice or join a club where he is going to start 40+ games. We are talking about a nearly 24 years old player that missed crucial developmental minutes.
 
JPRouve said:
Todibo shouldn't join any club that intend to bed him in, he needs to stay at Nice or join a club where he is going to start 40+ games. We are talking about a nearly 24 years old player that missed crucial developmental minutes.
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Varane played 22 PL games in his first season and 24 in his second. I think, realistically, Todibo could get at least 30+ games this season, which is more than enough. We'll be able to rest Varane more as well. A fair amount of the games that he played, you could see he was struggling a bit, but because of lack of better options he was kind of "forced" out there. The longer we're able to keep him fit and rested, the longer we'll be able to have him as part of the squad.
 
zaafi said:
Varane played 22 PL games in his first season and 24 in his second. I think, realistically, Todibo could get at least 30+ games this season, which is more than enough. We'll be able to rest Varane more as well. A fair amount of the games that he played, you could see he was struggling a bit, but because of lack of better options he was kind of "forced" out there. The longer we're able to keep him fit and rested, the longer we'll be able to have him as part of the squad.
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The issue is the "could", Todibo needs to start +40, he needs to be a starter for his own sake. And it's also important for the club he will play for because he won't reach his potential otherwise. If ETH planned on giving him those minutes by reducing Varane and Martinez minutes then it makes sense to go for someone like Todibo, if the idea is that Todibo could get minutes because Varane could miss a number of games then it's a bad idea and we will end up with a french Lindelof.
 
JPRouve said:
The issue is the "could", Todibo needs to start +40, he needs to be a starter for his own sake. And it's also important for the club he will play for because he won't reach his potential otherwise. If ETH planned on giving him those minutes by reducing Varane and Martinez minutes then it makes sense to go for someone like Todibo, if the idea is that Todibo could get minutes because Varane could miss a number of games then it's a bad idea and we will end up with a french Lindelof.
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It's probably fair to assume Varane will play less and less, with Todibo playing more and more. Age and injuries for Varane means he'll be phased out. This year he'll be the main guy while Todibo adapts, and then in a year Todibo could just step in to a bigger role and it'd be a pretty smooth transition where I don't think he's held back?
 
JPRouve said:
The issue is the "could", Todibo needs to start +40, he needs to be a starter for his own sake. And it's also important for the club he will play for because he won't reach his potential otherwise. If ETH planned on giving him those minutes by reducing Varane and Martinez minutes then it makes sense to go for someone like Todibo, if the idea is that Todibo could get minutes because Varane could miss a number of games then it's a bad idea and we will end up with a french Lindelof.
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But he won't is the reality. Varane's games are carefully managed so any 3rd choice at United will be assured of fairly regular playing time. EtH always tends to bring on a CB off the bench too.

Not to sound callous but it's Varane, the chances of him getting injured and being out for sometime is very high.

I don't quite buy this idea that he needs to start 40+ or he'll regress again. He's not 19 anymore.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's probably fair to assume Varane will play less and less, with Todibo playing more and more. Age and injuries for Varane means he'll be phased out. This year he'll be the main guy while Todibo adapts, and then in a year Todibo could just step in to a bigger role and it'd be a pretty smooth transition where I don't think he's held back?
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He would 100% be held back and the question is whether he could get back on track or continue developing with far less playing time. Generally it's a recipe for disaster unless we are talking about a teenager.
 
El Jefe said:
But he won't is the reality. Varane's games are carefully managed so any 3rd choice at United will be assured of fairly regular playing time. EtH always tends to bring on a CB off the bench too.

Not to sound callous but it's Varane, the chances of him getting injured and being out for sometime is very high.

I don't quite buy this idea that he needs to start 40+ or he'll regress again. He's not 19 anymore.
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It's not that he will regress it's that you stop or slowdown the development of a 23-24 years old player that already lost developmental years. It's because he isn't 19 and already had a difficult road that this is a bigger issue, if he was 19 that situation would be okay but he isn't. If that's what we want then there are other young defenders that are more suitable because they are not in a situation where it's their last opportunity to reach their potential.
 
JPRouve said:
He would 100% be held back and the question is whether he could get back on track or continue developing with far less playing time. Generally it's a recipe for disaster unless we are talking about a teenager.
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You honestly don't think he will get ample playing time at United?
 
Just a reminder that Lindelof played 2500 minutes last season and Shaw played 1000 minutes as a centre-back.

Our 3rd choice centre-back won't have a problem getting a lot of minutes next season.
 
Rossa said:
You honestly don't think he will get ample playing time at United?
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I don't know but there is a fairly big chance that he doesn't get the amount of time that a player in his situation needs which is nearly all of it. Which relies on three things injuries, Lindelof/Evans/Shaw not playing and manager carving more playing time for a third CB than they usually do.

The issue with Todibo is that he didn't had a optimal career path, he is late in his development and he can't afford to waste time. At the minute he is likely not ready to start for United, he has potential to be very good but it's based on his initial potential and on the trajectory he put himself since joining Nice and playing all the minutes he could, reducing his minutes in nearly half is a big risk for him and the club that does it.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't know but there is a fairly big chance that he doesn't get the amount of time that a player in his situation needs which is nearly all of it. Which relies on three things injuries, Lindelof/Evans/Shaw not playing and manager carving more playing time for a third CB than they usually do.

The issue with Todibo is that he didn't had a optimal career path, he is late in his development and he can't afford to waste time. At the minute he is likely not ready to start for United, he has potential to be very good but it's based on his initial potential and on the trajectory he put himself since joining Nice and playing all the minutes he could, reducing his minutes in nearly half is a big risk for him and the club that does it.
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Yeah you sometimes wonder if it would be better to sign him or Tapsoba when Utd have decided that Varane's time is up which might be next year
 
For all the mention of playing time, do we have the numbers of what individual centre backs played for maybe the last 2 seasons? This may give a better idea of what we can expect the new signing to play against Varane as I think Martinez is first choice. Not really a stat guy myself, but know others excel in this area.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't know but there is a fairly big chance that he doesn't get the amount of time that a player in his situation needs which is nearly all of it. Which relies on three things injuries, Lindelof/Evans/Shaw not playing and manager carving more playing time for a third CB than they usually do.

The issue with Todibo is that he didn't had a optimal career path, he is late in his development and he can't afford to waste time. At the minute he is likely not ready to start for United, he has potential to be very good but it's based on his initial potential and on the trajectory he put himself since joining Nice and playing all the minutes he could, reducing his minutes in nearly half is a big risk for him and the club that does it.
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Has he not been at Nice for 3 seasons now? It's not like Varane played a lot of minutes during his first three years at Real Madrid, same age as Todibo when he didn't play much at all. He doesn't need 3000 minutes a season to continue his trajectory. If that was the case, then no defender would develop. He missed minutes when he was younger, like a lot of great defenders, but has since catched up in Nice and he's looking at 2000+ minutes here.
 
zaafi said:
Has he not been at Nice for 3 seasons now? It's not like Varane played a lot of minutes during his first three years at Real Madrid, same age as Todibo when he didn't play much at all. He doesn't need 3000 minutes a season to continue his trajectory. If that was the case, then no defender would develop. He missed minutes when he was younger, like a lot of great defenders, but has since catched up in Nice and he's looking at 2000+ minutes here.
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Again you are comparing a player that was much younger and had much more time. During his first season Varane was 20-21 years old, Todibo will be 24 in December.

Which defender do you know who was raw at 23-24 and managed to go beyond that while being a bench option for a couple of years? Those players are either starters or become perennial bench options. Surely we can both agree on the obvious risk that these kind of move create?
 
This lad, if he does come will get plenty of playing time, no worries on that front. Varane even when fit won't be play 2 games in a week consistently. ETH will manage his time to maintain his fitness. The other thing is, if this lad comes in when Varane is rested or invariably injured, and plays well, I could see ETH keeping him in the side. When we were linked with Kim Min Jae, he wasn't coming here to play as back up, he would have been looking as challenging to start week in week out. Varane is a great player but I'm not sure ETH is looking at players as merely being his back up, he wants players to compete with him.
 
poleglass red said:
This lad, if he does come will get plenty of playing time, no worries on that front. Varane even when fit won't be play 2 games in a week consistently. ETH will manage his time to maintain his fitness. The other thing is, if this lad comes in when Varane is rested or invariably injured, and plays well, I could see ETH keeping him in the side. When we were linked with Kim Min Jae, he wasn't coming here to play as back up, he would have been looking as challenging to start week in week out. Varane is a great player but I'm not sure ETH is looking at players as merely being his back up, he wants players to compete with him.
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KMJ is rated as literally one of the best CB’s in the world, if not #1 currently, he’s also older and completed the formal training you’d want (perfect age for a CB). His profile was that of someone who could well take a spot from either CB outright with them having to match his bar, potentially. It’s nothing like a kid coming to the big lights still raw and of a considerably lower profile.

One would take games regardless, most likely, the other needs games just to hone his craft and become the best he can be. That requires more than randomised PT and too few games is just negligent in light of a young CB’s needs, so it’s a different scenario and more of a catch 22 regarding this one.
 
Fortitude said:
KMJ is rated as literally one of the best CB’s in the world, if not #1 currently, he’s also older and completed the formal training you’d want (perfect age for a CB). His profile was that of someone who could well take a spot from either CB outright with them having to match his bar, potentially. It’s nothing like a kid coming to the big lights still raw and of a considerably lower profile.

One would take games regardless, most likely, the other needs games just to hone his craft and become the best he can be. That requires more than randomised PT and too few games is just negligent in light of a young CB’s needs, so it’s a different scenario and more of a catch 22 regarding this one.
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Why on earth we couldn't get this one over the line I will never know. God that release clause was so ridiculously low as well
 
JPRouve said:
Again you are comparing a player that was much younger and had much more time. During his first season Varane was 20-21 years old, Todibo will be 24 in December.

Which defender do you know who was raw at 23-24 and managed to go beyond that while being a bench option for a couple of years? Those players are either starters or become perennial bench options. Surely we can both agree on the obvious risk that these kind of move create?
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During his first season, Varane was 18, then at 19 and 20 he played around 1000 minutes each season.
When he was 21, he started playing a decent amount of minutes for Real Madrid, same age as when Todibo did for Nice. He didn't play that much more than Todibo, and playing time in top leagues at the age of 18-19 aren't crucial in any way.

Coming here and the PL and getting decent amount of minutes is how he will continue his development, not by staying in Nice for the 4th season in a row.
 
Don't forget that this season, at least initially, teams will be playing at least 10 more minutes per game, and possibly up to 20 minutes, so substitute players will certainly get more minutes on the pitch.
 
Fortitude said:
KMJ is rated as literally one of the best CB’s in the world, if not #1 currently, he’s also older and completed the formal training you’d want (perfect age for a CB). His profile was that of someone who could well take a spot from either CB outright with them having to match his bar, potentially. It’s nothing like a kid coming to the big lights still raw and of a considerably lower profile.

One would take games regardless, most likely, the other needs games just to hone his craft and become the best he can be. That requires more than randomised PT and too few games is just negligent in light of a young CB’s needs, so it’s a different scenario and more of a catch 22 regarding this one.
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Re KMJ and the links with us, my point was what you are saying, he wasn't coming here to merely act as back up, if he had of came here it was to genuinely challenge for a first team spot. I am not sure ETH is as tied to Varane as some believe. Todibo isn't at KMJ level yet, although KMJ in europe had 1 season in Turkey and 1 in Italy, so in that regard one good season with us at Utd and Todibo wouldn't be too far behind in experience levels, performance levels well that's another thing. I think if Todibo comes here, he will initally play when we rest Varane, but I feel as the season progresses he would be expected to challenge more with the expectation next season he is a legit contender to start.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't know but there is a fairly big chance that he doesn't get the amount of time that a player in his situation needs which is nearly all of it. Which relies on three things injuries, Lindelof/Evans/Shaw not playing and manager carving more playing time for a third CB than they usually do.

The issue with Todibo is that he didn't had a optimal career path, he is late in his development and he can't afford to waste time. At the minute he is likely not ready to start for United, he has potential to be very good but it's based on his initial potential and on the trajectory he put himself since joining Nice and playing all the minutes he could, reducing his minutes in nearly half is a big risk for him and the club that does it.
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I think these things are always difficult to say. He could develop further in a lesser league at a smaller club by playing more, but his development may also stall because the level isn't good enough. Contrary, at United, the level will be higher, so he will be matched against the best players in the world. On the other hand, his game time, although most likely considerable in minutes, will not be as consistent, and the lack of consistency may hamper his development.

Nothing is a sure thing when it comes to developing players, regardless of age.
 
Rossa said:
I think these things are always difficult to say. He could develop further in a lesser league at a smaller club by playing more, but his development may also stall because the level isn't good enough. Contrary, at United, the level will be higher, so he will be matched against the best players in the world. On the other hand, his game time, although most likely considerable in minutes, will not be as consistent, and the lack of consistency may hamper his development.

Nothing is a sure thing when it comes to developing players, regardless of age.
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In general that's true but in this case we have a bit of insight he struggled to develop without lots of game time. We know what happened and the question is whether it would happen again.

To me it's fairly simple, you leave the player alone, you give him a similar game time that he has today or you sign the player and loan him to Nice for one season. But I would be wary of putting this player in a situation that didn't go well in the past.
 
JPRouve said:
In general that's true but in this case we have a bit of insight he struggled to develop without lots of game time. We know what happened and the question is whether it would happen again.

To me it's fairly simple, you leave the player alone, you give him a similar game time that he has today or you sign the player and loan him to Nice for one season. But I would be wary of putting this player in a situation that didn't go well in the past.
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Cheers. I'm trusting your word for this as you have much more information than I do.

Do you think that he is good enough for United at present and/or future?
 
Rossa said:
Cheers. I'm trusting your word for this as you have much more information than I do.

Do you think that he is good enough for United at present and/or future?
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As a backup he should be good enough now but if United expect more then he needs a lot more seasoning. To me the perfect scenario would have been to purchase and loan him back to Nice or as @kouroux suggested a club that is fighting for the last CL/ high EL spots.
 
If we are bringing in someone as backup, he needs to be ready to step in and play when needed, we can't be signing back up and then loaning out, defeats the purpose. If this lad is being bought as a player for the future then a loan could be an option. We have a central defence of Varane, who has injury concerns and even when fit can't play 2 games a week on a consistent basis. We also lost Martinez last season for a chunk of games, although that was a freak accident, but shows what can happen. Malacia is injured so bringing in Shaw isn't an option for now. We will have enough league cup games, CL group games and matches where ETH manages Varane's time, that whomever we bring in will expect a decent amount of performances.
 
The source is Nice Matin, which if I'm not mistaken is quite reliable for all things OGC Nice.

 
Nice - Lille tonight. Gonna watch that match if he plays!
 
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