James Maddison | Spurs

Ekeke said:
Ndidi and Maddison are the key players, better than the rest
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Pereira, Chilwell are key players too. The EPL's leading scorer in Vardy, and two CBs that has heavily contributed to the best defence in the league. I don't see how Maddison is any more important than the fullbacks, the CBs, Tielemans and Vardy.
 
Mainoldo said:
I wouldn’t say Scholes and Carrick have that public loving that meant they couldn’t get overlooked for a Gerrard and Lampard.

Chris Smalling has been our of favour for England on day one. Hardly Maddison excuse. He’s been very apparent in the most recent squads and was overlooked for Kosovo ahead of Harry Winks. It’s not a yard stick but when we are dying out for creativity in the middle it’s abit alarming he doesn’t get a look in. Be it he’s young, energetic and good at set pieces. Like you have stated.
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I think it continues to tell you about Southgate not being a very good manager.

Personally I'd be basing the England team on the most in form premier league clubs English players. So you'd have Liverpool, Leicester, Chelsea and Man City's English players (other than Stones and Walker who are in poor form) and then Kane, Rashford and Maguire on top.

Instead he's playing poorly performing Spurs players
 
Stacks said:
I dont even think hes that special. If we sell Pogba to buy him we are nuts
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I don't think we'd be necessarily selling Pogba to buy him, we probably won't have a right lot of choice if Pogba pushes for a move next summer.
 
Ekeke said:
I think it continues to tell you about Southgate not being a very good manager.

Personally I'd be basing the England team on the most in form premier league clubs English players. So you'd have Liverpool, Leicester, Chelsea and Man City's English players (other than Stones and Walker who are in poor form) and then Kane, Rashford and Maguire on top.

Instead he's playing poorly performing Spurs players
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Southgate is running on the season when the Premier league was playing 3 at the back. Literally everyone got accustomed to it (& probably still is) - he called all the good players together & made them play that formation.

Got good results and people went overboard with hype saying that Southgate had done something special when something special was just happening in the league.

I really don't think he's going to be here after the Euros.

He stopped running on the League & as you said Maddison is one of the better players right now in it.
 
AltiUn said:
I don't think we'd be necessarily selling Pogba to buy him, we probably won't have a right lot of choice if Pogba pushes for a move next summer.
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Kinda what I was thinking. He will be Pogba replacement when Pogba bounces. Some here think he is the next big thing. Is he even capped yet at national level? Pogba starts for the world champs and scored in the final playing a key role. He is also a multiple title winner and CL finalist. Maddison has just had a good season with Leicester and I have seen posts in This thread comparing them. Outrageous!!! Certain guys have to do 10 times what others do for the same recognition.
 
Mcking said:
Pereira, Chilwell are key players too. The EPL's leading scorer in Vardy, and two CBs that has heavily contributed to the best defence in the league. I don't see how Maddison is any more important than the fullbacks, the CBs, Tielemans and Vardy.
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The Leicester defense gets protected by the most proactive DM in the league in front of them. They have less to deal with than if they didnt have Ndidi at DM. For example last season for most of the season Ndidi didnt play DM, he played further forward and Mendy played at the deepest point. Their defensive record was nowhere near as good as this season. Thats not to say that Soyuncu isnt playing well himself at CB, but he'd have a lot more to do with any other DM in the league in front of him. Thats why Ndidi is a key player and has the biggest impact on the defensive record. The most tackles of all DM/CMs in the league and the 2nd most interceptions. So thats how they get the ball and alleviate responsibility from the CBs.

What do Leicester do with the ball?

Maddison averages 56.3 passes on average per game when he plays CM. Thats 2 less than David Silva, but 3 more than De Bruyne. So thats a very good amount for an attack minded CM, he's keeping up in that respect with the two players most people would say are the best AMs in the league.

Also he averages 2.8 key passes from those 56 passes, with Silva 1.7 key passes and De Bruyne 3.5. Not only does Maddison play the most passes of Leicester's midfield, but he also creates the most and is their 2nd top goalscorer with 3 goals in 6 games in CM. 3 goals is joint most in the league for a CM despite only playing 6 games there so far this season. Silva is one of those joint with him on 3 goals, just with more games played.

Maddison also has the 2nd highest amount of dribbles of all English players this season behind Sancho. He is still behind both Silva and De Bruyne in successful dribbles, but he's still somewhere up there and its clearly a part of his game to take players on.

Maddison also has the most shots out of the Leicester team with over 3 per game.

So thats all the great stuff he's doing when Leicester have the ball, he's clearly pivitol to Leicester keeping the ball and creating chances, but also getting into positions to shoot himself. Thats why he's the key attacking player, however lets go back to when Leicester dont have the ball.

Maddison also averages 2.5 tackles per game in CM, as well as 0.3 interceptions. So he's also the best ball winner of Leicester's midfield other than the main man, Ndidi. So he's helping him with that pro-active defending the most.

So thats why those are the 2 key players. Ndidi is huge for reducing the pressure on the CBs, Maddison helps a bit with that but mainly he gets the ball moving the most with passes for Leicester as well as creating the most chances, making the most dribbles and having the most shots.
 
Pogba played a starring role in France winning, opposition fans want him gone and hint at any disharmony, he's a brilliant player, not everyone's cup but he is.
 
Ekeke said:
The Leicester defense gets protected by the most proactive DM in the league in front of them. They have less to deal with than if they didnt have Ndidi at DM. For example last season for most of the season Ndidi didnt play DM, he played further forward and Mendy played at the deepest point. Their defensive record was nowhere near as good as this season. Thats not to say that Soyuncu isnt playing well himself at CB, but he'd have a lot more to do with any other DM in the league in front of him. Thats why Ndidi is a key player and has the biggest impact on the defensive record. The most tackles of all DM/CMs in the league and the 2nd most interceptions. So thats how they get the ball and alleviate responsibility from the CBs.

What do Leicester do with the ball?

Maddison averages 56.3 passes on average per game when he plays CM. Thats 2 less than David Silva, but 3 more than De Bruyne. So thats a very good amount for an attack minded CM, he's keeping up in that respect with the two players most people would say are the best AMs in the league.

Also he averages 2.8 key passes from those 56 passes, with Silva 1.7 key passes and De Bruyne 3.5. Not only does Maddison play the most passes of Leicester's midfield, but he also creates the most and is their 2nd top goalscorer with 3 goals in 6 games in CM. 3 goals is joint most in the league for a CM despite only playing 6 games there so far this season. Silva is one of those joint with him on 3 goals, just with more games played.

Maddison also has the 2nd highest amount of dribbles of all English players this season behind Sancho. He is still behind both Silva and De Bruyne in successful dribbles, but he's still somewhere up there and its clearly a part of his game to take players on.

Maddison also has the most shots out of the Leicester team with over 3 per game.

So thats all the great stuff he's doing when Leicester have the ball, he's clearly pivitol to Leicester keeping the ball and creating chances, but also getting into positions to shoot himself. Thats why he's the key attacking player, however lets go back to when Leicester dont have the ball.

Maddison also averages 2.5 tackles per game in CM, as well as 0.3 interceptions. So he's also the best ball winner of Leicester's midfield other than the main man, Ndidi. So he's helping him with that pro-active defending the most.

So thats why those are the 2 key players. Ndidi is huge for reducing the pressure on the CBs, Maddison helps a bit with that but mainly he gets the ball moving the most with passes for Leicester as well as creating the most chances, making the most dribbles and having the most shots.
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I remember when Liverpool started using stats, trying the Moneyball-approach, and somehow ended up with players like Downing and Adams after looking at figures like key passes. They first started having success with the Moneyball-approach when they started combing it with using expected goal-stats.

The key pass-metric is a bit deceiving for players who is at set play. Maddison has 50 key passes from corner in 18/19 and 19/20, but only 2 assists. From a total of 233 corners. In other words, 21 % of his corners end up in a key pass. But less than 1 % of his corners ends up in an assist. I’m not saying that having Maddison at set play would not be a huge upgrade. It would. But the importance of a huge upgrade at corners is overrated. Because, as the stats show, it is so difficult to score even from the relatively small amount of crosses from corners that results in a finish.

In Maddisons case, the xga reveal that the quality of the key passes is low. His xa90 is 0,15. That is not very impressive from an attacking midfielder. He has 12 key passes from open play. Ben Chilwell has 11 key passes from open play (in 70 less minutes). And the quality of his key passes appears to be significantly higher than Maddison.

While Maddison has more key passes overall (due to set play), their xa90 is the same - 0,15. Meaning that the quality of the key passes from Chilwell from open play has been much higher. Maddison has an xa90 from open play of 0,09, Chilwell 0,14.

Furthermore, Chilwell is a lot more involved in build up play to goals than Maddison. Something that is supported by xgBuildup90 where Chilwell is at 0,42 and Maddison is at 0,23.

I like both of them. But Chilwell have been more important to them this season in my opinion. And stats support it!
 
thegregster said:
Maddison is a mercenary. He joined Leicester for money.

He will leave for bigger wages.

I dont know why this is even up for debate.
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What makes you come to that conclusion? He left League One side Coventry for Championship side Norwich, then left Championship side Norwich for Premier League side Leicester.

That's a perfectly fair career trajectory. I'm sure his pay is increasing, as it should, but it's not like he's make sideways or backwards moves is it? He's going up a level every time. If he's smart his next move will be Liverpool. He'd be mad to join the circus at United or Arsenal.
 
Mainoldo said:
If you switched the two Grealish would perform better. Maddison has a better set piece but Grealish is a more talented footballer. However he’s that is partly due to him being older and more mature. But neither win you a champs league or Premiership. However like Henderson with everything right then can be part of a title winning team.
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You can’t use something that hasn’t happened as evidence. Maddison is a key player in a top team. The other poster makes a very good point, I’m sure if Grealish is the real deal someone will snap him up.
 
andersj said:
I remember when Liverpool started using stats, trying the Moneyball-approach, and somehow ended up with players like Downing and Adams after looking at figures like key passes. They first started having success with the Moneyball-approach when they started combing it with using expected goal-stats.

The key pass-metric is a bit deceiving for players who is at set play. Maddison has 50 key passes from corner in 18/19 and 19/20, but only 2 assists. From a total of 233 corners. In other words, 21 % of his corners end up in a key pass. But less than 1 % of his corners ends up in an assist. I’m not saying that having Maddison at set play would not be a huge upgrade. It would. But the importance of a huge upgrade at corners is overrated. Because, as the stats show, it is so difficult to score even from the relatively small amount of crosses from corners that results in a finish.

In Maddisons case, the xga reveal that the quality of the key passes is low. His xa90 is 0,15. That is not very impressive from an attacking midfielder. He has 12 key passes from open play. Ben Chilwell has 11 key passes from open play (in 70 less minutes). And the quality of his key passes appears to be significantly higher than Maddison.

While Maddison has more key passes overall (due to set play), their xa90 is the same - 0,15. Meaning that the quality of the key passes from Chilwell from open play has been much higher. Maddison has an xa90 from open play of 0,09, Chilwell 0,14.

Furthermore, Chilwell is a lot more involved in build up play to goals than Maddison. Something that is supported by xgBuildup90 where Chilwell is at 0,42 and Maddison is at 0,23.

I like both of them. But Chilwell have been more important to them this season in my opinion. And stats support it!
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Mate, dont get so wrapped up in stats. I watch Leicester every week, and I can tell you that Chillwell has definitely not been more important than Maddison. In fact, untill the Southampton game, Chillwell was very unpopular with the fans. Many were calling for Fuchs to replace him. Admittedly, since that game, he has been more impressive. I doubt there is a Leicester fan that would rather loose Madders than Chillwell.
 
He is a good player but I think where we can we should avoid doing business with Leicester.

Premier League transfers are overpriced enough because of the TV revenue, once you consider the fact that their owners are rich then you will end up paying dramatically over the odds.
 
fps said:
You can’t use something that hasn’t happened as evidence. Maddison is a key player in a top team. The other poster makes a very good point, I’m sure if Grealish is the real deal someone will snap him up.
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What do mean something that hasn’t happened? That means no one can tell me Maddison is United quality as he is here to prove it.

You say if he’s the real deal? When’s Maddison got brought for Leicester Grealish was on his way to Spurs (baring a takeover and Levy being cheap).
 
Another 4 key passes and 3 tackles top and second top of the Leicester team in those areas.

OverratedOpinion said:
He is a good player but I think where we can we should avoid doing business with Leicester.

Premier League transfers are overpriced enough because of the TV revenue, once you consider the fact that their owners are rich then you will end up paying dramatically over the odds.
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Are they really overpriced when they are outperforming City and are the 2nd best team in the league? They're 7 places above where they were last season when we didnt even sign Leicester's best player, for £80 million

What is the going rate for a player who is top 2 or 3 at the 2nd placed team in the premier league? That would have been Liverpool last season, so their top 2 or 3 players would be the comparison
 
Ekeke said:
Another 4 key passes and 3 tackles top and second top of the Leicester team in those areas.



Are they really overpriced when they are outperforming City and are the 2nd best team in the league? They're 7 places above where they were last season when we didnt even sign Leicester's best player, for £80 million

What is the going rate for a player who is top 2 or 3 at the 2nd placed team in the premier league? That would have been Liverpool last season, so their top 2 or 3 players would be the comparison
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Well unless you’re going to bring the manager and coaching staff with you. Yes they are overpriced.
 
Mainoldo said:
Well unless you’re going to bring the manager and coaching staff with you. Yes they are overpriced.
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They have their own costs. You could take them instead, are they overpriced too? A lot of these players were already at the club before the manager came in and it was clear they had something with them, but he has got them getting the results on top
 
Ekeke said:
Are they really overpriced when they are outperforming City and are the 2nd best team in the league? They're 7 places above where they were last season when we didnt even sign Leicester's best player, for £80 million

What is the going rate for a player who is top 2 or 3 at the 2nd placed team in the premier league? That would have been Liverpool last season, so their top 2 or 3 players would be the comparison
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Leicester would not want to strengthen another club in their league and also do not have any real reason to sell a player they value unless they receive an offer which is significantly over the odds. The fact that there is a premium on buying Premier League players, especially from clubs with wealthy owners should not be news to you.

Also Liverpool's second and third best players are Salah and Mane so that would be a bit of a stretch.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Leicester would not want to strengthen another club in their league and also do not have any real reason to sell a player they value unless they receive an offer which is significantly over the odds. The fact that there is a premium on buying Premier League players, especially from clubs with wealthy owners should not be news to you.

Also Liverpool's second and third best players are Salah and Mane so that would be a bit of a stretch.
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I'm not sure it is. Leicester are the 2nd top scorers and have the best defensive record so far this season.

Who were the 2nd top scorers last season and had the best defensive record?

Obviously Leicester would need to keep it up till the end of the season but make no mistake about how well they're doing right now. Their form is right up there as are the players performing best for them. If they drop off as the season goes on that'll show a difference in consistency.
 
Ekeke said:
I'm not sure it is. Leicester are the 2nd top scorers and have the best defensive record so far this season.

Who were the 2nd top scorers last season and had the best defensive record?

Obviously Leicester would need to keep it up till the end of the season but make no mistake about how well they're doing right now. Their form is right up there as are the players performing best for them. If they drop off as the season goes on that'll show a difference in consistency.
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It is a bit of a stretch if you think James Maddison is as good of a player as Mo Salah.

Your argument seems to be that every team that finishes second is of the exact same quality as any other team that has finished second. You are well aware that is far from accurate.

Soyuncu has been the best defender for the second placed club this season. Does that mean he is as good as Van Dijk because Liverpool finished second last year?
 
OverratedOpinion said:
It is a bit of a stretch if you think James Maddison is as good of a player as Mo Salah.

Your argument seems to be that every team that finishes second is of the exact same quality as any other team that has finished second. You are well aware that is far from accurate.

Soyuncu has been the best defender for the second placed club this season. Does that mean he is as good as Van Dijk because Liverpool finished second last year?
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If they finish second with the same 2nd place on goals scored and 1st least goals conceded they're in the same category as a team. That doesnt mean every defender is as good as the previous 2nd placed team, but the team is somewhere near.

And more importantly theres a long way to go for them to finish there. But yes if they do, their best attacking players who help them score the 2nd most goals in the league are up there with Salah and Mane's performances last season. This season they might finish 1st, so they'd still be behind them in real time, but are they as good as they were last season? Somewhere near
 
Ekeke said:
If they finish second with the same 2nd place on goals scored and 1st least goals conceded they're in the same category as a team. That doesnt mean every defender is as good as the previous 2nd placed team, but the team is somewhere near.

And more importantly theres a long way to go for them to finish there. But yes if they do, their best attacking players who help them score the 2nd most goals in the league are up there with Salah and Mane's performances last season. This season they might finish 1st, so they'd still be behind them in real time, but are they as good as they were last season? Somewhere near
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Two questions, assuming Leicester keep playing the same way until the end of the season and finish second.

1. Do you think that means Maddison is as good of a player as Mo Salah was 6 months ago?

2. Do you think James Maddison's transfer value should be as high as Mo Salah's was 6 months ago?

If so fair enough, I disagree.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Two questions, assuming Leicester keep playing the same way until the end of the season and finish second.

1. Do you think that means Maddison is as good of a player as Mo Salah was 6 months ago?

2. Do you think James Maddison's transfer value should be as high as Mo Salah's was 6 months ago?

If so fair enough, I disagree.
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No but mostly because of the previous season where he was individually the top scorer in the league.

Last season it was a 3 way between Salah, Mane and Auba. So you would say they are the 3 top goalscorers.

If things stay the same till the end of the season, KDB would continue to be the best AM in the league, and 2nd and 3rd would be Silva and Maddison. So I would say he would be a little bit under the price of the top band of goalscorers, since goals are so important. If for example it was decided that those 3 players as the top scorers in the league were worth £100 million each (or maybe Salah a bit more for being top scorer the year before as well, lets say £110 million) then KDB would be worth around the same £100 million mark and then Silva (if he wasnt so old) and Maddison around £80 million imo.

Of course these numbers are just an example of what I think the factors should be to show the gap between them. That doesnt mean I think Liverpool would sell Salah for £100 million or City would sell KDB for £100 million.
 
Where does he normally play? Can see him feature in a midfield 3 as the most attacking of the CMs, with McSause to the right a bit behind him and a modern CDM sitting behind them.
 
Stacks said:
Maddison can't get an England start. Pogba wins world cups
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He can't get a start because Southgate is perpetuating the long, successful english tradition of starting a player based on which (big) club he plays for and not on current form.

Southgate is a fraud, the easy WC run, gave him a credit he doesn't deserve and will be found out soon enough in the EC.
 
Ekeke said:
The Leicester defense gets protected by the most proactive DM in the league in front of them. They have less to deal with than if they didnt have Ndidi at DM. For example last season for most of the season Ndidi didnt play DM, he played further forward and Mendy played at the deepest point. Their defensive record was nowhere near as good as this season. Thats not to say that Soyuncu isnt playing well himself at CB, but he'd have a lot more to do with any other DM in the league in front of him. Thats why Ndidi is a key player and has the biggest impact on the defensive record. The most tackles of all DM/CMs in the league and the 2nd most interceptions. So thats how they get the ball and alleviate responsibility from the CBs.

What do Leicester do with the ball?

Maddison averages 56.3 passes on average per game when he plays CM. Thats 2 less than David Silva, but 3 more than De Bruyne. So thats a very good amount for an attack minded CM, he's keeping up in that respect with the two players most people would say are the best AMs in the league.

Also he averages 2.8 key passes from those 56 passes, with Silva 1.7 key passes and De Bruyne 3.5. Not only does Maddison play the most passes of Leicester's midfield, but he also creates the most and is their 2nd top goalscorer with 3 goals in 6 games in CM. 3 goals is joint most in the league for a CM despite only playing 6 games there so far this season. Silva is one of those joint with him on 3 goals, just with more games played.

Maddison also has the 2nd highest amount of dribbles of all English players this season behind Sancho. He is still behind both Silva and De Bruyne in successful dribbles, but he's still somewhere up there and its clearly a part of his game to take players on.

Maddison also has the most shots out of the Leicester team with over 3 per game.

So thats all the great stuff he's doing when Leicester have the ball, he's clearly pivitol to Leicester keeping the ball and creating chances, but also getting into positions to shoot himself. Thats why he's the key attacking player, however lets go back to when Leicester dont have the ball.

Maddison also averages 2.5 tackles per game in CM, as well as 0.3 interceptions. So he's also the best ball winner of Leicester's midfield other than the main man, Ndidi. So he's helping him with that pro-active defending the most.

So thats why those are the 2 key players. Ndidi is huge for reducing the pressure on the CBs, Maddison helps a bit with that but mainly he gets the ball moving the most with passes for Leicester as well as creating the most chances, making the most dribbles and having the most shots.
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That's an excellent post and a very good assessment of the team. Props to you.
 
That_Bloke said:
That's an excellent post and a very good assessment of the team. Props to you.
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It's also rubbish because Vardy is our key player, we'd miss him vastly more than Ndidi and Maddison.

It could be argued that the creative outlet Ricardo gives us, is equally as important as Ndidi's shielding and Maddison's passing. When on his game Tielemans is better than Maddison, he's just not his last season's heights just yet, probably down to a disrupted summer.
 
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