[NoPace]

Good point. Is it a United thing or an English thing?

Very few top English midfielders. Even the good ones are kinda weird or not quite midfielders. Rice was a CB turned DM who drives with the ball. A ton of attacking mids like Maddison, Mount, Foden, Grealish, Smith-Rowe, Alli, Barkley who tend to play wide or off the front. Some journeyman workhorses like Milner and Henderson have found a niche under Klopp but wouldn't look out of place at Watford. A few tidy but unadventurous passers like Winks, Cleverly, Drinkwater have come and gone. Some young lads like Bellingham, Gallagher and Ramsey seem like old school box to box mids but question marks over their possession game to make at at the top level. Phillips looked like Pirlo in the Championship, in the Prem he looks like just another hatchet man but who can occasionally hit a 40 yard pass. Ward-Prowse looks like a Championship midfielder except for being one of the best dead ball specialists around.

We should probably just try and sign a couple Spanish 16 year olds every summer!

1. Absolutely. No coincidence England won a major trophy with a small, passing #6 who unlocked the defence with a great through ball for the opener.

2. It does seem like we've struggled to find the Gallagher/Bellingham/Robson/Gerrard/Lampard types who are probably best as 10s but often played as 8s in England. They aren't perfect midfielders, but woulds still be great to produce the occasional one.

3. Bit harsh on Milner. So many assists. Not great to watch, but as a former winger his mobility in midfield (and versatility) make him a great squad player.

4. And yeah, I've long thought we should just sign more Spanish DMs, even the unfashionable ones like Bruno Soriano would have stabilized things post-Carrick and been affordable.

 

[Red the Bear]

1. Absolutely. No coincidence England won a major trophy with a small, passing #6 who unlocked the defence with a great through ball for the opener.

2. It does seem like we've struggled to find the Gallagher/Bellingham/Robson/Gerrard/Lampard types who are probably best as 10s but often played as 8s in England. They aren't perfect midfielders, but woulds still be great to produce the occasional one.

3. Bit harsh on Milner. So many assists. Not great to watch, but as a former winger his mobility in midfield (and versatility) make him a great squad player.

4. And yeah, I've long thought we should just sign more Spanish DMs, even the unfashionable ones like Bruno Soriano would have stabilized things post-Carrick and been affordable.

Sorry I'm being a bit pedantic here but the first goal was a free kick and the second a deflected shot by Martin Peters so who are you referring to ?

 

[Based Adnan]

Wasn't Gilmour so bad at times that he got jeered by the Norwich fans?

Yes. Also got sent away from this summers pre season by Chelsea as Tuchel felt he had too many players present. The likes of Barkley and Batshuayi remained whilst Gilmour was sent to link up with the U23s.

 

[dazjoe]

Think some are being a bit harsh on him. I caught him a few times at Forest and he looked a very composed and decent player, especially for a young lad.
I don't think Mount did anything better at Derby than Garner did at Forest and he stepped straight up to the task at Chelsea. Not saying it'll automatically happen for Garner but he has a chance. He's got more about his game than McTominay did at the same age for example, and he's still here and getting games.

 

[dazjoe]

Sorry I'm being a bit pedantic here but the first goal was a free kick and the second a deflected shot by Martin Peters so who are you referring to ?

England's women, 1st goal was from a lovely ball through the defence.

 

[NoPace]

Sorry I'm being a bit pedantic here but the first goal was a free kick and the second a deflected shot by Martin Peters so who are you referring to ?

My bad I meant to say they won a major trophy today. Was referring to the Women, whose #6 is the type of midfielder the England men have maybe never played at the base of midfield, at least as far back as I can remember/have read about.

 

[Red the Bear]

My bad I meant to say they won a major trophy today. Was referring to the Women, whose #6 is the type of midfielder the England men have maybe never played at the base of midfield, at least as far back as I can remember/have read about.

Oh, I just got confused there for a moment , this does make me wonder how different the dynamics are between men and women within nations, food for thought i guess.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Never quite seen the big talent in him tbh.

 

[Blood Mage]

Meh, he was alright in the first half and poor in the second. He's no better than McFred to be honest, slightly above average at best and not good enough for us.

 

[Member 123428]

You could see he was an average Championship player, when he barely made an impact for a half-decent Watford side.

 

[lsd]

So he has been written off on the back of one friendly?

 

[Olecurls99]

So he has been written off on the back of one friendly?

It's looking that way Farewell Jimmy

 

[aeh1991]

So many negatives? I still have trust in Jimmy. Way more talented than Scott.

 

[lsd]

It's looking that way Farewell Jimmy

I suppose he had a good run. Hopefully will enjoy his retirement

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Completely disagree with everyone apparently. His job is to put a shift in, break up play and distribute the ball and keep the shape, it's not flashy or eye catching and I think he did that very well, he's a solid 7/10 player which will do us no harm, I'd keep him with the team and see what he can become, good solid start for me

 

[izak]

Plays the game at his pace, he's obviously intelligent but needs time to develop under ETH guidance.

 

[TwoSheds]

So many negatives? I still have trust in Jimmy. Way more talented than Scott.

I don't think either of them are that good but they both have their uses. Can't see how a top club could have room for both of them in the squad though really. They're both quite versatile and could play DM/CM/AM to a certain level, Garner being a bit of a Bruno lite and Scott being more of a Matic/Fellaini cross. Don't see how there's really room for all of McT, Fred, Bruno, Eriksen, Van de Beek and Garner who can all "do a job" in any of those 3 positions but with only really Bruno and Eriksen having mastered the 10 position and the others just being a bit more generically OK. Id want Garner to get a Prem loan and then either him or Scott + Donny get sold at the end of the season personally.

 

[MrBest]

So he has been written off on the back of one friendly?

Crazy right? And he spent half the tour injured, probably 2 or 3 weeks behind the others in fitness. I like him, I think he has a future, can be good back up this season if we get Frenkie in. I would not be against a loan.

 

[RedRonaldo]

They say Mctominay hides in game, but Garner to me is even more invisible.

 

[MadDogg]

So he has been written off on the back of one friendly?

I'm not writing him off but I find it unlikely that he'll make it here. Not so much from this friendly, but the six or seven matches that I watched him play over the last two years while loaned. Every match was a similar story - capable of playing some nice passes when he got on the ball, but he simply played way too passively and barely got involved. Probably worse than McTominay tends to do for us despite playing at a much worse level.

Maybe ETH can work on that side of the game with him, but he'll have to improve his involvement significantly IMO.

 

[Mickson]

I think he's a good player but nothing special. I don't see how he comes to United and just grabs the game by the scruff of the neck. I think it's difficult to say whether he should stay or be loaned out again, and I think EtH struggles with that decision as well.

 

[Escobar]

So he has been written off on the back of one friendly?

No, just a few fans that got a reality check

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Iqbal has already shown more courage than him on the ball. It was painful how badly he was hiding and failing to advance the ball yesterday. It’d be poor by center back standards.

 

[Red Royal]

So he has been written off on the back of one friendly?

Not by me yet, we have to keep expectations realistic with all of the youngsters. The hope I have is he and a few others play a few decent Europa league games as well as some good minutes in the league.

 

[Yagami]

I think you're selling Cleverley short. He was very good for us at senior level before his injury. He never got back to his best after that, but pretending he wasn't good enough is just not accurate.

I liked Cleverley, and he was definitely better before his injury, but, looking back, his deficiencies were always too big of a hindrance. We were fortunate Carrick carried the midfield alone for years.

Thats reassuring, thanks. Are other English academies heading the same way or are United leading the pack?

I can’t really speak for others. I mean, I see a lot because I follow our youth teams but it’s only through our games. From what I’ve noticed, British academies still don’t really put enough emphasis on deeper positions (cb, cm) being trained to be comfortable under pressure. The majority are still your standard immobile players who are all about passing and shooting on the ball. Hardly any turn under pressure or carry the ball forwards through their dribbling.

There are standouts, but rare. Tottenham have a CB called Brandon Bryan-Waugh who’s comfortable at turning under pressure instead of just hoofing it. Arsenal have the most press resistant youth midfielder in the country in Charlie Patino who’s de Jong-esque.

Netherlands have definitely made huge strides in training their cbs and midfielders to be comfortable under pressure, though. Aertssen and Gooijer for Ajax and Gaars for Feyenoord are cbs and are all incredible on the ball. Turn under pressure, dribble through a press, progressive passing. They will have a Timber like impact eventually.

 

[Marwood]

I liked Cleverley, and he was definitely better before his injury, but, looking back, his deficiencies were always too big of a hindrance. We were fortunate Carrick carried the midfield alone for years.

I can’t really speak for others. I mean, I see a lot because I follow our youth teams but it’s only through our games. From what I’ve noticed, British academies still don’t really put enough emphasis on deeper positions (cb, cm) being trained to be comfortable under pressure. The majority are still your standard immobile players who are all about passing and shooting on the ball. Hardly any turn under pressure or carry the ball forwards through their dribbling.

There are standouts, but rare. Tottenham have a CB called Brandon Bryan-Waugh who’s comfortable at turning under pressure instead of just hoofing it. Arsenal have the most press resistant youth midfielder in the country in Charlie Patino who’s de Jong-esque.

Netherlands have definitely made huge strides in training their cbs and midfielders to be comfortable under pressure, though. Aertssen and Gooijer for Ajax and Gaars for Feyenoord are cbs and are all incredible on the ball. Turn under pressure, dribble through a press, progressive passing. They will have a Timber like impact eventually.

That wasn't Carricks game either but like you say he carried the midfield for a period.

Like always in football there are fashions and while that fashion is around it suddenly becomes the only way to be.

But there have been and continue to be DM's who aren't the twisty, nippy, "press resistant" types who carry the ball.

A good first touch, decision making and playing with your head up can also work.

Which I'm hoping is what Garner can bring to some level.

 

[Olecurls99]

Looked very neat and tidy and got around the pitch well yesterday. He seemed to be playing it very safe which is to be expected given how long he's been out.

 

[Member 109952]

Crazy right? And he spent half the tour injured, probably 2 or 3 weeks behind the others in fitness. I like him, I think he has a future, can be good back up this season if we get Frenkie in. I would not be against a loan.

He often had games like that for Forest where he was not involved.

I like Garner but like with Taunzabe to Villa we're making a huge mistake by not getting him back to Forest whatever the cost.

 

[Alemar]

he's a solid 7/10 player which will do us no harm

He is a 6/10 player. So far at least. In other words, he is “an OK player”. But we already have quite a lot of OK players in the team and as a result get an OK place in the table. Somehow it’s deemed as too low a place…

 

[Yagami]

That wasn't Carricks game either but like you say he carried the midfield for a period.

Like always in football there are fashions and while that fashion is around it suddenly becomes the only way to be.

But there have been and continue to be DM's who aren't the twisty, nippy, "press resistant" types who carry the ball.

A good first touch, decision making and playing with your head up can also work.

Which I'm hoping is what Garner can bring to some level.

Yes, that was Carrick’s biggest weakness, but he made up for that by being world class in other areas. There’s a reason he was our only constant in midfield during the clubs best ever period. You could have a Scholes, a Fletcher, a Anderson, etc, but Carrick was the key.

Garner will never be at that level to make up for his weakness under pressure. He will do well to have a career in the premier league.

He often had games like that for Forest where he was not involved.

I like Garner but like with Taunzabe to Villa we're making a huge mistake by not getting him back to Forest whatever the cost.

Agreed. Problem with Garner he’s been hyped up too much so the club will want to give him chance after chance, which will only devalue him when we eventually look to sell him as more people will realise his limitations.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So he has been written off on the back of one friendly?

Wouldn't say so. More that he doesn't look like a huge talent but it's too early to say what his level will end up being. For me, I've seen bits of the player here and there and he's never struck me as someone who was going to be am important first team CM at United at least not one that people rated highly anyway. So I've not "gotten it" with Garner. What's always struck me about him is that he's heavy on the ball and time on the ball is everything for a player in that role. Carrick had this weakness too but not to this extent.

Needless to say that it would be good to see him do well and justify other people rating him highly. Maybe I just haven't watched enough of the player and my preliminary view is off? Well see.

 

[MattofManchester]

Give him a go. There is an absolute zero chance he could be any worse.

 

[Idxomer]

Sell him if he's the 5th choice midfielder out of the options we have currently.

 

[Kostov]

Give him a go. There is an absolute zero chance he could be any worse.

He is not.

 

[Longshanks]

I think he should be our starting number 6, one of the reasons we really struggled yesterday was our inability to progress the ball from back to front through midfield. Garner probably has the best passing and vision of our deep midfielders and he's not afraid of sticking a foot or a head in to defend either.

Fred can't pass, has no vision,is weak in the tackle and useless in the air.

Mctom is a better 6 than Fred but is poor posistionally and dosent really have the technique or vision to effectively play the role.

Eriksen has the technique and vision but none of the defensive ability or physicality.

Unless we sign a genuine number 6 it has to be garner, he is the only one with enough of the required attributes to make a go of it. Give him time to settle into the role and hope he makes a good go of it, because sureley thats better than playing either of mcfred

 

[Rozay]

We need to be very careful not to repeat the McTominay cycle with him. I'm not in favour of a relatively unproven academy player again becoming a starter due to being the best of a bunch of awful options. We have shown ourselves to be way too nice to move these players on quickly if needed, and we could just effectively have McTominay replacing himself in our team.

What we need to just do is buy a couple of top quality midfielders. Sell McTominay who has already proven himself not to be up to it, and then have Garner in the role Scott SHOULD have started off in as an understudy to some proper midfielders where he can slowly prove whether he is good enough or not. I am not in favour of just making Championship Nottingham Forest's midfielder a regular here, because that in itself is McTominay's standard. We would not ordinarily have signed a Forest CM who impressed in the Championship to immediately fix our midfield, and Garner shouldn't be asked to either. His role as a squad player is the right one. Scott's role as a regular has failed and he needs to be sold and replaced with a new regular, but Garner has not shown it should be him.

I can imagine he will be better than Scott, and I can see a scenario where being better than Scott excites a few people at first, and he becomes a regular. But soon Scott will be long gone, and we'll remember that being better than Scott was not actually where the real bar is, it is being good enough for United, but by then, Garner is an established regular and we basically have Scott all over again for a few years.

 

[midou]

If Garner is worse than McT then he should just go ahead and retire.

 

[Skills]

We need to be very careful not to repeat the McTominay cycle with him. I'm not in favour of a relatively unproven academy player again becoming a starter due to being the best of a bunch of awful options. We have shown ourselves to be way too nice to move these players on quickly if needed, and we could just effectively have McTominay replacing himself in our team.

What we need to just do is buy a couple of top quality midfielders. Sell McTominay who has already proven himself not to be up to it, and then have Garner in the role Scott SHOULD have started off in as an understudy to some proper midfielders where he can slowly prove whether he is good enough or not. I am not in favour of just making Championship Nottingham Forest's midfielder a regular here, because that in itself is McTominay's standard. We would not ordinarily have signed a Forest CM who impressed in the Championship to immediately fix our midfield, and Garner shouldn't be asked to either. His role as a squad player is the right one. Scott's role as a regular has failed and he needs to be sold and replaced with a new regular, but Garner has not shown it should be him.

I can imagine he will be better than Scott, and I can see a scenario where being better than Scott excites a few people at first, and he becomes a regular. But soon Scott will be long gone, and we'll remember that being better than Scott was not actually where the real bar is, it is being good enough for United, but by then, Garner is an established regular and we basically have Scott all over again for a few years.

Personally think we're better off just selling him. It feels like this summer is the max transfer fee we'll ever get from him, and he's probably way more valuable to someone else than he is to us.

We need to maximize this opportunity. He spends a year on the bench here in a failing teams, it harms his reputation and then gets us less in terms of a transfer fee.

 

[Rozay]

Personally think we're better off just selling him. It feels like this summer is the max transfer fee we'll ever get from him, and he's probably way more valuable to someone else than he is to us.

We need to maximize this opportunity. He spends a year on the bench here in a failing teams, it harms his reputation and then gets us less in terms of a transfer fee.

I'm not against that, and you are right that we could get a good fee now - but ultimately, we are not a selling club. Our first priority isn't to obtain the best fee we can for our players, it is to have good players. We've not really been able to have a look, even in pre-season, whether he is of any use yet. There are a lot of talented English midfielders coming through, and I know the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool have done well in the market selling these players - but they sell players who they accept will not realistically get a chance with them due to the quality in the first team. We are not in such a position here.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Personally think we're better off just selling him. It feels like this summer is the max transfer fee we'll ever get from him, and he's probably way more valuable to someone else than he is to us.

We need to maximize this opportunity. He spends a year on the bench here in a failing teams, it harms his reputation and then gets us less in terms of a transfer fee.

We should have sold him to Forrest for £15-20m and put a buy-back clause in there.

We're not the club that does that though... we're the club that holds onto our youngsters until they're worthless.