Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

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TheLord said:
Perfection! :O
That is if you think the preseason begins only after the players are on the practice-fields. There's a lot of mental preparation, and there are lots of off-field preparations in every transfer.

You can't go to another city, another country, find a new house to live, get to know your new teammates, the new manager, the new coaching staff, the new team's playing style/tactics/playing-position, and dozens of other important off-field issues and then pretend nothing happened and start firing on all cylinders from day one, when the new English season begins in less than 48-hours, United's (and Dortmund's) next game is in 9 days, and Sancho doesn't even know which country he will live in, let alone which club!!

Like most of us normal human beings, footballers need a period to 'settle in'. I don't know about you, but I'd quite disturbed if had a huge job starting in 9 days, and then I was told that I would have to either live in Germany or in England and that they will be able to tell me only one or two days before the job actually begins.

Lots of transfers take place very late in the transfer window, but this is certainly not ideal from the players' or the clubs' perspective.
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Overstating the new country, city, house bit. He literally lived in Manchester a few odd years ago
 
Just bumped into Rashford in Aldi. He was buying a pair of flip flops and a power drill from the middle isle. Anyway, said that the 18th is gonna be JD day.
 
do.ob said:
I think you're overstating things a bit. Everyone can see that even if he stays this summer Sancho will probably leave the next. They also know that Haaland or Bellingham won't end their careers in Dortmund either. It is true that the club has become more ambitious with their purchases, but in the end it all boils down to money and Dortmund is still a long way off being able to pay top wages and bar some deluded fans everyone understands what that means, it's less of a inferiority complex than it is just the simple reality.
I also think the importance of Hoeneß' comments is overstated. He likes to inject himself in popular narratives. E.g. boasting about that €2m loan that supposedly saved Dortmund just when they started to hurt Bayern on the pitch half a decade later. This is no different and to think his ramblings, especially now that he has become a relic of the past, are driving €100m+ transfers is naive.
In the end it boils to the fact that both their CEO and DoF made a promise, Selling Sancho now - even for €120m - would break that promise and everyone hates being lied to.
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They also knew Sancho wanted out more or less from last season, it's hardly a surprise; if not this year the next for sure. Haaland if he continues like this stays for max 2 more seasons.

Seems to me like Dortmund would be better served to invest in young German talent that would have some sort of connection to the club, more or less like Ajax, and for a team that would have love for the club. Dembele, Sancho, Haaland etc see them as nothing more then a stepping stone to get game time that they wouldn't otherwise get at bigger clubs and when the time comes, they want out. Haaland even has a release clause ffs so he doesn't have to go through the sagas that Dembele and now Sancho are going through. This strategy of developing young foreigners is good for business but not so great for building a team to win the biggest trophies imo.
 
WPMUFC said:
Hey mate :) thanks for the breakdown.

So in a Sancho scenario of "120m euro up front"

and we have



There would be "upfront cost" of 108m pounds (potentially), but the accounts would report this as (potentially) 108 million pounds over a 5 year contract? Also accounting for what we've spent on VDB, it's (potentially) 60 million pounds cash in hand with 150 mil in revolving credit?

So hypothetically, is an upfront fee even possible or it would all come down to a structured deal?
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I would also point out that this 90million capital was in March, we have had another 6 months of COVID since so are finances may be substantially worse. Based on those figures we could just about afford to pay the figures upfront, but we would be leaving ourselves very hard up for cash and considering we are about to go into another season without any fans that don't seem the cleverest idea.

The next quarterly report is due soon, that will give us a better picture of where we are financially but I think fans need to get a bit more realistic that is likely we simply don't have the money to be breaking transfer records right now.
 
cyberman said:
Overstating the new country, city, house bit. He literally lived in Manchester a few odd years ago
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Sancho may know more about England, the country, Manchester, the city, and Manchester United, the football club more than any human on earth. Fair enough.

My only problem is with the OP's assertion (@SteveW) that if Sancho's transfer goes through in the next few days, the "timing will have been basically perfection". That is absolutely not true.
 
Turnip said:
Just bumped into Rashford in Aldi. He was buying a pair of flip flops and a power drill from the middle isle. Anyway, said that the 18th is gonna be JD day.
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We're getting Julian Draxler instead? :(
 
TheLord said:
Sancho may know more about England, the country, Manchester, the city, and Manchester United, the football club more than any human on earth. Fair enough.

My only problem is with the OP's assertion (@SteveW) that if Sancho's transfer goes through in the next few days, the "timing will have been basically perfection". That is absolutely not true.
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Timing couldn't be better if sign him in the next few days.

If we had signed him earlier in the season, his last club games would have been in mid-june. And then no training/practice games, other than the internationals.

He wouldn't even have been able to meet his new team till yesterday.

So literally, no pre-season, no training just a few days of training with the team.
 
Turnip said:
Just bumped into Rashford in Aldi. He was buying a pair of flip flops and a power drill from the middle isle. Anyway, said that the 18th is gonna be JD day.
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Daft cnut could have had a mains powered pizza oven as well if only he'd been willing to look under the pile of industrial grade leaf blowers and fish pickling kits.
 
Zehner said:
Multiple reasons. 10 years ago Dortmund won two CL titles in a row and reached the CL final in the third. They beat Bayern for Reus' signature and the most promising German talent since Franz Beckenbauer, Mario Götze, said in an interview that he could imagine ending his career in Germany. The team was stacked with world class players in many positions: Besides Reus and Götze, there were Hummels, Lewandowski and Gündogan. Then, shortly before the CL final, it became public that Bayern had signed Götze for a laughable amount. As if that wasn't enough, they lost the final and then Bayern bought Hummels and Lewandowski in the following two seasons and constantly belittled the club publicly. So basically, when they were about to enter the top tier, they were shown their place and ever since were bullied by top clubs that signed their best players, at times with very questionable methods (Mkhitaryan, Dembele, Aubameyang). But they grew organically, improved season by season, always with the objective in mind of becoming one of the best clubs in Europe.

Now they're about to enter the top 10 European clubs regarding revenue. They've beaten one of the biggest clubs in the world for the signature of Haaland and amassed an incredible amount of talent with Sancho, Haaland, Reyna, Bellingham and Moukoko again. Now it looked like they'd lose Sancho in this window and logically Hoeneß had to taunt them with that, claiming that they'd never become a top club this way. Most Dortmund fans had made their peace with Sancho leaving but were annoyed with United's messing around. Then Zorc and Watzke drew a line and a real spirit emerged. Many Dortmund fans think that they are realistically able to hold on to the current bunch of talents for multiple years. It was a sign that they wouldn't allow top clubs bullying them any longer. Sancho has sort of become the personification of all that.

If they sell Sancho now, it'll not be recognized as a necessary thing but it'll be received as if they trolled their fans on purpose. They would have to bring up a very, very good reason for that. If they just accept the fee that was initially communicated +10m or something like that, this won't go down well. It'll be perceived as confirmation of their "minority complex". Especially now that they know that Sancho is contracted until 2023 and they could still sell them 2022. This will receive a shit storm worse than Götze and Hummels got, only that it is now directed towards the front men of their own club. Watzke and Zorc know this very well, so there would've been absolutely no point in ruling out a Sancho move that strictly if they didn't mean it. They could've just said a standard phrase or something like that and Dortmund fans would've been like "yeah, that's negotiation tactics but realistically there's no way he's staying".
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Very interesting, thank you Zehner.

I admit I didn't know the majority of that, and generally thought of Dortmund as "the German team that play good football and find and develop talents", and I was unaware of the taunting going on, that's why I found it surprising that they would feel animosity towards United (it's still not Liverpool level, but I get what you were trying to say).

This explains the posturing, the deadlines and the briefs to the media, but I still find it surprising. One would expect a top club to be run with more maturity, especially as part of the lure to players they sign is that its a stepping stone to bigger things (that includes Halaand, Sancho and Bellingham who we were/are interested in). They go because they get more playing time and less pressure, so it's an ideal environment to develop.

I'm not too clued up on their sources of revenue either. If they are reliant on player sales there's no need to make a scene, all the hard balling could be behind closed doors, and like you said, there's no need to put themselves in a position where they'll lose face if they do. No need to make negotiations a zero sum game.

If they feel they don't have to sell and are looking for exposure and headlines though, it could make sense in the short term.
 
Santos J said:
Yes, when he was 14 and joined City from Watford.
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Watford, City, BVB, United all by age 20. Demonstrates real desire, ambition and adaptability: like a very successful immigrant possesses.

Bodes very well for his successful integration into Manchester United.
 
sammsky1 said:
Watford, City, BVB, United all by age 20. Demonstrates real desire, ambition and adaptability: like a very successful immigrant possesses.

Bodes very well for his successful integration into Manchester United.
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came through Watford academy. City saw and poached the talent. Guardiola was playing funny games with first team integration/progression so he pulled a Pogba and turned himself into a superstar at Dortmund, now supposedly coming back to England to the best club in the country.
 
Zehner said:
Multiple reasons. 10 years ago Dortmund won two CL titles in a row and reached the CL final in the third. They beat Bayern for Reus' signature and the most promising German talent since Franz Beckenbauer, Mario Götze, said in an interview that he could imagine ending his career in Germany. The team was stacked with world class players in many positions: Besides Reus and Götze, there were Hummels, Lewandowski and Gündogan. Then, shortly before the CL final, it became public that Bayern had signed Götze for a laughable amount. As if that wasn't enough, they lost the final and then Bayern bought Hummels and Lewandowski in the following two seasons and constantly belittled the club publicly. So basically, when they were about to enter the top tier, they were shown their place and ever since were bullied by top clubs that signed their best players, at times with very questionable methods (Mkhitaryan, Dembele, Aubameyang). But they grew organically, improved season by season, always with the objective in mind of becoming one of the best clubs in Europe.

Now they're about to enter the top 10 European clubs regarding revenue. They've beaten one of the biggest clubs in the world for the signature of Haaland and amassed an incredible amount of talent with Sancho, Haaland, Reyna, Bellingham and Moukoko again. Now it looked like they'd lose Sancho in this window and logically Hoeneß had to taunt them with that, claiming that they'd never become a top club this way. Most Dortmund fans had made their peace with Sancho leaving but were annoyed with United's messing around. Then Zorc and Watzke drew a line and a real spirit emerged. Many Dortmund fans think that they are realistically able to hold on to the current bunch of talents for multiple years. It was a sign that they wouldn't allow top clubs bullying them any longer. Sancho has sort of become the personification of all that.

If they sell Sancho now, it'll not be recognized as a necessary thing but it'll be received as if they trolled their fans on purpose. They would have to bring up a very, very good reason for that. If they just accept the fee that was initially communicated +10m or something like that, this won't go down well. It'll be perceived as confirmation of their "minority complex". Especially now that they know that Sancho is contracted until 2023 and they could still sell them 2022. This will receive a shit storm worse than Götze and Hummels got, only that it is now directed towards the front men of their own club. Watzke and Zorc know this very well, so there would've been absolutely no point in ruling out a Sancho move that strictly if they didn't mean it. They could've just said a standard phrase or something like that and Dortmund fans would've been like "yeah, that's negotiation tactics but realistically there's no way he's staying".
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They accepted the minority complex as you called it when they allowed for a release clause in Haalands contract.
 
Siorac said:
Do we? The last 20 pages or so have been about agent fees and personal terms being agreed already.
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What? That’s literally the story that came yesterday that there’s been progress on the agent fee and personal terms. Cooper repeating it this morning gets turned into some kind of new breaking headline by those awful aggregator accounts. They are actually banned.
 
TheLord said:
Perfection! :O
That is if you think the preseason begins only after the players are on the practice-fields. There's a lot of mental preparation, and there are lots of off-field preparations in every transfer.

You can't go to another city, another country, find a new house to live, get to know your new teammates, the new manager, the new coaching staff, the new team's playing style/tactics/playing-position, and dozens of other important off-field issues and then pretend nothing happened and start firing on all cylinders from day one, when the new English season begins in less than 48-hours, United's (and Dortmund's) next game is in 9 days, and Sancho doesn't even know which country he will live in, let alone which club!!

Like most of us normal human beings, footballers need a period to 'settle in'. I don't know about you, but I'd quite disturbed if had a huge job starting in 9 days, and then I was told that I would have to either live in Germany or in England and that they will be able to tell me only one or two days before the job actually begins.

Lots of transfers take place very late in the transfer window, but this is certainly not ideal from the players' or the clubs' perspective.
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This is absolute nonsense. How was he supposed to all the bolded stuff when we weren't even training up until today?? They were all off on holidays. He'd have been left trying to train alone to maintain fitness. Instead he got a full preseason at Dortmund with plenty of matches. Preseason is actually hugely important. A good preseason can make or break a players year. It should give him an advantage over other players in the squad.

If you think having an extra few mornings free to search for houses is more important than that I don't know what to say to you. Also, it's his home country and a city where he's already lived and made friends. He already knows several of the squad from England and living in Manchester previously. He plays video games with about 10 of the squad. He knows them. It will be an easy adaption.

I get the impression you just don't like being corrected and came up with a dumb justification instead of looked at what I was saying. Also you seemingly cant read. I never said anything about leaving it to the end being ideal. I said if we sign him now or in the next few days it will be close to ideal. Donny's move was timed absolutely perfectly. Full preseason with Ajax while we were on holidays and there at Carrington for the first United training of the new season. Perfect.
 
Zehner said:
Don't know. That may be an indication but in all honesty, that's not even remotely enough for me given the indications to the contrary.
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No deal is ever dead. If we offer a fee Dortmund will accept, it’ll go through. Simple as.
 
GBBQ said:
There are players who need a pre-season to get up and running with the way a club plays, get to know the team and get used to the style of play. Others, like Bruno, come in and impose their style on the team and it the ground running, even when joining in the middle of a season. I reckon Sancho is going to be more of the latter (he knows the area, knows many of his team mates & played with them on international duty and is going into a position where we've not had a specialty player in years so he has a low bar to clear to show improvement) and as long as he's match fit we don't need to worry about him settling.
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Exactly. Also United were on their summer break so he couldn't have done anything with them anyway had he joined 3 weeks ago. He'd have been chilling in London waiting for the England games and doing a bit of training alone. Instead he's had a full preseason and played several friendlies.
 
DevilsOwn said:
Timing couldn't be better if sign him in the next few days.

If we had signed him earlier in the season, his last club games would have been in mid-june. And then no training/practice games, other than the internationals.

He wouldn't even have been able to meet his new team till yesterday.

So literally, no pre-season, no training just a few days of training with the team.
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Exactly.
 
Offside said:
What? That’s literally the story that came yesterday that there’s been progress on the agent fee and personal terms. Cooper repeating it this morning gets turned into some kind of new breaking headline by those awful aggregator accounts. They are actually banned.
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No, the story yesterday was that agent fees and personal terms are no longer a problem. They have been agreed. "Sorted", if you will. This one suggests they haven't been agreed yet, only that there has been progress.
 
How can there be progress in the fees and terms if they're still not agreed? So we offer an amount and they say no thats not enough, but you're getting closer.
 
Siorac said:
No, the story yesterday was that agent fees and personal terms are no longer a problem. They have been agreed. "Sorted", if you will. This one suggests they haven't been agreed yet, only that there has been progress.
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No it wasn’t. It was that progress has been made.
 
Swearing Budgie said:
Yeah because I think I have seen him play a handful of times and have been underwhelmed. When Rooney was his age he was already a game changer.
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I just meant that over 900 pages there should be more than enough opinions on him to be able to judge
 
Chief123 said:
For those who aren't able to access the James Ducker article in Telegraph:

Manchester United given renewed hope of signing Jadon Sancho after breakthrough in negotiations
There are still stumbling blocks – like the £108m fee Borussia Dortmund requested – but the impasse over agents’ fees and wages has ended

Manchester United’s protracted pursuit of Borussia Dortmund and England winger Jadon Sancho has been given a boost after a breakthrough in the impasse over agents’ fees and wages.
Sancho is United manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s top summer transfer target but the fees requested by agents and intermediaries involved in the deal coupled with the player’s wage demands were proving a considerable stumbling block in negotiations.

Yet Sancho’s determination to push through a move before the close of the transfer window on October 5 has helped to break that deadlock and provided renewed hope of a deal.
There are still major hurdles to cross with United yet to agree a fee with Dortmund for Sancho and, so far at least, reluctant to meet the German club’s £108 million valuation of the 20-year-old, who has three years left on his £190,000 a week contract with the Bundesliga side.

It remains to be seen whether there is any negotiation on price but Dortmund insisted last month that Sancho was no longer for sale after an artificial deadline passed without an agreement.
Sources have indicated that they expect Dortmund to be willing to part company with Sancho if the price is right although they have a track record of getting top dollar for their players and negotiations are unlikely to be straightforward.

Nonetheless, the breakthrough over personal terms and intermediary fees is a welcome development for United, who have been determined to learn lessons from the Alexis Sanchez deal.
The Chile striker’s £560,000 a week salary had a destabilising effect on the Old Trafford wage structure while there were also huge payments to his agent and United want to avoid a repeat of that. Sanchez was handed a £9 million payoff last month when he joined Inter Milan on a free transfer.

Solskjaer is determined to further bolster his squad having already signed Holland midfielder Donny van de Beek from Ajax for an initial £34.7 million and believes Sancho would supplement what is already an exciting, vibrant young attack.
However, Solskjaer warned that the Covid crisis had had a significant impact on United’s finances. “We always trying to improve and to see if there’s any way possible that we can improve this squad and bring players in that will have the right level of quality and the right personality and have all the right criteria,” he said. “We all know this summer and this year has been a very strange one and it’s important that everyone understands that this has an effect on football and not everyone can spend millions and millions, and new millions.”

Mason Greenwood has endured a torrid past week after being sent home in disgrace by England for flouting coronavirus protocols when the 18-year-old striker and Manchester City midfielder Phil Foden invited two girls to the team hotel the day after making their senior international debuts against Iceland.

One of those players, Mason Greenwood, has endured a torrid past week after being sent home in disgrace by England for flouting coronavirus protocols. The 18-year-old striker and Manchester City midfielder Phil Foden invited two women to the team hotel the day after making their senior international debuts against Iceland.

Foden underwent a Covid-19 test on Tuesday night and Greenwood was understood to be doing the same on Wednesday, ahead of a proposal return to training with their clubs should they be given the all-clear.
United and City have already condemned the behaviour of their players and Solskjaer is due to speak to Greenwood to remind him of his responsibilities.
But United are keen to protect Greenwood from any further fall-out, even though they expect him to learn some important lessons from the controversy.
Pep Guardiola, the City manager, and Foden are also expected to have talks although the club consider the player’s actions to be out of character and will hope the incident serves to refocus his energies.
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Thought you weren't supposed to put the content from Telegraph articles here
 
Tiber said:
What are they going to update? They may have agreed a salary, but that is pointless if they are still too cheap to meet the asking price
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Well like most are saying, pointless agreeing terms if the club aren't going to bid for him, knowing what BvB want. I'm pretty certain they will pay the 120m they want but are trying to bring this down. Hence why I thought some talk of a bid going may have happened.
 
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