Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

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sammsky1 said:
2 weeks before our first game and window closes in 24 days.

we may not sign others but such posts are hyperbole
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I'm just trying to be realistic about the situation.

Negotiations are at a standstill because neither side is prepared to compromise. Dortmund's stance from the beginning has been: pay the £120 million in full or no deal, and they've shown no signs in relenting at any point in this saga.
 
Random Task said:
I'm just trying to be realistic about the situation.

Negotiations are at a standstill because neither side is prepared to compromise. Dortmund's stance from the beginning has been: pay the £120 million in full or no deal, and they've shown no signs in relenting at any point in this saga.
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Has it ? I thought they was happy with installments.
 
Adam-Utd said:
So do you want cheaper or do you want the best?
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That's the question I'm asking. Is he the best though? A couple of years ago no one even knew he existed at City. Now he's supposedly worth over 100m. My argument is surely we can find someone with that level of talent before they cost the GDP of a small island?
 
DRM said:
That's the question I'm asking. Is he the best though? A couple of years ago no one even knew he existed at City. Now he's supposedly worth over 100m. My argument is surely we can find someone with that level of talent before they cost the GDP of a small island?
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He's 20. A couple of years ago he was an academy player. Which player achieved international reputation before even debuting in a professional team? The last one I can think of is Ödegaard.
 
Chief123 said:
The answer to why Utd are better to go for Sancho than spend it like you’ve mentioned is actually in your own post. “Best young right wing option”.

Yes of course you can spend that money in other areas but you have to understand what you are trying to achieve.

We have the opportunity to sign the best young winger out there who we would reap benefit from for the next 10 years. That opportunity doesn’t come up very often.

The players you mentioned would be useful of course. But you can buy players of similar quality for those positions virtually every summer. They are not in the top drawer in their position. You miss out on them....no big deal, there are other options that become available of similar quality the year after. You miss out on Sancho, you rue it when he’s producing the goods for a rival for 10 years.

By signing the players you’ve mentioned, we would still not be challenging for the league title yet. Neither would we with just Sancho. But by buying Sancho it would give us a much better chance to win the league in 2-3 years time.
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That's a valuable point.

I've wanted Sancho all summer, it is something worth thinking about though after the Hazard for new Chelsea crop example came up.

Have Liverpool made a comparable signing as a requirement to achieve their success?

It could be debated we'd be better off with Regulion, Gabriel, VDB, Torres in our starting line up would get us closer to the top 2 next season over Sancho and VDB.
 
I definitely think Sancho will get a kick up the rear when he joins to get fitter and put himself about more. That was the only negative I noticed, he was a level above technically against Iceland. Martial and Rashford will love playing with him. Fwendsss.
 
macheda14 said:
This isn't true? We paid him 5 million in compensation when we terminated his contract.
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We did, he hasn’t made a penny off us once he took a new job. The way payouts work is you’re paid in principle the sun of money on a monthly basis until the sun is paid out, if you take a job during the 3, 6, 9 month period, whatever it is, you negate the rest of the payout.

So let’s say we agreed to pay him £5m over 12 months. He would get a monthly salary under the condition he doesn’t speak to the press about the sacking or any former players/staff. If he took a job after 3 months we’d also stop paying him.
 
DRM said:
That's the question I'm asking. Is he the best though? A couple of years ago no one even knew he existed at City. Now he's supposedly worth over 100m. My argument is surely we can find someone with that level of talent before they cost the GDP of a small island?
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Check the stats of forwards/wingers at his age or younger and see how he competes.

He is head and shoulders over the rest, only mbappe can compete to him.

will another winger step forward at some point? Maybe. But to have the best English talent around at Manchester United is a big thing.
 
I'm convinced this whole thing is a media creation all along. Neither City nor Chelsea (both with deeper pockets than ours) show any interest in Sancho for the reported prices (don't be fooled by Guardiola that the reason he isn't interested is because Sancho left...truth is he believes he got a cheaper option in Feran Torres). City were similarly offered Pogba before us but saw no value at 89m ...and don't be fooled Pogba's first choice was Man City (after-all much better squad with better chances for silverware).
I believe Ole decided to strengthen several other areas of the squad rather than spend the whole piggy-bank on one player. Ed mentioned in the summer it won't be business as usual and Dortmund clearly stated they were never in negotiations..neither direct nor through intermediaries. And I believe them as I doubt the president would come out that publicly if it wasn't true.

Ole has also repeated multiple times he isn't interested in any player coming here for money and the Sancho camp, their transfer history and wage demands have money written all over them.
 
Mr PG said:
I'm convinced this whole thing is a media creation all along. Neither City nor Chelsea (both with deeper pockets than ours) show any interest in Sancho for the reported prices (don't be fooled by Guardiola that the reason he isn't interested is because Sancho left...truth is he believes he got a cheaper option in Feran Torres). City were similarly offered Pogba before us but saw no value at 89m ...and don't be fooled Pogba's first choice was Man City (after-all much better squad with better chances for silverware).
I believe Ole decided to strengthen several other areas of the squad rather than spend the whole piggy-bank on one player. Ed mentioned in the summer it won't be business as usual and Dortmund clearly stated they were never in negotiations..neither direct nor through intermediaries. And I believe them as I doubt the president would come out that publicly if it wasn't true.

Ole has also repeated multiple times he isn't interested in any player coming here for money and the Sancho camp, their transfer history and wage demands have money written all over them.
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You better take cover with a post like that in here but I tend to mostly agree with you.

The only solid bit of information that we have heard directly from either side is from Dortmund stating quite clearly he ain’t going anywhere this season so I tend to regrettably go with that.............INCOMING!
 
Mr PG said:
I'm convinced this whole thing is a media creation all along. Neither City nor Chelsea (both with deeper pockets than ours) show any interest in Sancho for the reported prices (don't be fooled by Guardiola that the reason he isn't interested is because Sancho left...truth is he believes he got a cheaper option in Feran Torres). City were similarly offered Pogba before us but saw no value at 89m ...and don't be fooled Pogba's first choice was Man City (after-all much better squad with better chances for silverware).
I believe Ole decided to strengthen several other areas of the squad rather than spend the whole piggy-bank on one player. Ed mentioned in the summer it won't be business as usual and Dortmund clearly stated they were never in negotiations..neither direct nor through intermediaries. And I believe them as I doubt the president would come out that publicly if it wasn't true.

Ole has also repeated multiple times he isn't interested in any player coming here for money and the Sancho camp, their transfer history and wage demands have money written all over them.
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Coops73 said:
You better take cover with a post like that in here but I tend to agree with you.

The only solid bit of information that we have heard directly from either side is from Dortmund stating quite clearly he ain’t going anywhere this season so I tend to regrettably go with that.............INCOMING!
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If that was the case the club would have come out and denied our interest as we usually do.
 
Random Task said:
I'm fairly certain the deal would have been finalized already if they were happy to be paid in instalments.
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Dude, fairly certain? Have I missed some reliable information on this somewhere, or is it more case of no-one has a damn clue?
 
macheda14 said:
If that was the case the club would have come out and denied our interest as we usually do.
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Perhaps.

I think we probably made some enquires, got told the score and thought feck it can’t do it or can’t do it by that date and have walked away.

like I said, would love it all to be some sort of ruse/negotiating tactic and we do eventually sign him but I just don’t see it happening.

It was interesting that even in commentary last night they mentioned the possibility of him coming to United (can’t remember the exact words) but I do think there is an element of this being media driven, it’s like they really want this to happen despite the comments from the Dortmund hierarchy.
 
RkkMan said:
The frustration would be more to do with how much groundwork has been done to make this deal happen including getting CL football only for it to potentially go down the drain at a point of strength(being in a one horse race). Even if we got a "cheaper" decent alternative our summer will still be severely underwhelming and the reputation on the club being incompetent in trying to close down deals will only continue growing and growing. It won`t paint a good picture that one of the most valuable clubs in the world with all our resources prove incapable of signing one of the best talents in the world just to settle for someone "lesser" and adding Sancho to the list that contains Ronaldinho, Shearer, Aguero, Hazard, Kroos etc of top players we should have gotten but missed out on and it would be even more severe if he joined a rival team.
As for the front 3 I feel we are all pinning too much expectation on Greenwood his talent is immense no doubt but he is simply not a RW by trade but a ST he`s just doing a job there but he needs to seriously polish up his game especially his playmaking if he is to be a "Salah" or "Mahrez" type of player plus he`s still not ready to start 50-60 games a season for us under the pressure of being the main man for Utd. Its best for his development if he`s a rotational player for another season under no pressure as we develop him for what he is(a ST) than what he is not(a RW)
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That reputation is an unfair tag given to the club and for some reasons our fans can't seem to see through it. We consistently failed to sign players like him under fergie, not because of incompetence, but because the team we were negotiating with were being difficult. Pogba and DDG to Madrid were the same level of failure, but Madrid were never talked about as failing to sign him in the way we always are. How many teams failed to sign De Ligt last summer or Mbappe prior. This is without me even talking of our rivals in the league. They also have elongated transfer sagas and failed bids, but literally noone covers it....and when it fails, noone seems to care. Sanchez to City for example should have happened the summer before, noone treated the City negotiators with the disrespect that they do with United's. All the players you mentioned went to clubs and can be best believed had other teams also competing for them, why is it that we are the only ones who get flack for it. Even look at Sancho, how can City simply allow a player like Sancho leave like that, yet for some reason no media attention has caught that in the way they did with Pogba.
 
Random Task said:
I'm just trying to be realistic about the situation.

Negotiations are at a standstill because neither side is prepared to compromise. Dortmund's stance from the beginning has been: pay the £120 million in full or no deal, and they've shown no signs in relenting at any point in this saga.
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Am sure we want Sancho but as has been stated by many, total transfer and wage numbers don’t make sense for us right now.

So that leaves 2 options: prepare ourselves to spend that money over a few other incomings but hope we can win the brinksmanship battle. If that’s the new strategy, then you can’t really push either option til the final week as that’s when either side will blink?

That’s what I think is happening.
 
bsCallout said:
It could be debated we'd be better off with Regulion, Gabriel, VDB, Torres in our starting line up would get us closer to the top 2 next season over Sancho and VDB.
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My main concern with that approach would be yes it would potentially help us close the gap to some extent on the top two. But then if Liverpool go and buy Sancho next summer, that gap suddenly becomes bigger than it was before.

Whoever signs Sancho is adding a seriously heavy asset to their ranks. We can’t afford it to be a rival. It wouldn’t be as bad if we didn’t sign Sancho and he decided to remain abroad with someone else. But he’s clearly stated his desire to come back to the prem. The only prem teams he would go to would all be direct rivals to us. If we really want aspirations of winning the league we need to not only add Sancho to our team, but effectively prevent him being added to a rival team.

It’s essentially like a 6 pointer football match in the transfer sense. Your packing more weight behind your own punch while weakening the opponents punch.
 
Random Task said:
I'm just trying to be realistic about the situation.

Negotiations are at a standstill because neither side is prepared to compromise. Dortmund's stance from the beginning has been: pay the £120 million in full or no deal, and they've shown no signs in relenting at any point in this saga.
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Dortmund have actually never stated they want it in full. And the general understanding is they are happy with instalments as long as the first payment isn’t a low baller.

This confusion over the full 120m keeps coming up due to be lost in translation by the journalists tweeting very summarised messages saying it’s “120m or no sale”.
 
Coops73 said:
Perhaps.

I think we probably made some enquires, got told the score and thought feck it can’t do it or can’t do it by that date and have walked away.

like I said, would love it all to be some sort of ruse/negotiating tactic and we do eventually sign him but I just don’t see it happening.

It was interesting that even in commentary last night they mentioned the possibility of him coming to United (can’t remember the exact words) but I do think there is an element of this being media driven, it’s like they really want this to happen despite the comments from the Dortmund hierarchy.
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We definitely would.

We wouldn't brief that we were still trying for Sancho if we didn't believe we could get him. The fans would go mad if they knew we were wasting time on an unobtainable target whilst not bothering with anyone else. Ole wouldn't be impressed either as i imagine he has a shortlist of other guys he'd like if we geninely can't get Sancho.

We regularly brief when we've cooled our interest - Morata, Griezmann, Dybala etc. I don't recall a time when we've said we're after a player repeatedy and that he's our number one target then not seriously attempted to sign him. Have we ever briefed this much that we're still in for someone before??
 
Worried about the lack of rumours for this guy, or any RW for that matter.
 
Chief123 said:
Dortmund have actually never stated they want it in full. And the general understanding is they are happy with instalments as long as the first payment isn’t a low baller.

This confusion over the full 120m keeps coming up due to be lost in translation by the journalists tweeting very summarised messages saying it’s “120m or no sale”.
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Dortmund haven’t, but both Romano and Falck have, haven’t they?
I might be mistaken.
 
Yeah that lack of smoke is worrying me, I’d be over the moon if we pull this off but it’s not following the usual successful transfer model
 
Red Comet said:
I don't recall our club ever denying our links to Wesley Sneijder and Nicolas Gaitan.
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I don't quite remember, but did we ever brief that we were seriously in for them or was it media speculation?
We've flat out briefed that we want Sancho and that we're still working to get him.
 
DRM said:
That's the question I'm asking. Is he the best though? A couple of years ago no one even knew he existed at City. Now he's supposedly worth over 100m. My argument is surely we can find someone with that level of talent before they cost the GDP of a small island?
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My argument is yes he is the best right winger in the world right now. When put into context of his potential which hasn’t even been fulfilled yet, it’s hard to argue against it.

Yes you could argue just over 2 years ago not many knew about him. But likewise 3 years ago not many people knew much about Mbappe until he started ripping it up in the champions league for Monaco, especially against City.

Likewise just over 12 months ago, majority of people outside of Utd didn’t know who Greenwood was. What value would you put on him based on that measure? Young players will always appear out of the blue. The next thing you look at when a player bursts onto the scene is can they do it consistently. Sancho has now done it two seasons in a row with figures which are some of the best in Europe. He can’t do any more than that. Im not sure what else he needs to do in order to justify his value.

In this day and age, in the market we are in (ignoring the anomaly of covid) with all the money in football, I absolutely agree Sancho is worth the 120m euro investment. I still maintain that is a reasonable asking price by a club who actually doesn’t want to let him go.

The argument of whether any player is worth more than £50m is a seperate argument and not just relative to Sancho. The baseline for how much a player is worth is constantly changing. We can’t stick to prices we are used to like Van Nistelrooy for £25m, Rio for £30m, Rooney for £30m. The scale is always moving due to the money in the game. Our judgement of a players worth needs to adjust to it accordingly.
 
Everyone seems obsessed with getting him and he has had a fantastic couple of seasons with Dortmund. But how has he performed against the big teams, e.g. against Bayern or top teams in the CL. He's never impressed me for England. Could be be a flat track bully? I don't know so maybe someone can enlighten me
 
We really have to get this done as right now we have bought one back up player and the only other player we are linked with us competition for Shaw.

Not exactly going out of our way to improve
 
Coops73 said:
You better take cover with a post like that in here but I tend to mostly agree with you.

The only solid bit of information that we have heard directly from either side is from Dortmund stating quite clearly he ain’t going anywhere this season so I tend to regrettably go with that.............INCOMING!
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Don’t agree, Dortmund have a history of this. Before they inevitably end up selling anyway
 
I still think we are in negotiations cause there are zero rumours of any other player joining us for that position. I highly doubt Ole would be satisfied with James/Ighalo as backup options. And I’m pretty confident Ole would want at least one player (preferably starter) there.
 
Chief123 said:
Dortmund have actually never stated they want it in full. And the general understanding is they are happy with instalments as long as the first payment isn’t a low baller.

This confusion over the full 120m keeps coming up due to be lost in translation by the journalists tweeting very summarised messages saying it’s “120m or no sale”.
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It's been well documented that 120 million is the asking fee by several reputable media outlets. They may be the most reliable these days, but they know a lot more than me about the situation.

They can't be far wrong regarding Sancho's. He has to be worth north of £100 million in today's market, post-covid or otherwise.

sammsky1 said:
Am sure we want Sancho but as has been stated by many, total transfer and wage numbers don’t make sense for us right now.

So that leaves 2 options: prepare ourselves to spend that money over a few other incomings but hope we can win the brinksmanship battle. If that’s the new strategy, then you can’t really push either option til the final week as that’s when either side will blink?

That’s what I think is happening.
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I don't hold it against Dortmund playing hardball as they are. It's a seller's market and they currently hold the most prized asset in Europe right now. Why shouldn't they cash in?

I wouldn't mind spreading the Sancho money across other targets, so long as they're significant upgrades on the players they intend to replace.

I want Sacho as much as the next United fan, but I won't be too displeased if we line up with Greenwood at right-wing instead.
 
OrcaFat said:
Dude, fairly certain? Have I missed some reliable information on this somewhere, or is it more case of no-one has a damn clue?
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Well, as certain as someone who hasn't the faintest idea what's going on can be, which is still more than Mark Goldbridge ;)

Dude.
 
Random Task said:
Well, as certain as someone who hasn't the faintest idea what's going on can be, which is still more than Mark Goldbridge ;)

Dude.
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You are correct @Random Task Utd were/are in discussion for him. This was confirmed by tier 1 journalists that Utd were negotiating, although it seems via a 3rd party. The price Dortmund want is 120meur. Utd thought they had the upper hand as they believed Sancho only had 2 years left on his contract, however it all came out that actually he has 3. As you said it is a sellers market and Dortmund have been very transparent that they will do a deal if the price is met.
 
I want Sacho as much as the next United fan, but I won't be too displeased if we line up with Greenwood at right-wing instead.
I agree with you but then we have to buy another forward. We cannot rely on Greenwood all season and James 9 as we have seen playing for Wales) is better on the left.
 
red4ever 79 said:
You are correct @Random Task Utd were/are in discussion for him. This was confirmed by tier 1 journalists that Utd were negotiating, although it seems via a 3rd party. The price Dortmund want is 120meur. Utd thought they had the upper hand as they believed Sancho only had 2 years left on his contract, however it all came out that actually he has 3. As you said it is a sellers market and Dortmund have been very transparent that they will do a deal if the price is met.
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You don't honestly believe that United didn't know this before approaching Sancho and Dortmund??
Just because it's not revealed to the media, it doesn't mean that the clubs won't know. I'm fairly certain that United knew how long was on his contract, and know the terms that Dortmund want. It's just about finding a happy medium, which i'm sure will happen at some point
 
Brownie85 said:
You don't honestly believe that United didn't know this before approaching Sancho and Dortmund??
Just because it's not revealed to the media, it doesn't mean that the clubs won't know. I'm fairly certain that United knew how long was on his contract, and know the terms that Dortmund want. It's just about finding a happy medium, which i'm sure will happen at some point
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With Woodward and Judge in charge of our negotiating, yes I believe it. I do agree that I think we will get him. However that doesnt take away from the fact that this is precious time being wasted with Woodward and the Glazers fecking around. Player should have been in already.
 
red4ever 79 said:
With Woodward and Judge in charge of our negotiating, yes I believe it. I do agree that I think we will get him. However that doesnt take away from the fact that this is precious time being wasted with Woodward and the Glazers fecking around. Player should have been in already.
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I'm pretty sure that United would have been fully aware of how long was on his contract before attempting to sign him. Makes no difference really in all fairness, doesn't change how much Dortmund want and they'd still happily keep hold of him.

The thing is, i think a lot of people think transfers are like they are on Football Manager, just send an offer, have it accepted or rejected then sign the player in a couple of days. In reality i think it's likely a lot lot lot more difficult than that. Thats the problem, we really don't have much insight into how these transfers are done, and if it's true that Dortmund are using a third party to negotiate rather than directly with United, then it's going to be so much more difficult
 
red4ever 79 said:
You are correct @Random Task Utd were/are in discussion for him. This was confirmed by tier 1 journalists that Utd were negotiating, although it seems via a 3rd party. The price Dortmund want is 120meur. Utd thought they had the upper hand as they believed Sancho only had 2 years left on his contract, however it all came out that actually he has 3. As you said it is a sellers market and Dortmund have been very transparent that they will do a deal if the price is met.
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Theres absolutely no way Utd did not know about Sancho having a contract till 2023. The very first conversation Utd would have had with Sancho’s agent would most definitely have involved discussing his current contract and situation. Even if Utd assumed it was 2 years left, his agent would have no doubt mentioned it.

The only people who were surprised about his extension were the media and journalists.

From what has transpired over the last few weeks, I’ve actually got a theory that the discussions between Dortmund and Sancho last summer involved him getting an upgrade on his salary and extending his contract by one extra year. As part of that contract, I think Dortmund promised him they would accept any offers of 120m euro if anyone came in for him and he wanted to leave. It kind of adds up now from the slow leaks we’ve been getting.
 
red4ever 79 said:
With Woodward and Judge in charge of our negotiating, yes I believe it. I do agree that I think we will get him. However that doesnt take away from the fact that this is precious time being wasted with Woodward and the Glazers fecking around. Player should have been in already.
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Obviously we knew his contract length, especially if it’s true we have agreed terms with him, pretty sure someone would have asked “Yo, Jadon, when does your contract expire?”
 
Red Comet said:
I don't recall our club ever denying our links to Wesley Sneijder and Nicolas Gaitan.
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I also recall that being many many years ago. Over the last 2 years we've come out and shut down links and briefed our pulling gout of deals.
 
Brownie85 said:
I'm pretty sure that United would have been fully aware of how long was on his contract before attempting to sign him. Makes no difference really in all fairness, doesn't change how much Dortmund want and they'd still happily keep hold of him.

The thing is, i think a lot of people think transfers are like they are on Football Manager, just send an offer, have it accepted or rejected then sign the player in a couple of days. In reality i think it's likely a lot lot lot more difficult than that. Thats the problem, we really don't have much insight into how these transfers are done, and if it's true that Dortmund are using a third party to negotiate rather than directly with United, then it's going to be so much more difficult
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I agree with majority of things you say. However barring the VDB signing we have just made we are not good negotiators and getting deals done quickly. I have no doubt that the hold up is due to the installments being offered. I can imagine Utd are offering for example 70m up front with another portion next year and some part made up in bonuses. I would think Dortmund are looking for more of the fee up front, which they are entitled to. Anyway good discussion with you @Brownie85 makes a change on the caf.

p.s we are also crap at selling players but that's for another thread shifting the deadwood :)
 
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