Loves.
Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now
- Thread starter Adnan
- Start date
- Status
Loves.
Sancho destroyer Bayern Munich when they met earlier in the season, and showed his ability against Spurs too. You also need to consider his age and remember any expectation of immediate contribution will be related to his development stage.
He’s a phenomenal talent, probably the best teenager in the world.
What is better? An amazing offer right now or waiting another year in the hope of an even better offer? What if he loses form or gets injured next season. That's a big risk for him. Even if he wants to wait for a bigger club, there's no guarantee he'll be a starter there. At United, there's zero competition at his position.
Sancho Panza?
I don't know, you might be right. I am not sure that it would be a bad option for him to stay there. But I have no idea what he actually thinks.
Money. Fame. Going back home. All things that are important to a 19 year old.
A couple of interesting reports in the link below. First of all, Thorgan Hazard has told reporters that he is moving to Dortmund this summer. Borussia monchegladbach’s manager specifically said, “I cannot deny this”. Secondly, two German newspapers have linked Julian Brandt with a summer move to Dortmund as well.
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/tra...to-turn-to-van-de-beek-if-they-cant-get-pogba
Two more wingers? They already have Larson, Guerreiro, Sancho, Wolf (who plays RB as well). Plus Reus can play on the wing as well. No way Hazard agrees to come unless he is guaranteed playing time. Brandt as well. I think they are preparing to sell Sancho. No reason to have 6-7 wingers in a squad.
It must be a price that just a handful of clubs can pay. I doubt Bayern will splash 120m on a player, they don’t have the funds.
You think Hazard is afraid of the likes of Wolf and Bruun-Larsen?
He's filling the slot of Pulisic anyway. A possible Brandt transfer entirely lacks any kind of official corroboration at this point and regardless of that he's played his best games centrally.
You think Hazard is afraid of the likes of Wolf and Bruun-Larsen?
A possible Brandt transfer entirely lacks any kind of official corroboration at this point and regardless of that he's played his best games centrally.
Except for the fact it was reported that Marc Zorc talked directly with Brandt.
Hazard has played mostly on the right this year as an inverted winger.
Pulisic has hardly played this year as Favre prefers Guerreiro and Larson on the left wing.
Brandt can play 10, like Gotze and Reus. Doesn’t mean he’s going to be deployed there.
I suppose one could take the pessimistic view and say, no, Sancho won’t move because Dortmund needs 7 wingers. I prefer to believe that Sancho WILL move because Dortmund isn’t swimming in cash, and wouldn’t be buying proven players like Hazard and Brandt unless they plan to recoup some of those fees with a big sale.
We’ll see.
Dortmund got linked with Brandt yesterday.
Would be smart to sell Sancho for £80m+ and get Brandt for £25m.
Would be smart to sell Sancho for £80m+ and get Brandt for £25m.
You think Hazard is afraid of the likes of Wolf and Bruun-Larsen?
A possible Brandt transfer entirely lacks any kind of official corroboration at this point and regardless of that he's played his best games centrally.
And, Dortmund’s record transfer fee was £27m for Schurrle... Hazard is valued at £40m on transfrmarkt. £65m+ for Hazard and Brandt??? They can’t keep all their players and pay those fees...
Where to begin..
Michael Zorc supposedly met Julian Brandt's father for a chat of undetermined outcome.
Brandt played a pretty horrific first season half as a winger and only regained his form when Bosz used him centrally a role which the player says he prefers.
Pulisic hasn't featured because he's been horrible all season long, not because Bruun-Larsen, who has two goals and two assists to his name in Bundesliga is such a huge force to be reckoned with.
Dortmund already recouped the money for Hazard, who they supposedly only want to pay €25m for, by selling Pulisic and if you read the full reports regarding his transfer you'll see that the clubs are still some way apart.
I'm also not the one claiming that Dortmund are definitely going to buy Brandt, because two papers reported that the club had a talk with his father.
.
I think Felix is better in the box and better finisher too.
It's so difficult for young players to make the move to big clubs like United as the expectations to make an impression immediately are huge. It's great time to buy him but maybe loan him out for a year and let him develop.
Have we signed him yet ?
I'm serious, do we really have to dither and wait for the starting gun? Obviously players can only move during a transfer window, but what's to stop clubs agreeing transfers in advance if all parties are in agreement ? (Pulisic to Chelsea), (Militao to Real).
Slap £85m on the table and get talking.
I'm serious, do we really have to dither and wait for the starting gun? Obviously players can only move during a transfer window, but what's to stop clubs agreeing transfers in advance if all parties are in agreement ? (Pulisic to Chelsea), (Militao to Real).
Slap £85m on the table and get talking.
Buy both, Sancho the provider, Felix to finish
Ok there cool guy. Pulisic already has more goals and assists than last season in less appearances and minutes.
Dortmund may not buy Julian Brandt, but someone is with a release clause of €25m. With other suitors, Leverkusen will just take the highest offer.
Dortmund has not agreed to the fee for Hazard, but has agreed to contract terms.
I’ve watched about 25 Dortmund matches and the attack is most dynamic with both Pulisic and Sancho on the field. Larsen is better crossing the ball than Pulisic from the left and a bit more workmanlike. Pulisic almost takes touches away from Sancho (not good) because they both drift centrally in the final third. Also, Sancho’s best position is RW, so is Pulisic’s... that’s why Pulisic has been in and out of the lineup.
I suppose the Sancho transfer may not happen, but spending 65m on two more wingers (or one more winger and a third 10) is bizarre. If you are keeping Sancho, you use the Pulisic money for a top striker rather than buy more wingers. Dortmund’s biggest problem is finishing in the attack, not creation of chances...
Yes you are right he did but it is the second time he played them in the 5:0 defeat that indicates how much work there is to do. Once they closed the channels he found it difficult to find any space to counter. Which is the problem we are having with our own forwards.
I just don't think he is worth a bid in excess of 100 million - I would have been happy for us to have paid that or more for Mbappe because his maturity and decision making was already world class. It is a lot of money for undeveloped potential. We have Martial and Rashford who have been regarded as the best at one point or another and not really developed them for one reason or another.
Pulisic was incredible against Bayern in 2017 and then this term has suffered a bit from second season syndrome. I think Chelsea paid the right kind of fee for him in Jan. I don't think Sancho is that much different from him talent wise. I think 55-60 million would be a reasonable fee but anything more is a huge risk.
For England I can not see him starting ahead of Sterling, Kane and Rashford. I also think Foden is more talented - different position I know but Foden also showed a strong mentality to stay and fight for a place at City and I believe that he will overtake Sancho development wise before long because he is training and playing with world class players every day in a far stronger league.
This is just my opinion. I am just as likely to be horribly wrong and we buy him and he turns into Ronaldo Mark 2.
I think it's a fair assesement, he's only really had one top season so the risk is real.
But similarly Mbappe struggles when there's no space, and PSG paid £180m for him. For the top potential talents now you need to spend the £80m - £100m figures, because the likes of Hazard and Salah's are £150m+.
I think Pulisic isn't as talented as Sancho imo and I'd be very surprised if Sancho doesn't displace Rashford for England, Rashford always looks poor out on the wing.
Both Pulisic and Sancho have strong enough technique to play on either side, that's not the reason why Pulisic isn't playing anymore. It's because he has developed a habit of biting off more than he can chew. You can see it in his dribbling stats, very high attempted dribbles stat coupled with a mediocre success rate doesn't make for a good team player.
Bruun-Larsen is not good enough on the ball to be a starter for Dortmund, hence him only starting when Guerreiro, who isn't a proper winger himself either, isn't fit, hence Dortmund looking for an upgrade.
The same logic that says Hazard would be afraid of JBL and Wolf would dictate that Sancho would be afraid of Sanchez, Mata and Lingard.
Chance creation actually is an issue for Dortmund as they dropped lots of points because they couldn't break ultra defensive teams. They are actually leading the league in terms of chance conversion and Paco in particular has been quite clinical. It's why the same sources who report interest in Brandt also reported that they are looking for an attacking cm and only consider a backup striker, maybe.
You keep classifying Brandt as a winger even though he plays as a 8/10 and sees his future there.
You keep citing 65m and money as arguments when Brandt is nothing more than speculation and has a 25m release clause anyway. And the same papers you're so eager to take as gospel also report that Dortmund offer the same fee for Hazard, that they under no circumstances would pay Gladbachs asking price and that the player is willing to wait a year.
All the while they already sold Pulisic for 65m.
There just isn't a logical connection to Sancho, he doesn't play on either players preferred position, Dortmund have ruled out selling him (however much that's actually worth) and guys like Götze and Guerreiro who actually share their desired positions are on expiring contracts, so if you want to an argument about an overloaded squad because they might end up with 3 players sharing two positions then those would be the logical sales.
Last edited:
Er.. well Bundesliga haven't finished yet. Would take focus from the titel challenge to announce something like that. Also Dortmund would want to find a deplacement before selling, so they dont have to overpay for his replacement
Mbappe .. I am still in awe of that heel flick pass he did at the world cup against Belgium - but generally agree he does need a bit more room. He is so quick and agile though so generally he makes his own space.
Do you not think that Rashford looked great in the Nations League - he played out on the right then? I just think he has lost form like pretty much every Man Utd player. Class is permanent and I do think it is a little bit early to write him off. Sancho could just as easily take a dip. Inexperience and inconsistency just go so well together!
Pulisic ...you could very well be right, it is hard to judge when his second season has not been as good as his first. Will be interesting to see what he does next season and the effect it has on Hudson Odi when he returns from injury.
I agree that Pulisic has not been as good as previously in dribbling 1v1, however, his movement in the final third has improved, his poor dribbling stats were mostly from earlier in the season. He has come on as of late and been very good. Given his youth, and the poor alternatives (your words) you’d think that Favre would be open to having Pulisic starting most matches. But no. There is a tactical reason Favre prefers Larsen.
Regarding Sancho, you have no idea, I have no idea. Unless you work for Dortmund. Which is unlikely.
It’s called speculation. That’s what we do.
Every Dortmund fan realises that when dealing with their club it's a question of the price, rather than availability.
I'm pretty sure Mkhitaryan was stated by their management as unsaleable... 2 weeks before he was sold.
I'm pretty sure Mkhitaryan was stated by their management as unsaleable... 2 weeks before he was sold.
@DSG @do.ob
There's also the possibility that Favre plans with Hazard centrally as well as on the wings. He partly played him there in their time together at Gladbach, and my guess is that he sees him as an option for at least three, perhaps all four offensive positions. So he may be more than just an addition to the winger pile.
On Pulisic I think do.ob's version is probably correct. He just wasn't very good this season, and he didn't adapt well to Favre's fluid passing style in terms of decisionmaking. He was also injured quite a bit, but I don't think that was a main reason. Another possible factor may be tactical soundness in defense; I can't make a judgement there, but I'm sure Favre puts a lot of emphasis on that aspect.
There's also the possibility that Favre plans with Hazard centrally as well as on the wings. He partly played him there in their time together at Gladbach, and my guess is that he sees him as an option for at least three, perhaps all four offensive positions. So he may be more than just an addition to the winger pile.
On Pulisic I think do.ob's version is probably correct. He just wasn't very good this season, and he didn't adapt well to Favre's fluid passing style in terms of decisionmaking. He was also injured quite a bit, but I don't think that was a main reason. Another possible factor may be tactical soundness in defense; I can't make a judgement there, but I'm sure Favre puts a lot of emphasis on that aspect.
It’s possible that Favre’s requirements for that other winger position didn’t fit Pulisic well. I agree he’s been inconsistent, but he’s also had some great performances. The fact that they have sold him means Favre doesn’t rate him and wants to invest that money in other players. It’s bizarre that they are buying more midfield attacking players when Alcacer hasn’t been great since his red hot start, Burki is a bit suspect and they are playing Weigl at CB. Wolf isn’t a real RB. Hakimi is on loan. Their issue this season is too many costly defensive errors.
Look, I HOPE they sell Sancho to us, but it probably won’t happen. But given their recent results and the chatter in the market, it seems they are strengthening in areas that are already strong and ignoring their serious shortcomings.
He only had a year left on his contract.
We seem to have a streak of bad luck regarding these kinds of buying a duo for providing - finishing:
- In 2014: We bought Di Maria to provide and Falcao to finish.
- In 2016: We bought Pogba to provide and Ibrahimovic to finish.
Not trying to be pessimistic here. Just that I'm seeing a pattern...
If we end up signing Sancho, I would like to play with a 4231 formation (in case Pogba leaves).
Sancho is more a winger than a wide forward, that's why a player like Felix behind the striker could be an interesting option.
Sancho is more a winger than a wide forward, that's why a player like Felix behind the striker could be an interesting option.
Pulisic fits the profile, he just doesn't execute it well. It's hard for him to have had "some" great performances given that he barely plays anymore. The last league game where he directly contributed to a goal as a starter was in September. In the CL he didn't do so at all and they didn't sell him because of Favre, they sold him because his contract forced them.
Bürki has been one of their most consistent performers this season.
Wolf is playing at RB because both Hakimi and Piszczek have been injured.
Weigl is playing at CB, because Diallo is needed at LB (a position which will be adressed next summer according to media), because he's earned it with performances and because Zagadou is out of favour for the moment, after choking against Bayern.
Meanwhile the squad is actually in desperate need of a LM (Hazard), because the only other serious contender for that position is Guerreiro, who is actually more of an CM than a winger (which tends to cause positional problems) and who really enjoys picking up muscle injuries. With Dahoud not being an option Götze has to share the striker position with Paco, he has to be Reus' backup and he's the one who is designated to replace Delaney in CM, when the team needs more creativity from deep. It's only logical that the club buys another attack minded player for the center, be it Brandt or someone else.
Nothing of what you say has any connection to a possible Sancho transfer and large parts of it are just plain wrong.
The fact Dortmund sold Pulisic probably has very little to do with Favre not rating him. Pulisic has always been quite open about the fact that he dreams of playing in the PL one day. So it was always a matter of time until he would move on. Add to that the fact that his contract was running out Dortmund actually did really well to get as much money out of the deal as they did. Considering his performances were quite lackluster this season it was probably not that hard to let him go, even though I am sure he will get his mojo back at some point, he can be a fantastic player. But none of this really has a lot to do with Favre.
You say that "they are buying more midfield attacking players" when there is actually only one credible rumour so far which is Hazard who would be the direct replacement for Pulisic. The rest is just media chatter at this point. They will probably bring in a back up for Alcacer. Bürki has actually had a fantastic season and I see no reason to replace him. They are playing Weigl at CB because they have had a lot of injuries in that position. Nominally they have four excellent CBs in Akanji, Diallo, Zagadou and Toprak. Where they have indeed been lacking is in the fullback positions with two aging players (Schmelzer, Piszczek), Hakimi covering both sides and recently Wolf helping out as well. Additionally that shortage lead to Diallo helping out at RB a lot which in turn lead to Weigl moving to CB. All in all: They are lacking in fullback positions, a problem that was amplified by a lot of injuries in defense. This will of course have to be addressed.
Which leads to your perception of "chatter in the market". I think you might be falling for some kind of confirmation bias since there has indeed been a lot of "chatter" about defensive players as well. You probably just have not heard about it because rumours about awesome offensive players tends to spread further than less sexy defensive players. They are for example being heavily linked with Nico Schulz, a left back from Hoffenheim and there is also "chatter" about Filipe Luis, Jerome Roussillon or Alfonso Pedraza. I am sure there will be at least one fullback coming in. And no, Dortmund do not need Sancho money to afford that.
All of this does not mean Sancho will definitely not move. It also really does not indicate that he does though.
@do.ob was quicker, but since I was already typing, here's my answer:
What happens at the striker positions will propably depend on
a) what they expect from a fully fit Alcacer
b) how much potential they see in Isak
c) if they see Hazard as an option there (which I think they might)
d) their assessment of Götze (including his contract situation)
I can imagine a high profile transfer (young top talent), but I also wouldn't be surprised if they decide to simply upgrade their depth and further develop what they have.
I'm sure club and coach see the main solution for their defensive issues in better organization, the continued development of their talented, but young & relatively inexperienced players, and enough quality in depth when starters are injured. Plus fullback positions.
Like do.ob said: No issues with player type, imo.
Creativity is a problem for every side that faces deep defenses on a regular basis. I don't think it's bizarre they aim to strengthen their top end and depth in the attacking department. Surplus players will leave.
What happens at the striker positions will propably depend on
a) what they expect from a fully fit Alcacer
b) how much potential they see in Isak
c) if they see Hazard as an option there (which I think they might)
d) their assessment of Götze (including his contract situation)
I can imagine a high profile transfer (young top talent), but I also wouldn't be surprised if they decide to simply upgrade their depth and further develop what they have.
Bürki has been outstanding this season, among their key performers along with Reus, Witsel, Sancho imo. Weigl started the season as their fifth CB option, he played because of injuries and then because he had some good games. GK and CB are settled, the only question marks are on backup level (Weigl/Toprak - possible transfers; Balerdi - immediate performance level).
I'm sure club and coach see the main solution for their defensive issues in better organization, the continued development of their talented, but young & relatively inexperienced players, and enough quality in depth when starters are injured. Plus fullback positions.
Chatter so far suggests to me they have been looking at exactly the right places: fullbacks (Schulz), CM (Eggestein, although he chose to stay at Bremen), forward line. We'll see what eventually happens, but my guess is they'll buy 1-2 fullbacks, 1-2 CMs, 1-2 wingers/forwards, partly depending on who will leave.
Er..well Madrid have just 'bought' Jovic ! And why do you have to overpay for a replacement, the fee can be kept quiet until the transfer happens.
Good shout, being pessimistic myself, let's hope its third time lucky ?
I guess we were thinking similar things at a similar time @do.ob @Synco 
Just touching on your
I think this is well put, even though I don't really expect Hazard to play as a central striker, maybe as some sort of last resort but in my opinion he should not be planned there. Isak has been having an excellent time at Willem II, especially goal scoring wise. I am still not convinced he will be able to break into the Dortmund team and would prefer them to buy another talented player to play back up for Alcacer and ideally replace him at some point. Would of course be thrilled if Isak is able to step up but I am a bit doubtful about his physique. Time will tell and we will see how the people making the decisions see his development.
Concerning Götze I expect his contract to be extended. He has established himself as a regular starter and an important team player. I think he may have finally found his place. Not the flashy superstar that people were expecting him to become at some poing (myself very much included) but simply a cog in Dortmunds system. In this role as part of the system he has steadily improved this season and I think Watzke already said at some point that they were in talks about a contract extension.
I briefly touched on this but did not talk about the CM that you are mentioning. There I think the dynamic element needs to be addressed. Witsel and Delaney both stand for a more physical component that is necessary and they have both been delivering. Additionally we also need someone to provide dynamic impulses, this has been done by Gündogan before for example and that role was supposed to be filled by Dahoud. Since he has not been able to step up this season either I think Dortmund will have to bring someone in to take that part. That someone could actually well be Brandt but I am not sure.
Overall I agree with your assessment where Dortmund need to strengthen the squad while of course it largely depends on who is leaving as well.
Just touching on your
I think this is well put, even though I don't really expect Hazard to play as a central striker, maybe as some sort of last resort but in my opinion he should not be planned there. Isak has been having an excellent time at Willem II, especially goal scoring wise. I am still not convinced he will be able to break into the Dortmund team and would prefer them to buy another talented player to play back up for Alcacer and ideally replace him at some point. Would of course be thrilled if Isak is able to step up but I am a bit doubtful about his physique. Time will tell and we will see how the people making the decisions see his development.
Concerning Götze I expect his contract to be extended. He has established himself as a regular starter and an important team player. I think he may have finally found his place. Not the flashy superstar that people were expecting him to become at some poing (myself very much included) but simply a cog in Dortmunds system. In this role as part of the system he has steadily improved this season and I think Watzke already said at some point that they were in talks about a contract extension.
I briefly touched on this but did not talk about the CM that you are mentioning. There I think the dynamic element needs to be addressed. Witsel and Delaney both stand for a more physical component that is necessary and they have both been delivering. Additionally we also need someone to provide dynamic impulses, this has been done by Gündogan before for example and that role was supposed to be filled by Dahoud. Since he has not been able to step up this season either I think Dortmund will have to bring someone in to take that part. That someone could actually well be Brandt but I am not sure.
Overall I agree with your assessment where Dortmund need to strengthen the squad while of course it largely depends on who is leaving as well.
Pogba provided and Ibrahimovic finished.
With the fee involved, we expected it to be on the same level as the Gerrard - Torres combination. Or at least on the same level as Fabregas - Costa combination level in 2014 - 2015.
What we have from the Pogba - Zlatan combo was decent, but still far away from what we expected (And needed).
Last edited by a moderator:
this is tricky for dortmund, this summer they will get close to 90m-100m for him, imagine if he has a below par season like Sergej had, last year he was quoted 120m, now Lazio wonth even get close to that!
Every week I watch this guy and am more and more convinced. He’s not even been his most spectacular today, but he’s still been class. Very consistent this season.
He’s an absolute must for us whenever the time comes for him to leave Dortmund.
He’s an absolute must for us whenever the time comes for him to leave Dortmund.
Given you are a Dortmund supporter, and all of the needs Dortmund has, will Pulisic’s transfer fee be enough to cover their aspirations in the transfer market? If they buy 3-4 players, do they have the cash to spend, say, 40m in addition to the 60m+ they raised by selling Pulisic? Or will they need to sell other players?
I’ve seen a lot of Burki errors over the last 3 years. He is a good shot stopper IMHO, but is there a recency bias here?
I cannot believe that Alcacer will be the first choice striker for a club like Dortmund. His track record suggests his red hot form earlier this season was a blip rather than the norm.
I won’t comment on the Sancho transfer as it is clear that several members are reading the rumors differently than I am, which is fine. Maybe I am wrong, and he won’t move this summer or next winter. It might be better for us if Dortmund stays firm, doesn’t sell and we can use out transfer kitty to upgrade the squad in other areas, hopefully get CL football next season and table an offer for Sancho in summer 2020.
Watching the game as well, ya know, I don’t think he’s been great. 100m seems an awful lot for him based on this game so far.
- Status