Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

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@Stretender

Whether people like it or not football is a business and the elite clubs are playthings of rich people or groups of rich people. So best not to expect some moral fortitude from those in power.

Two specific things you mentioned: the prices of players - you can debate values all day, but again, football is embedded in the world of money and entertainment, so prices reflect what demand there is. No player should be worth or sold for 90m, but if Mbappe was put up for sale today for 90m, you'd probably have a queue of the top 10 clubs willing to pay that, by any means necessary. Any significant transfer activity now is a gamble, but we're seeing most, if not all, of our domestic rivals take that gamble. Going into a season with a thin or a weak squad is likewise, also a gamble - with view to sponsorship deals and CL money. If Sancho was our player, I don't think I'd want the club to sell for anything below 100m, regardless of the current market.

Also, if the club were to go bankrupt, as you suggested, it wouldn't be asset stripped and ultimately destroyed. The Glazer cnuts would then encourage a bidding war and pocket anything upwards of a billion, whilst our debts would be wiped off in the process. I don't mean to sound blasé about it, because it could end up being something altogether diabolical (nation state white washing enterprise) but the club won't go bankrupt, as such.

The wisest decision the Glazers could make - financially - given the economic landscape, would be to appoint top class people to take care of the footballing side of the club's operations as our track record is there for all to see, 100s of millions wasted and one of the highest wage bills in the world with nothing to show for it. That would be the most cost-saving exercise they could engage in.
 
The Boy said:
I have a feeling that United have been quite clever about this. Holding onto to force down dortmund’s valuation might just pay off.
I initially thought the prospect of no fans through the gates for 6 plus months would kill off your bid, but actually thinking about it, if the same happens in Germany (where a 2nd wave is also looking on track) then it pretty much screws next summers window as well, possibly even more so than this one as lots of clubs will have burnt through any reserves that they might have by then.
A 90 million bid now might be Dortmund’s best offer for quite a long time and with no end to Covid-19 in sight, they’d be hard pressed not to accept.
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Given Woodward's corporate background, I reckon he had some McKinsey or JP Morgan people game theory the hell out of this transaction to map out every conceivable scenario and he plotted his negotiation strategy from that. One of those scenarios would have involved the financial impact of a 2nd wave, and it feels like that was the one to help get the lowest price.

The club recently asked fans 'to trust the process'. I think this is what they were referring to.
 
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The Boy said:
I have a feeling that United have been quite clever about this. Holding onto to force down dortmund’s valuation might just pay off.

I initially thought the prospect of no fans through the gates for 6 plus months would kill off your bid, but actually thinking about it, if the same happens in Germany (where a 2nd wave is also looking on track) then it pretty much screws next summers window as well, possibly even more so than this one as lots of clubs will have burnt through any reserves that they might have by then.

A 90 million bid now might be Dortmund’s best offer for quite a long time and with no end to Covid-19 in sight, they’d be hard pressed not to accept.
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Totally agree. I posted earlier today, whatever we bid now is the most Dortmund will ever receive for the player.

They won’t be getting more than what we offer now next summer, that’s for sure.
 
RUCK4444 said:
No I said they do get benchmarked by other sales.

I pointed out the other day that whilst you can’t gauge whether a player will be successful or not by other (similar) sales, the pricing is still benchmarked by those other sales.

You don’t get Sancho for £50 million like some posters seem to bizarrely think he’s worth, he’s being priced at £100+ because of players like Dembele, Felix etc who have gone for that sort of money.
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Then you’ve rapidly changed your tune.

“Why are people comparing Havertz price to Sancho, has no feckin relevance. Something is worth whatever the seller deem it’s worth to them, we can’t expect Dortmund to benchmark their price against Havertz ffs.”

Is this familiar? Should be, you wrote it. I remember because it was as absurd a thing to say then as it is now. If you want to post so aggressively and with such strong opinions, at least be consistent.
 
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jungledrums said:
Then you’ve rapidly changed your tune.

“Why are people comparing Havertz price to Sancho, has no feckin relevance. Something is worth whatever the seller deem it’s worth to them, we can’t expect Dortmund to benchmark their price against Havertz ffs.”

Is this familiar? Should be, you wrote it. I remember because it was as absurd a thing to say then as it is now. If you want to post quite aggressively and with strong opinions, at least be consistent.
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That was in response to people specifically (and repeatedly) comparing those two players prices, in sales that happened to be happening at the exact same time. No telling how those two will correlate.

The two selling clubs could and likely have totally different reasons for selling (or not) as the case may be with Dortmund.

What I’m referring to, as mentioned in last post, is the price for young super star kids such as Sancho has been set in previous windows with Dembele, Felix. That’s the price for top potential with the possibility of maximum return on your investment.

The same way the pricing for elite tier, established players has been benchmarked with Neymars sale.
 
sammsky1 said:
Given Woodward's corporate background, I reckon he had some McKinsey or JP Morgan people game theory the hell out of this transaction to map out every conceivable scenario and he plotted his negotiation strategy from that. One of those scenarios would have involved the financial impact of a 2nd wave, and it feels like that was the one to help get the lowest price.

The club recently asked fans 'to trust the process'. I think this is what they were referring to.
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We were asked to trust the process in January as well... Would love to have the slightest idea of Any process before I could trust it.
 
RUCK4444 said:
That was in response to people specifically (and repeatedly) comparing those two players prices, in sales that happened to be happening at the exact same time. No telling how those two will correlate.

The two selling clubs could and likely have totally different reasons for selling (or not) as the case may be with Dortmund.

What I’m referring to, as mentioned in last post, is the price for young super star kids such as Sancho has been set in previous windows with Dembele, Felix. That’s the price for top potential with the possibility of maximum return on your investment.

The same way the pricing for elite tier, established players has been benchmarked with Neymars sale.
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Not a hill I’d die on, but fair play, persisting until the bitter end...

It’s literally a direct contradiction. I wouldn’t fecking care but you always post with such pointed anger. Ah well, why do I care, I need a coffee.
 
jungledrums said:
Not a hill I’d die on, but fair play, persisting until the bitter end...

It’s literally a direct contradiction. I wouldn’t fecking care but you always post with such pointed anger. Ah well, why do I care, I need a coffee.
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Listen you’ve obviously taken offence to something that was never intended that way, that’s your decision not mine.

There is a quite clear distinction between the two points and the context of the subject at the time of posting them.

Enjoy your coffee.
 
Given the COVID19 crisis and its financial implications. If the transfer committee doesn't value Sancho at €120m, then they should simply walk away.

Just for comparison (regardless of what Dortmund value him), the most recent high profile transfers of similar amount are

1) Eden Hazard (Chelsea to Real Madrid)
- Has won 2 PL, 2 Europa League and 1 FA Cup
- Transfer fee of approximately €100 million, which may rise to €146.1 million due to add ons
2) Joao Felix (Benfica to Atletico)
- Has won on 1 Primeira Liga and has the hallmark of a generational talent
- Transfer fee of €126 million
3) Antoine Griezmann (Atletico to Barca)
- Has won 1 Europa League and 1 World Cup
- €120 million buy-out clause

Out of all these, its probably right from Dortmund perspective to ask €120 million because talent wise and potential wise Sancho seems closer to Felix. One thing to remember though when comparing Sancho to Felix is Atletico had the money to spend. They simply invested the money that Griezmann sale created to buy someone 10 yrs younger.
In comparison, what has Sancho won? Nothing!! Dortmund have finished runners up in both the seasons and obviously his stats are amazing, but we do not know if he has that winning mentality in my opinion to have hefty price tag.

Another thing to note is, €120 million is basically double the value we paid to Bruno. Are we saying that Sancho is twice the player Bruno is? No way, Bruno is a class above with his general approach to the game. We have to remember that Lucien Favre kicked Sancho out of the squad earlier this year for lack of application.

When you come out of the bubble and look into this transfer without rose tinted glasses, there is a lot of similarity between Felix's transfer and Sancho's evaluation from Dortmund. Does United have the money to spend, all indications until now prove otherwise. If United does indeed decide to shell out €120 million on Sancho, he will be under immense pressure to perform in a completely new league.
 
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It’s very tense in here. There’s no point starting to lash out at each other. This will either happen or it won’t and we will all be here living the same lives and Sancho won’t even know, let alone care. Perspective people, that’s all I ask. Oh, and one more thing ...................




Happy Sancho Day, today’s the day
 
I envision Man Utd landing Sancho before the window closes, and in a year Haaland will drop clues how he'll go to where his buddy is.:drool:
 
I can’t believe this thread is still going so strong, Especially the bickering :lol: what’s left to talk about, don’t we just have to wait now and see
 
RUCK4444 said:
It’s inevitable with Ed’s snails pace progress :lol:

I’m off to bed. Big day tomorrow.
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I only pop in now and then and read the last few posts of the thread, hard to tell if the page is 1 hour old or 1 month old :lol:
 
SuperiorXI said:
See a doctor
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I did see the doctor thanks and he thinks I’ve got something called the Sancho bug.

He said symptoms to look out for were :
• frequent searching of “Sancho latest” via google
• frequent browsing of the Jadon Sancho thread on redcafe.com

Think a few might have caught it in here.
 
Syphon Wallet said:
We were asked to trust the process in January as well... Would love to have the slightest idea of Any process before I could trust it.
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I’m not defending Woodward nor am I a fan of his! Just stating what he might have done.

He thinks money before team which is why Bruno was delayed for half a season so he could save £15m. From his point of view, very worth while

it’s not my money and I have very little vested interest for my opinion to matter so not sure my criticism is worth anything anyway!
 
Fido said:
Given the COVID19 crisis and its financial implications. If the transfer committee doesn't value Sancho at €120m, then they should simply walk away.

Just for comparison (regardless of what Dortmund value him), the most recent high profile transfers of similar amount are

1) Eden Hazard (Chelsea to Real Madrid)
- Has won 2 PL, 2 Europa League and 1 FA Cup
- Transfer fee of approximately €100 million, which may rise to €146.1 million due to add ons
2) Joao Felix (Benfica to Atletico)
- Has won on 1 Primeira Liga and has the hallmark of a generational talent
- Transfer fee of €126 million
3) Antoine Griezmann (Atletico to Barca)
- Has won 1 Europa League and 1 World Cup
- €120 million buy-out clause

Out of all these, its probably right from Dortmund perspective to ask €120 million because talent wise and potential wise Sancho seems closer to Felix. One thing to remember though when comparing Sancho to Felix is Atletico had the money to spend. They simply invested the money that Griezmann sale created to buy someone 10 yrs younger.
In comparison, what has Sancho won? Nothing!! Dortmund have finished runners up in both the seasons and obviously his stats are amazing, but we do not know if he has that winning mentality in my opinion to have hefty price tag.

Another thing to note is, €120 million is basically double the value we paid to Bruno. Are we saying that Sancho is twice the player Bruno is? No way, Bruno is a class above with his general approach to the game. We have to remember that Lucien Favre kicked Sancho out of the squad earlier this year for lack of application.

When you come out of the bubble and look into this transfer without rose tinted glasses, there is a lot of similarity between Felix's transfer and Sancho's evaluation from Dortmund. Does United have the money to spend, all indications until now prove otherwise. If United does indeed decide to shell out €120 million on Sancho, he will be under immense pressure to perform in a completely new league.
Click to expand...

Felix was coming from a more inferior league than Sancho though. Sancho has done it in the CL and against Bayern on the domestic scene.

In relation the Bruno talent, again coming from an inferior league, his time in Italy wasn't a great success and he's a lot older.

With Sancho you're buying a mix of talent, potential and longevity. He could go into any side now most likely and put up great number and be a success despite only being 19. He also has scope for development and could/will become better so you're also investing in that. In addition, your getting 10 years out of him if you invest that sort of money in him, similar to Rio/Rooney at the time which were considered big fee;s/

Hazard and Griezmann were the finished article, there not going to improve on what they have already shown and you are getting 3-4 years out of them max, then a decline probably.
 
Fido said:
Given the COVID19 crisis and its financial implications. If the transfer committee doesn't value Sancho at €120m, then they should simply walk away.

Just for comparison (regardless of what Dortmund value him), the most recent high profile transfers of similar amount are

1) Eden Hazard (Chelsea to Real Madrid)
- Has won 2 PL, 2 Europa League and 1 FA Cup
- Transfer fee of approximately €100 million, which may rise to €146.1 million due to add ons
2) Joao Felix (Benfica to Atletico)
- Has won on 1 Primeira Liga and has the hallmark of a generational talent
- Transfer fee of €126 million
3) Antoine Griezmann (Atletico to Barca)
- Has won 1 Europa League and 1 World Cup
- €120 million buy-out clause

Out of all these, its probably right from Dortmund perspective to ask €120 million because talent wise and potential wise Sancho seems closer to Felix. One thing to remember though when comparing Sancho to Felix is Atletico had the money to spend. They simply invested the money that Griezmann sale created to buy someone 10 yrs younger.
In comparison, what has Sancho won? Nothing!! Dortmund have finished runners up in both the seasons and obviously his stats are amazing, but we do not know if he has that winning mentality in my opinion to have hefty price tag.

Another thing to note is, €120 million is basically double the value we paid to Bruno. Are we saying that Sancho is twice the player Bruno is? No way, Bruno is a class above with his general approach to the game. We have to remember that Lucien Favre kicked Sancho out of the squad earlier this year for lack of application.

When you come out of the bubble and look into this transfer without rose tinted glasses, there is a lot of similarity between Felix's transfer and Sancho's evaluation from Dortmund. Does United have the money to spend, all indications until now prove otherwise. If United does indeed decide to shell out €120 million on Sancho, he will be under immense pressure to perform in a completely new league.
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Agree mostly but i'm not sure i put winning the Portuguese league on any pedestal.
 
I hope if we are not signing Sancho the board signs one alternative right winger like Sarr. Normally I like the idea of either getting the first target or not signing anybody at all. But given the condition of our squad, not signing anybody is simply not an option. If (big if) there is any truth in the rumour that we are submitting a bid next week, I hope the club also has an alternative in mind.
 
sammsky1 said:
40m euro loss last year? in need of a cash injection!
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The loss is no big deal. Everyone posts loss in this difficult period.
As of 30/06, BVB only had 3M cash in bank and already drawn down 8M out of 60 M credit facility. They are so short of cash.
Moreover, 27% of Total sales revenue comes from player transfer in the period 19-20. Their business model is heavily dependent upon players sales. If they think Sancho worth more next year, why don’t they sell someone else to balance the book?
 
Fido said:
Given the COVID19 crisis and its financial implications. If the transfer committee doesn't value Sancho at €120m, then they should simply walk away.

Just for comparison (regardless of what Dortmund value him), the most recent high profile transfers of similar amount are

1) Eden Hazard (Chelsea to Real Madrid)
- Has won 2 PL, 2 Europa League and 1 FA Cup
- Transfer fee of approximately €100 million, which may rise to €146.1 million due to add ons
2) Joao Felix (Benfica to Atletico)
- Has won on 1 Primeira Liga and has the hallmark of a generational talent
- Transfer fee of €126 million
3) Antoine Griezmann (Atletico to Barca)
- Has won 1 Europa League and 1 World Cup
- €120 million buy-out clause

Out of all these, its probably right from Dortmund perspective to ask €120 million because talent wise and potential wise Sancho seems closer to Felix. One thing to remember though when comparing Sancho to Felix is Atletico had the money to spend. They simply invested the money that Griezmann sale created to buy someone 10 yrs younger.
In comparison, what has Sancho won? Nothing!! Dortmund have finished runners up in both the seasons and obviously his stats are amazing, but we do not know if he has that winning mentality in my opinion to have hefty price tag.

Another thing to note is, €120 million is basically double the value we paid to Bruno. Are we saying that Sancho is twice the player Bruno is? No way, Bruno is a class above with his general approach to the game. We have to remember that Lucien Favre kicked Sancho out of the squad earlier this year for lack of application.

When you come out of the bubble and look into this transfer without rose tinted glasses, there is a lot of similarity between Felix's transfer and Sancho's evaluation from Dortmund. Does United have the money to spend, all indications until now prove otherwise. If United does indeed decide to shell out €120 million on Sancho, he will be under immense pressure to perform in a completely new league.
Click to expand...

You are using team trophy to compare young players? Since when do a winning Portugal league > scoring nearly 20 goals + 20 assist of individual performance in Germany when assessing a player?
In any sense, Sancho > Joao Felix, by quite a margin.
 
Stretender said:
There are people on here , I don't know if they are genuine Manchester United supporters or not but their attitude stinks. They are somehow convinced that we should pay 120 million for Sancho regardless. No negotiating of the price. For them paying more for Sancho is like something to brag about or it will prove how important Sancho is.

They would be the first people to castigate Woodward and the Glazers if Manchester United went broke because of irresponsible spending.

My only view or take on it is that these fans do not live in the real world. Everything is done for them and their mum and dad pay for their credit card.

Sancho is a good player but he is not worth 120 million.

If Ed or indeed Manchester United fail to sign him on that basis, we should all applaud them not condemn them.

People talk about 120 million like its 120 pounds. People are losing their jobs at the moment and for Manchester United, a club based in the North West where all these hardships are common place, it would be heavily irresponsible to splash 120 million on Sancho when most of their fans are out of work. It would be insensitive and could cause unrepairable damage to the club if they went along with it.

Personally I like Sancho but pay as low as possible and not at once. It would be a kick in the teeth to fans whose lives have been turned upside down by covid crisis.

As Manchester United fans on here we need to get REAL.
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This is possibly the strangest post I’ve come across on Redcafe.

Utd shouldn’t spend 120m euro on Sancho because Utd fans are losing their jobs? I’m not sure how that logic adds up.

Secondly, if it’s so irresponsible for Utd to spend that amount of money which for some reason some people believe Utd can’t afford, then maybe Glazers should put back the £90m they took out of the club in recent years? That will surely help the cause right.

It’s astonishing that fans still think it’s irresponsible for Utd to spend 120m euros on a player that would actually improve the club from a football and business perspective, but the same fans are perfectly cool with the owners taking out £90m in dividends despite the club still having debts of over £300m outstanding. Baffling.
 
Stretender said:
I am not levelling accusations at anyone. I am being realistic and its about time people got realistic about the whole thing.

We are not going to win the league this year because we spent 120 million on Sancho. At best it would keep us in top 4.

Why not spend that 120 million on 3 first team players and revisit Sancho when we can actually afford it?

Infact he could actually be cheaper by that time.
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This post is even more bizarre than your last one.

You had a problem with Utd spending 120m euro on a player because Utd fans are losing their jobs and it would be irresponsible of the club.

But you are then suggesting Utd should spend that same 120m on other players. Because Utd fans won’t lose their jobs in that situation right? :confused:
 
Was hopeful about this deal from the beginning and very confident about this happening. Nothing is certain of course but reckon probability is high that we sign Sancho at a price lower than Borussia’s asking.

Woodward has played this well. No doubt BD’s financials have been scrutinised and they need the money. In the intervening weeks of silence no one else has even shown interest in Sancho, and Dortmund will be getting nervous. Of course it can be argued that Sancho staying is good for them Football-wise but when you are cash-strapped Football takes second place.

Clubs have been brought to ruin not by poor Football but by poor finances.

We’ve got other deals lined up and even without Sancho we will get replacements. Sorry to say this but fans who claim we should just pay what Dortmund wants are fools. No one should ever take the first offer, and paying up only sends the signal that we can be ripped off. Negotiating is the only responsible thing to do. If anything the pandemic should be teaching the lesson that unexpected things can happen and having a large margin of safety is critical. Yes we all want United to be back at the races but no one wants the horse to die.

The way I see it, Dortmund will cave. Perhaps not at our bid but certainly not at their asking.
 
Some of the posts here are beyond strange :lol:. Now the Glazers should donate the 120 mill to jobless mancunians it seems.

In the next pages of this thread: Dortmunds physical coach launch onlyfans page in a final plead to Sancho to stopping him from leaving
 
Chief123 said:
This post is even more bizarre than your last one.

You had a problem with Utd spending 120m euro on a player because Utd fans are losing their jobs and it would be irresponsible of the club.

But you are then suggesting Utd should spend that same 120m on other players. Because Utd fans won’t lose their jobs in that situation right? :confused:
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Excellent points.
 
I wonder if we will still have time to sign a LCB and a DM after we bring in Sancho next week before the window closes.
There has been some gossip from trusted sources at the club that the tea lady in the canteen has gone off the boil so there could be incomings there as well so all in all it looks like it is all going to be happening at Manchester next week.
 
@Stretender I agree with your post.

Sancho is not worth 120 million. We spend money like this on a player like Sancho (after not making any sales) it only leads us to overpaying for every player we buy like we always do; but even more on top.
 
Bondi77 said:
I wonder if we will still have time to sign a LCB and a DM after we bring in Sancho next week before the window closes.
There has been some gossip from trusted sources at the club that the tea lady in the canteen has gone off the boil so there could be incomings there as well so all in all it looks like it is all going to be happening at Manchester next week.
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My gut feeling after Upamecano signed extension with Leipzig is we will move for him next summer,in regards to a DM I expect this to be joint top priority then
 
So how much do the confident ones think that this deal gets done for just out of interest
 
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