Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

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Does any United fan even remotely see Sancho as worth paying £108m? It's a completely ludicrous over-valuation IMO.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Does any United fan even remotely see Sancho as worth paying £108m? It's a completely ludicrous over-valuation IMO.
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Yeah, check his numbers across europe, insane for his age with his prime still 7-8 years away. He ticks every box for united from a commercial perspective, position, age, ability, British.

Well worth the money if you compare the player to the likes of Dembele, Felix and the fee's they went for. (Not allowing for a Covid discount - which doesn't exist anyway.)
 
RUCK4444 said:
Yeah, check his numbers across europe, insane for his age with his prime still 7-8 years away. He ticks every box for united from a commercial perspective, position, age, ability, British.

Well worth the money if you compare the player to the likes of Dembele, Felix and the fee's they went for. (Not allowing for a Covid discount - which doesn't exist anyway.)
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Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that either Dembele or Felix have proved to be worth anywhere near the amount of money they went for though? I think they both went for vastly over-inflated amounts of cash and shouldn't be used as comparison. Just because they went for that money doesn't mean they were good deals.

I have yet to really see Sancho play well in any of the games I've watched (which to be fair has mostly been England matches) - no doubt he is doing well in Germany but anything over £80 million I think would be a massive risk.
 
balaks said:
Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that either Dembele or Felix have proved to be worth anywhere near the amount of money they went for though? I think they both went for vastly over-inflated amounts of cash and shouldn't be used as comparison. Just because they went for that amount of cash doesn't mean it was a good deal.
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Fair point to be honest. They were totally overpriced and it was ridiculous money, and most of us said it at the time. Same with Coutinho.
 
balaks said:
Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that either Dembele or Felix have proved to be worth anywhere near the amount of money they went for though? I think they both went for vastly over-inflated amounts of cash and shouldn't be used as comparison. Just because they went for that money doesn't mean they were good deals.
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No but the price is set on previous marquee sales, that's what set's the price, I do happen to think he's a better player than both of those payers though as well.

I'll stand by that whether we do or don't get him.
 
RUCK4444 said:
No but the price is set on previous marquee sales, that's what set's the price, I do happen to think he's a better player than both of those payers though as well.

I'll stand by that whether we do or don't get him.
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Different world now though and if we can clearly see they were overpriced then why on earth would you be happy with overpaying for somebody else? You are happy to do it because other clubs did it with other young players? Doesn't seem like a smart move to me. If a club is willing to pay that amount then that is what he worth - I get that argument, however clearly Utd and other clubs are not prepared to pay £100million+ for Sancho so he is overpriced at that amount if you use that logic.
 
Watching United towards the end of last season and the game against Palace, we need all the creativity we can get. Paying the full price for Sancho might not be a bad idea if he can bring some help. A striker who can finish in the box won't be a bad idea either, don't get who gets dropped from the first team to make room. We need results, not vanity.
 
ghagua said:
Watching United towards the end of last season and the game against Palace, we need all the creativity we can get. Paying the full price for Sancho might not be a bad idea if he can bring some help. A striker who can finish in the box won't be a bad idea either, don't get who gets dropped from the first team to make room. We need results, not vanity.
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I wonder if the strike 'who can finish' is actually Greenwood. Too early maybe.
 
To be honest I’m happy with a front 3 of Rashford - Martial - Greenwood for one more season. They had a really good return last season and they’re all young enough to potentially significantly improve this year.

We need a centre back though.
 
Bratt said:
I think most do, myself included.
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I could be wrong but I'd guess that, given the choice, most United fans would take Son ahead of Sancho in starting for United for the rest of this season.

Is Son worth £108m? No, of course not.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I could be wrong but I'd guess that, given the choice, most United fans would take Son ahead of Sancho in starting for United for the rest of this season.

Is Son worth £108m? No, of course not.
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Doesn't mean Sancho isn't.

He's worth it because he is nowhere near his prime and already so good.
 
balaks said:
Different world now though and if we can clearly see they were overpriced then why on earth would you be happy with overpaying for somebody else? You are happy to do it because other clubs did it with other young players? Doesn't seem like a smart move to me. If a club is willing to pay that amount then that is what he worth - I get that argument, however clearly Utd and other clubs are not prepared to pay £100million+ for Sancho so he is overpriced at that amount if you use that logic.
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You can't be sure of the return on those investments at this stage, also the commercial aspect with United is important for the club.

Also you can't guarantee that Sancho would be a flop because Felix and Dembele were. However the price for that range of player has still been set.

If people had that outlook they would never purchase marquee players for high figures.
 
Lennon7 said:
To be honest I’m happy with a front 3 of Rashford - Martial - Greenwood for one more season. They had a really good return last season and they’re all young enough to potentially significantly improve this year.

We need a centre back though.
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With nothing to fall back on for any of them really, it's basically embracing a disaster waiting to happen.
 
bsCallout said:
Doesn't mean Sancho isn't.

He's worth it because he is nowhere near his prime and already so good.
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nah he isn't worth it at all. come on, your logic about him being nowhere his prime, but already so good means he's worth 108m? 108m is a prime price would you not agree? So if he isn't anywhere near his prime, then why is he worth it?
 
RUCK4444 said:
You can't be sure of the return on those investments at this stage, also the commercial aspect with United is important for the club.

Also you can't guarantee that Sancho would be a flop because Felix and Dembele were. However the price for that range of player has still been set.

If people had that outlook they would never purchase marquee players for high figures.
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It's a massive risk is all I'm saying I guess. I think to pay that amount of cash on any player is crazy in the current climate - especially if you need to pay a significant chunk of that up front. The argument that he is worth it because of Felix or Dembele going for similar amounts is a foolish one for the reasons I've already stated. Utd may yet get him and pay £100million or whatever and he may have a fantastic career for Utd and fully justify the outlay - but it's one hell of a risk for a club to take right now, even for one with almost unlimited funds as Utd. I can understand why the club are maybe hesitating to pay it.
 
balaks said:
It's a massive risk is all I'm saying I guess. I think to pay that amount of cash on any player is crazy in the current climate - especially if you need to pay a significant chunk of that up front. The argument that he is worth it because of Felix or Dembele going for similar amounts is a foolish one for the reasons I've already stated. Utd may yet get him and pay £100million or whatever and he may have a fantastic career for Utd and fully justify the outlay - but it's one hell of a risk for a club to take right now, even for one with almost unlimited funds as Utd. I can understand why the club are maybe hesitating to pay it.
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You’re bang on. I think most people agree with all that. But what should have happened is once we decided it was too much in this climate we should have briefed it was off, we’d go back next year and we’re going to strengthen in other areas. Instead we’ve drip fed all summer that he’s target number one, Dortmund are playing games in terms of the valuation and have done bugger all else.
 
Summit said:
nah he isn't worth it at all. come on, your logic about him being nowhere his prime, but already so good means he's worth 108m? 108m is a prime price would you not agree? So if he isn't anywhere near his prime, then why is he worth it?
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compare it to a young Rooney, you get a decade of a top player
 
I know there was a good feeling and sense of optimism around the United/Pogba relationship at the end of last term. With talk of United and Pogba working on a new contract. I hope Woodward understands that, just like when Rooney refused to sign after we did little in the transfer market, Pogba who is less loyal and committed to United then Rooney was wont sign a new contract without the club showing the Financial De$ire to be a Top European club by making the type of transfers that make that happen.
 
balaks said:
It's a massive risk is all I'm saying I guess. I think to pay that amount of cash on any player is crazy in the current climate - especially if you need to pay a significant chunk of that up front. The argument that he is worth it because of Felix or Dembele going for similar amounts is a foolish one for the reasons I've already stated. Utd may yet get him and pay £100million or whatever and he may have a fantastic career for Utd and fully justify the outlay - but it's one hell of a risk for a club to take right now, even for one with almost unlimited funds as Utd. I can understand why the club are maybe hesitating to pay it.
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Yeah that's a fair opinion, it depends what you believe the player is worth ultimately.

I mentioned Felix and Dembele because they set the bar for what clubs expect to receive when selling a young player of that calibre. It's a risk but with the numbers he's achieved consistently it yields potentially the absolute biggest return on that investment, if he reaches his potential (or even maintains his current club form) for another 10 years then it becomes a bargain.
 
bsCallout said:
Doesn't mean Sancho isn't.

He's worth it because he is nowhere near his prime and already so good.
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Nowhere near his prime - true. Already "so good" is more debateable. He hasn't really stood out when playing for England so far. And playing in the Bundesliga is less challenging than playing in the Prem.

If Son is better (and I'd say he clearly is), and if Son is not worth £108m (which he isn't, by a long chalk), then it seems to me that your £108m valuation argument for Sancho is based mostly on his young age and your belief that (a) he'd adapt well to the Prem; and (b) will improve to the point where he becomes not just better than Son, but much better than Son.

I would have thought that United could far better spend £108m in other ways than on such a risky punt.
 
I think even if we offered the 120m at this point Dortmund would tell us to feck off.
 
Summation as I've always said is that Sancho is not an absolute guarantee. Some will say I'm stating the obvious since that can pretty much be applied to anything. However, you do see high proportion of people act like Sancho is as close to a certainty of success as one can possibly get and I think that is highly dubious. In fact I've actually been uneasy about this from the outset even though making a desperate play for alternatives appears decidedly more unwise.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Nowhere near his prime - true. Already "so good" is more debateable. He hasn't really stood out when playing for England so far. And playing in the Bundesliga is less challenging than playing in the Prem.

If Son is better (and I'd say he clearly is), and if Son is not worth £108m (which he isn't, by a long chalk), then it seems to me that your £108m valuation argument for Sancho is based mostly on his young age and your belief that (a) he'd adapt well to the Prem; and (b) will improve to the point where he becomes not just better than Son, but much better than Son.

I would have thought that United could far better spend £108m in other ways than on such a risky punt.
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The England matches are based on how many matches? His Dortmund career is based on a larger sample size. Bundesliga being less challenging matters not when speaking of a player who only just turned 20 in March. He's at the age where he can improve by a lot, unlike someone who is say, age 25 coming over to the league.

What does a 20.5 year old have to do to prove he is worth it? In other words, what more would Sancho have to do to prove he is worth more than that? Smash Mbappe numbers and put in 5 dominant matches with England?


Also, you're off in your assessment of Son and Sancho. The valuation will also take into account how many years of service he can potentially give to the club. A potential Son transfer would involve 28 year old Son, not a 20 year old Son. Not only will he give less service potentially, but can't be sold for much should he decide to leave due to age.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Does any United fan even remotely see Sancho as worth paying £108m? It's a completely ludicrous over-valuation IMO.
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He'd be quoted for even higher in a normal/non-covid market quite honestly

I don't have much of a problem with their valuation, Havertz went for up to 100m and a younger Sancho put up better numbers in less time than him in the same league.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Nowhere near his prime - true. Already "so good" is more debateable. He hasn't really stood out when playing for England so far. And playing in the Bundesliga is less challenging than playing in the Prem.

If Son is better (and I'd say he clearly is), and if Son is not worth £108m (which he isn't, by a long chalk), then it seems to me that your £108m valuation argument for Sancho is based mostly on his young age and your belief that (a) he'd adapt well to the Prem; and (b) will improve to the point where he becomes not just better than Son, but much better than Son.

I would have thought that United could far better spend £108m in other ways than on such a risky punt.
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I don't really want to agree with Glaston, but recent years have shown that it is very difficult for players to just €80m+ moves. There's a less than fifty percent hitrate there. Four of the top six most expensive players are Coutinho, Felix, Griezmann and Dembélé. Pogba and Hazard are also in the top 10. There's no guarantee that Sancho would hit the ground running or at least be a transfer you wouldn't want to go back to with your receipt at the end of his first season.
 
elnorte said:
I wonder if the strike 'who can finish' is actually Greenwood. Too early maybe.
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Maybe.... We need players in the box, more than one player going in there. It seems as if our players are slow to react, even slower getting into the box. If Greenwood has to be moved in the middle, I'm all for it. If it's too early for Greenwood, I would like to see another striker purchased. Maybe even try out Ighalo from the start, instead of bringing him on when the game is over. People will ask who do we drop, I don't care as long as someone is getting into the box to finish off chances and half chances.
 
Lennon7 said:
To be honest I’m happy with a front 3 of Rashford - Martial - Greenwood for one more season. They had a really good return last season and they’re all young enough to potentially significantly improve this year.

We need a centre back though.
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Yes most people are content but that isn't the problem. We don't have any good cover for any of those positions.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Nowhere near his prime - true. Already "so good" is more debateable. He hasn't really stood out when playing for England so far. And playing in the Bundesliga is less challenging than playing in the Prem.

If Son is better (and I'd say he clearly is), and if Son is not worth £108m (which he isn't, by a long chalk), then it seems to me that your £108m valuation argument for Sancho is based mostly on his young age and your belief that (a) he'd adapt well to the Prem; and (b) will improve to the point where he becomes not just better than Son, but much better than Son.

I would have thought that United could far better spend £108m in other ways than on such a risky punt.
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Sancho being 20 is a big part of his appeal. If you knew he would be as good as prime Son for the next 8-9 years, he would definitely be worth £108m in my opinion.

I think the biggest thing with Sancho that is rarely discussed, but I'm sure United has the analytics people in place to know about, is that he has really really really massively outperformed his xG and xA numbers the last two years, especially this past year. Some of that may be high quality finishing but even the best finishers don't outperform xG by much in the long run. And nobody should really outperform xA much in the long run as its dependent on how other players finish.

Sancho had 17 goals and 16 assists in the Bundesliga on an xG of 9.3 and an xA of 9. By xG+xA per 90, he was a very good player but not really a standout player in the Bundesliga - pretty similar to guys like Breel Embolo or Christopher Nkunku (actually behind both of them) that nobody is lining up to spend over 100m for. That's what I would be worried about if I was thinking about spunking £108m on him. One of the things United should be asking themselves is "Would we pay this much for the player if he had 11 goals and 9 assists last year, rather than 17 and 16?" Maybe the answer is still yes, in which case you go for the deal. But if the answer is no, then its probably not a good idea.
 
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