Ivan Perisic

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I wouldn't call him average, he's better than that. But it is still a cause for worry because many wingers who flopped in the PL have done really well in Serie A. For example, Cuadrado and Saleh.

Salah didn't flop. He wasn't even playing at all to judge his performance at Chelsea. Jose's favorite right winger was Willian at this time as it suits the team and the play style he wanted to play with so Salah was always on the bench or out of the 18. Flop is only said on players who got chances and failed and he didn't fill this criteria.

Cuadrado was brought as a backup option also. He wasn't intended to be a starter anyway. Jose was very happy with Hazard and Willian as wingers, Salah wanted to leave to Florentine so he got another player as a backup instead of Salah. Simple.

Both aren't good examples of the point you want to prove.
 
I find it extremely funny & short-sighted when people say such and such player tore *insert national team here*.h

Perisic plays very well for Croatia. In the Euros, he was their best player vs Spain. So...? Memphis Depay also danced around Spain in a 2-0 friendly win. It means nothing, nil, nada. What matters or should matter is their club performances. And Perisic has shown that he is an average winger in Italy
Ok firstly, you know one international friendly is different from four games in a high-pressure international tournament don't you?

Secondly, he's hardly shown he's an "average" winger in Italy, as you put it. 10 goals and 10 assists are pretty good stats for a winger in most leagues. I feel like some people in the caf expect every winger to be a Hazard or a Neymar, but the fact is most wingers are supporting cast members; contributors rather than stars. That's what Perisic is. A solid contributor. He won't set the world alight, but if you combine that output with his pace, work-rate and physical strength, you've actually got a seriously decent player there.
 
We need wingers. He is an international quality left winger.

How is this complicated?
 
Salah didn't flop. He wasn't even playing at all to judge his performance at Chelsea. Jose's favorite right winger was Willian at this time as it suits the team and the play style he wanted to play with so Salah was always on the bench or out of the 18. Flop is only said on players who got chances and failed and he didn't fill this criteria.

Cuadrado was brought as a backup option also. He wasn't intended to be a starter anyway. Jose was very happy with Hazard and Willian as wingers, Salah wanted to leave to Florentine so he got another player as a backup instead of Salah. Simple.

Both aren't good examples of the point you want to prove.
Fair point. Gervinho is probably a good example but yeah one player proves nothing.
 
Yep and on the ocassions he was called upon was to pick the ball out of the back of the net mainly due to a clanger he made
Can't say I didn't appreciate his and John Stones efforts last season.

Two players brought especially by the manager to fit his style.

That was the main point I was trying to make.

If Perisic does arrive I hope he is a fantastic success though.
 
Can't say I didn't appreciate his and John Stones efforts last season.

Two players brought especially by the manager to fit his style.

That was the main point I was trying to make.

If Perisic does arrive I hope he is a fantastic success though.

He won't be the next Beckham, Giggs, Figo or Bale. However he is a specialist and if he can contribute like Nani and Blomqvist that will be more than enough.
 
Can't say I didn't appreciate his and John Stones efforts last season.

Two players brought especially by the manager to fit his style.

That was the main point I was trying to make.

If Perisic does arrive I hope he is a fantastic success though.

If the Chelsea rumours are true then I am encouraged more about the potential signing because you don't get the caliber of managers like Jose and Conte being interested in you if you are not decent
 
If the Chelsea rumours are true then I am encouraged more about the potential signing because you don't get the caliber of managers like Jose and Conte being interested in you if you are not decent

Careful what you wish for. London is quite a fun city apparently.
 
Which leads us back to what I just said. A successful system wins clubs the title not individual talent. Perisic might not be world class (in my opinion neither is Mata but lets forget that one) but unlike Mata he fits Mou's system better.

Pretty much why I am for the transfer forgetting the price for a moment. It's irrelevant if he isn't as good as player x in isolation. He is probably better suited to our manager's needs.
 
I think Jose has a fairly balanced approach to the type of players he gets. Actually I would say that most of his signings are modestly successful players with big potential. Think about it a bit. Drogba, Essien, Sneijder, Ozil, Di Maria, Varane, Ferreira, Lopez, Carvalho, Lucio Willian, Zouma, Quaresma, Salah, etc. Yes, he also signs super stars too no doubt (Etoo, Zlatan, Pogba, Cesc, Costa) but he prefers to deal shrewdly in such situations. Zlatan was free and he had worked with him before. Barcelona wanted Etoo out and Zlatan Wanted to go to Barcelona so it was all perfect. Players like Schevi and Ballack were Abrahimovic's projects.

About Perisic, there are few players who fit in more into the Jose profile. Pacy, hard worker, determined, shoots, heads, scores, played in multiple leagues, tracks back, at his peak at 28, and plays for inter Milan.

I do agree with you that until confirmed, no point believing it will happen.
Firstly, Perisic is not at the level of those players.

Secondly those players were signed for the first time at a younger age: Drogba (26), Essien (22), Sneijder (25), Ozil (21), Di Maria (22), Varane (18), Ferreira 923), Willian (25), Zouma (19), Quaresma (25), and Salah (22). Mourinho wanted Carvalho but inter werent ready to meet Chelsea's demand and the forced Lucio on Mourinho which Mourinho himself admitted he was reluctant to accept but was pleasantly suprised when he started working with him. Diego Lopez was a GK returning to his former club. Carvalho was a youth product at Porto.

Mourinho is limited in coaching offensive schemes and he tends to rely on the individual brilliance of his attacking players which is why he tends to sign creative and 'auto functioning' wingers like Di Maria and Willian. He does not use his wingers for width and prefers they play narrow and the full back overlaps for width, so all the talk about Mourinho wanting a winger that hugs the line is inconsistent with his history and expressed philosophy.

Also, Mourinho admits he loves Rashford, but he is not going to play Rashford as the starting CF, which (coupled with the arrival of Griezmann) means Rashford will likely spend most of next season as a LWF with occasional minutes as CF. Buying Perisic will likely drop Rashford from the starting 11, and I doubt Mourinho will do that.

The only way I can see him use Perisic is if he believe he can convert him to LB similar to Marcelo. At Madrid (under Mourinho), while Marcelo was LB, he spent most the time in the opposition half playing like a winger, particularly against weaker opposition while his defending left much to be desired. If that is the plan, then its a big gamble, which is not worth it given the guys age.

Given that Inter needs to sell, if we are genuinely interested, one would have expected us to put in our offer earlier before other variable change things. That we havent made a formal offer to me signal our lack of genuine interest at this point. Even Icardi would be a tough sell at the rumored numbers.
 
Firstly, Perisic is not at the level of those players.

Secondly those players were signed for the first time at a younger age: Drogba (26), Essien (22), Sneijder (25), Ozil (21), Di Maria (22), Varane (18), Ferreira 923), Willian (25), Zouma (19), Quaresma (25), and Salah (22). Mourinho wanted Carvalho but inter werent ready to meet Chelsea's demand and the forced Lucio on Mourinho which Mourinho himself admitted he was reluctant to accept but was pleasantly suprised when he started working with him. Diego Lopez was a GK returning to his former club. Carvalho was a youth product at Porto.

Mourinho is limited in coaching offensive schemes and he tends to rely on the individual brilliance of his attacking players which is why he tends to sign creative and 'auto functioning' wingers like Di Maria and Willian. He does not use his wingers for width and prefers they play narrow and the full back overlaps for width, so all the talk about Mourinho wanting a winger that hugs the line is inconsistent with his history and expressed philosophy.

Also, Mourinho admits he loves Rashford, but he is not going to play Rashford as the starting CF, which (coupled with the arrival of Griezmann) means Rashford will likely spend most of next season as a LWF with occasional minutes as CF. Buying Perisic will likely drop Rashford from the starting 11, and I doubt Mourinho will do that.

The only way I can see him use Perisic is if he believe he can convert him to LB similar to Marcelo. At Madrid (under Mourinho), while Marcelo was LB, he spent most the time in the opposition half playing like a winger, particularly against weaker opposition while his defending left much to be desired. If that is the plan, then its a big gamble, which is not worth it given the guys age.

Given that Inter needs to sell, if we are genuinely interested, one would have expected us to put in our offer earlier before other variable change things. That we havent made a formal offer to me signal our lack of genuine interest at this point. Even Icardi would be a tough sell at the rumored numbers.

It was painfully obvious last season that we dont have any specialist wingers (that ship has sailed for Valencia and Young) and our wide forwards have neither provided goals nor service.

This has been further compounded by lacklustre attacking play from our wing backs.

We need specialist wingers.
 
He won't be the next Beckham, Giggs, Figo or Bale. However he is a specialist and if he can contribute like Nani and Blomqvist that will be more than enough.
Why people always have to compare? If he comes, he will have his own story.
 
I wouldn't call him average, he's better than that. But it is still a cause for worry because many wingers who flopped in the PL have done really well in Serie A. For example, Cuadrado and Saleh.

We do indeed have good reasons to be wary about chances of Serie A based wingers replicating their form in the Premier League, as outlined in this article from earlier in the season:

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/blog/tactic...erie-a-struggles-to-produce-exportable-talent

The tempo is much slower, with relatively few teams pressing high up the pitch; tactically speaking, Serie A has existed in something of vacuum in the past half-decade. There have been plenty of three-man defences and an unusual obsession with the midfield diamond at a time when the rest of Europe is comfortable with the 4-2-3-1.

Italian football has rarely embraced width, either, meaning that the occasional winger in Serie A can seem brilliant simply because teams aren't accustomed to facing these players. Compare the superb performances in Serie A by the likes of Cuadrado, Lamela, Giaccherini, Mohamed Salah and Gervinho to their Premier League displays, and the difference is quite stark.

Equally, it's been interesting to see Darmian struggle at Manchester United, particularly in the recent high-tempo game against Liverpool. In Serie A he might occasionally have faced a quick winger in a fast game -- in England, he'll have that challenge almost every week.
 
Firstly, Perisic is not at the level of those players.

Secondly those players were signed for the first time at a younger age: Drogba (26), Essien (22), Sneijder (25), Ozil (21), Di Maria (22), Varane (18), Ferreira 923), Willian (25), Zouma (19), Quaresma (25), and Salah (22).

Ferreira :eek:
 
We wouldn't need an out and out winger if we had a competent left back who could support our left hand side instead of camping in the box to avoid getting skinned by average players. Playing with defensive fullbacks and real wingers is primitive and takes a lot out of a team going forwards in the modern game.
But this is how Jose's teams work. He has one fullback for defence (darmian, rojo) and one which attacks ala valencia. In his chelsea stint, hazard did the work on the left while azpilicueta did all the defending.
 
Firstly, Perisic is not at the level of those players.

Secondly those players were signed for the first time at a younger age: Drogba (26), Essien (22), Sneijder (25), Ozil (21), Di Maria (22), Varane (18), Ferreira 923), Willian (25), Zouma (19), Quaresma (25), and Salah (22). Mourinho wanted Carvalho but inter werent ready to meet Chelsea's demand and the forced Lucio on Mourinho which Mourinho himself admitted he was reluctant to accept but was pleasantly suprised when he started working with him. Diego Lopez was a GK returning to his former club. Carvalho was a youth product at Porto.

Mourinho is limited in coaching offensive schemes and he tends to rely on the individual brilliance of his attacking players which is why he tends to sign creative and 'auto functioning' wingers like Di Maria and Willian. He does not use his wingers for width and prefers they play narrow and the full back overlaps for width, so all the talk about Mourinho wanting a winger that hugs the line is inconsistent with his history and expressed philosophy.

Also, Mourinho admits he loves Rashford, but he is not going to play Rashford as the starting CF, which (coupled with the arrival of Griezmann) means Rashford will likely spend most of next season as a LWF with occasional minutes as CF. Buying Perisic will likely drop Rashford from the starting 11, and I doubt Mourinho will do that.

The only way I can see him use Perisic is if he believe he can convert him to LB similar to Marcelo. At Madrid (under Mourinho), while Marcelo was LB, he spent most the time in the opposition half playing like a winger, particularly against weaker opposition while his defending left much to be desired. If that is the plan, then its a big gamble, which is not worth it given the guys age.

Given that Inter needs to sell, if we are genuinely interested, one would have expected us to put in our offer earlier before other variable change things. That we havent made a formal offer to me signal our lack of genuine interest at this point. Even Icardi would be a tough sell at the rumored numbers.

I didn't say Perisic is at their level. I said those guys were not super stars when Jose bought them. I was trying to explain why the idea that he mainly buys super stars is wrong. The similarity of the examples is that he has bought many players that only became super stars under him. Nothing says Perisic cannot belong to such a group. Not even his age because there are so many examples of late boomers in football. It's not as if Perisic is a newbie.

Also, the idea that Jose is limited in coaching attacking schemes is a myth. His wins, trophies and the goalscoring records of his teams totally contradicts this. What I will agree with is he hardly ever sets up his attacks to play eye catching football and he plays conservatively against the big teams. He is bigger on effectiveness and efficiency. His best teams at Portugal, England, Spain and Italy, have blown teams away. Do not be deceived by this season. If his boys had buried their chances, United would have been way up there on the goalscoring table.

I think the problem here is that people mix differences in style with ability to attack. For some, once a team is not attacking the Barcelona way, it is not properly set up to attack. So called individual brilliance can only take a team so far. If a team wins consistently by outscoring the opponent time and time again, how can it be down to mere individual brilliances especially if it is repeated at different times in different countries?

I just watched the Inter vs Bayern CL final again recently. How can anyone say the manager of that inter team is limited when it comes to setting up a team to attack? It was classic counter attacking football. Bayern had much of the possession but Inter was deadly on counters and absolutely efficient in the opposition box.

About your point on whether or not United is genuinely interested, I'll have to concur to the extent that during the transfer season, until we get official confirmations, no one is really sure. It might all be a smokescreen. A few things we know here for sure though:

-Jose is a big fan of Perisic (check out his statements about him during the last Euros)

-Perisic's advisor/agent is Jose's good friend
-Jose made an unusual trip to Zagreb earlier in the year.
-Jose is looking for a winger
-Jose likes wingers who are more of grafters than artists.
-Jose is ex inter Milan
-Some credible journalists have linked United to Perisic.
-Inter's president has claimed that United is keen on signing Perisic.

Of course, these mean little until we have an official confirmation so you have every reason to doubt United's interest in Perisic.
 
To me he's a way better option than every winger we have in the squad except Martial. That's also because I'd like to see Miki in the number #10 position next season, because I think that he flourished there in some games that he played this season. But to be fair, I think that Perisic is not the type of player that decides the games, like Hazard or Sanchez.

I think he is a very good team player, but I'm afraid he will not win us games against City, Chelsea or Liverpool alone, as big players frequently do. I can see him being a part of the bus being parked by Mourinho in these games and doing a very good job, because he has a good work rate.

I'm so disappointed we are not pushing for Sanchez, because I really believe he's a realistic target. I feel he will be available for about 50-60 million, as he's having problems will his contract, and if we sign him, I could see us pushing for the league next season.
 
If we spend £50 million on a player like Perisic then we're sending a message that we're looking to splash the cash without any consideration of value. Other teams will exploit us all summer.
 
Seems the coaches at top clubs disagree with you
Mata - Valencia, Chelsea (€27m), ManUnited (€46m)
Perisic - Sochaux, Brugge (€200k), Dortmund (€6m), Wolfsburg (€8m), Inter (€19m)

Perisic has never competed at the highest level. He hasn't played in the CL since he left Dortmund in Jan 2013 while Mata has started CL games for both Chelsea and United.

"He started CL games for United." Wow, you really got me with that argument.

You're basically holding onto that one great season Mata had at Chelsea, which was 5 years ago, because let's be honest here, he flopped at United if you want to compare the expectations from a 46 mil € transfer almost 4 years ago to what he actually delivered.

Mata's day's at highest level are over for some time now. Perisic is a better player now then he was few years ago. Trajectory with the two players is clear as daylight and completely opposite. Perisic is peaking at 28, while Mata is going downhill at the same age.

Bottom line, as long as you keep telling yourself that you don't need a Perisic, but you're OK with a Mata, or a Lingard or Martial playing on the left wing (guy is a born SS) you're not going to get very far.
 
If any sort of swap happens...I mean lets exchange one of the brightest attacking prospects in Europe for a 28 year old winger whose "quite good" at best?? Come on now.

To be fair, Martial+45m for Icardi+Perisic+Kondogbia+Murillo would be fair. Murillo and Kondogbia have been underwhelming but they are capable of a lot better and they are decent depth options.
 
To be fair, Martial+45m for Icardi+Perisic+Kondogbia+Murillo would be fair. Murillo and Kondogbia have been underwhelming but they are capable of a lot better and they are decent depth options.

:lol: I didn't realize we were talking 5 player swaps
 
"He started CL games for United." Wow, you really got me with that argument.

You're basically holding onto that one great season Mata had at Chelsea, which was 5 years ago, because let's be honest here, he flopped at United if you want to compare the expectations from a 46 mil € transfer almost 4 years ago to what he actually delivered.

Mata's day's at highest level are over for some time now. Perisic is a better player now then he was few years ago. Trajectory with the two players is clear as daylight and completely opposite. Perisic is peaking at 28, while Mata is going downhill at the same age.

Bottom line, as long as you keep telling yourself that you don't need a Perisic, but you're OK with a Mata, or a Lingard or Martial playing on the left wing (guy is a born SS) you're not going to get very far.

You like Perisic, no worries. You don't like Mata, again no worries and you are correct that winger is not his best position. However you assertion's about Mata lack of quality the last 5 years clearly do not seem fact based...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/juan-mata-statistically-premier-leagues-9297593

Now do not get me wrong, I am not claiming Mata is World Class. I do see Mata as being very good and I hope we keep him to help unlock certain teams. As for Perisic, if Jose wants him I can live with that but to be honest i would like a bit more for my money. Carry on :).
 
The notion Persic would have to be 'converted to a wing back' to work for Mourinho is laughable. In all likeness he is being targeted to do a similar job to what Goran Pandev offered his treble winning Inter team. And frankly he has all the tools.
If Mkhitaryan and even Lingard were forced to play left-back when we're chasing a result, can't see why Perišić can't, in similar circumstances, allowing someone like Martial to operate in front of him.
 
But this is how Jose's teams work. He has one fullback for defence (darmian, rojo) and one which attacks ala valencia. In his chelsea stint, hazard did the work on the left while azpilicueta did all the defending.
We don't have the luxury of a Hazard who can create something out of nothing with no support from a fullback and Perisic isn't that. If we want a functional left side going into next season we either need to invest in a solid left back or splash big cash on a World class winger (if there's even any available).

Judging by reports, i think Mourinho wants to do the former with Mendy being a possibility. Even if it means we switch to a 3 man defence or get a holding midfielder like Dier who drops into defence when on the attack i think it will be better than our current system, in which our left side has no potency going forwards. It makes us predictable.
 
If we spend £50 million on a player like Perisic then we're sending a message that we're looking to splash the cash without any consideration of value. Other teams will exploit us all summer.

Quite. Our reported valuation (£30m) seems like the max anyone should even consider paying.
 
If Mkhitaryan and even Lingard were forced to play left-back when we're chasing a result, can't see why Perišić can't, in similar circumstances, allowing someone like Martial to operate in front of him.
Yes but those were isolated situations, like when Fergie occasionally moved Giggs to LB when chasing a result. But am very sure thatt Mourinho won't be bringing in Perisic with the thought of coverting him to LB.
 
I've only ever really seen him in the odd European game and at international level and I've always thought he looked a decent enough player. I think he could do a job here alright.
 
Ok firstly, you know one international friendly is different from four games in a high-pressure international tournament don't you?

Secondly, he's hardly shown he's an "average" winger in Italy, as you put it. 10 goals and 10 assists are pretty good stats for a winger in most leagues. I feel like some people in the caf expect every winger to be a Hazard or a Neymar, but the fact is most wingers are supporting cast members; contributors rather than stars. That's what Perisic is. A solid contributor. He won't set the world alight, but if you combine that output with his pace, work-rate and physical strength, you've actually got a seriously decent player there.
I do not consider any international matches, friendly or competitive, a good barometer of quality as club level games are catching up.

Okay, It was a harsh to call him average. He is definitely a handy player to have in the squad. But as you say, he is a solid contributor not a Neymar or hazard. The problem is we already have Mkhi, Mata & Rashford who are solid contributors. We need a neymar or a hazard.
 


Inter are taking the piss with that valuation. I bet they'd have accepted an offer of 30 million euros tops from a club outside of England.

Brilliant. We should tell Real we want 200M for DDG so we can buy Neymar.
 
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