That's the one thing that is worrying me, that the players, in some warped way are trying to get Moyes out and stupidly think SAF will come back. If he did, a lot of them will be one their bikes.
It's tough going - What side of the fence are you on
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
I still want to give HIM time but change your shite back room staff they have not got a feckin clue that's HIS problem so he needs to sort it
The problem we face now is that not getting 4th means we face a very real prospect of losing the likes of Rooney. We could really do with that 4th place spot. I'm not going to boo Moyes or call for his head but do I feel we picked the right manager? No. That could change with time but how much time can we afford to give?
For me he has 8 League games to show an improvement in our style and our results. If our style doesn't improve and/or we don't take around 18+ points (including positive performances against City, Chelsea and Arsenal) then he has to go. If he fails to achieve this bring someone in for the last 10 League games (all of which are very winnable) and hopefully they save fourth.
I really want him to succeed. I was totally against his appointment from the start but had to embrace reality and put faith in Fergie and everything else. I hate that I'm constantly questioning myself and unable to decide where I stand with him. Now it's reached the point where I seriously don't think he will be able to get a grip on this decline and turn it around, at least before we are pushed into finding an alternative. You look at the last few games and it's becoming very hard to mark future fixtures as wins or points in the bag, I honestly can't think where we will end this season. With every defeat the pressure doubles on Moyes, he already looks like a broken shell of a man and we are half-way through the first season. Another window, albeit the January one without major signings - which is likely to be the case - is only going to mount more pressure on him, especially if the results continue in the same vein. I hope he's able to turn some of this around, but the way the players have played under him so far, I honestly don't know if that's even possible. I don't know how he can inspire them or whether he's going to be able to buy himself enough quality in replacements to match what we had before either. But as the season goes on more and more of the major doubts I had before his appointment are creeping back in and that's without the amazing shitstorm that has been this season so far. I definitely feel he's been massively unlucky, with the full squad he inherited we surely would have seen more results if it wasn't for a horrible run of injuries, but I don't think it excuses all. I feel so sad for him, but can't help feel like we could have so easily avoided this by simply bringing in a better manager. I get the argument over longevity and have used it myself, but without success it's kind of pointless for a manager to just stay at the club for x amount of years. Here's hoping, but with the fans, players and media I just can't see him turning this around, we really badly need a productive summer to raise spirits I feel.
You're right - unless it gets really bad, he should be given the time to make a difference.
It's tough to back a manager when you can't see what he's trying to do though. He's overseeing a terrible period and yet no one seems to be able to explain what he's trying to put in place.
Even when Rodgers took over at Liverpool, you could see clearly what he was trying to do. Moyes is relying on archaic tactics - there doesn't seem to be any hope of us changing approach to catch up with the leading sides.
He's not good enough and every United fan knows it. He's being afforded more patience than is deserved because Fergie told us it had to be this way.
We'll judging by the targets he went for and didn't get this summer he definitely deserves funds.
I was one of the ones really against his appointment. My heart sank when I heard it. I did however 'get behind' him, in my own head as much as anything. More out of hope than expectation though. One of the lads commentating today (can't remember who said it, maybe both), said 'no one expected it to be this bad'. Well, I kind of did. But didn't want to say/believe it in the hope I would be wrong. He still could turn it round and I genuinely hope he does, obviously. Something else I said at the beginning of the season was I don't want to become one of these clubs constantly changing managers, something United shouldn't be about. But if the clubs made the wrong decision in appointing him you don't really have much choice do you?
Surely the way the team would play under Moyes was discussed before offering him the job? Surely the transfer targets were discussed? Surely this had been planned for way in advance? I would also like to think United have a plan in place ready for if Moyes didn't succeed.
Anyway, my view is if things haven't improved by the end of the season we need to look elsewhere. If things begin to look up then give him more time.
Surely the way the team would play under Moyes was discussed before offering him the job? Surely the transfer targets were discussed? Surely this had been planned for way in advance? I would also like to think United have a plan in place ready for if Moyes didn't succeed.
Anyway, my view is if things haven't improved by the end of the season we need to look elsewhere. If things begin to look up then give him more time.
Now is the time to sack him. The January window has just opened and we could do without letting him spend any more money before the inevitable happens and someone else takes over.
Get a caretaker in until the summer if it comes to it and take it from there.
Get a caretaker in until the summer if it comes to it and take it from there.
The inability to sign the type of player he wanted to in the summer and a poor preseason, added to the tough opening fixtures, haven't helped him but I'm starting to think he's going to really struggle to turn it round. There was definitely an edge to the support today and as soon as he loses the terraces, you fear for him.
Pretty much agree with everything there.
As for the argument of some that he needs to rebuild this squad. There could be a lot of problems for that as well. Do we have the funds? Is our club willing to give it to Moyes? Are worldclass players going to join Manchester United under David Moyes? And what players will Moyes look at?
I can't say I really trust him on any of that after he got us Fellaini and nothing more last summer. I'm sad looking at our current state really.
Easy to say in hindsight. Once again, rationally;
Herrera would have been a bigger gamble: young, unproven in England and nobody can say whether he'd adapt to England.
Fellaini: worked with Moyes, proven in England, available.
As I said at the time, the embarrassing summer window rests almost entirely at the feet of the board, not Moyes. They conducted themselves like morons and frankly, embarrassed the United name.
On the Moyes side, that won't change very soon unless he does something idiotically stupid but yea, he's not giving many good arguments to defend him lately.
I'll support Moyes all the way down to the Conference and beyond.
Because otherwise, we're just entertainment addicts seeking another high. Not supporters.
Because otherwise, we're just entertainment addicts seeking another high. Not supporters.
We have been unlucky with a lot of things and before i go forward i'd like to say that i do hope that things turn around for him either with us or with someone else as he seem like a goos guy who is down to earth.
That said he has failed so far and saying that it's stupid for some fans to call for his head is ignorant of their passion and best wishes for the club. Thoughi don't agree with them yet i do share their fear that he might not be cut for the job.
A manager needs to:
- Manage players and staff.
Moyes got his own staff inn to help managing the players.
He still doesnt know the players and needs told who is good.
Fitness questions have been asked, but we dont know enough to put any blame on that.
- Tactics and a play-plan
He has multiple times at the start of the season taken cautious approaches. (Unexciting)
He has changed that, but still seems to make a lot of mistakes during games.
Today alone:
He puts Fletcher on RB instead of Cleverley who is faster.
He plays Welbz in the middle and Kagawa on the left.
He took out Valencia instead of Chicharito.
He was content with only Fabio as a defender on the bench.
As for a game-plan for the future i'd say it's too early to judge.
- identify his squad-weaknesses and adress them in the transfer-windows
So far he has identified the midfield as a problem, and to some degree the left back.
As far as i can gather he hasn't mentioned a backup right-back or proper wide-players.
In the transfer-window he did have he and Ed got too focused on a impossible target, and Ed admittet that lack of experience was the reason - fair play once, let's see about january. They have now had half a year to identify weaknesses and targets to adress them.
Ps. I am writing on the phone, if there is something unclear or with extremely bad grammar then please point it out.
That said he has failed so far and saying that it's stupid for some fans to call for his head is ignorant of their passion and best wishes for the club. Thoughi don't agree with them yet i do share their fear that he might not be cut for the job.
A manager needs to:
- Manage players and staff.
Moyes got his own staff inn to help managing the players.
He still doesnt know the players and needs told who is good.
Fitness questions have been asked, but we dont know enough to put any blame on that.
- Tactics and a play-plan
He has multiple times at the start of the season taken cautious approaches. (Unexciting)
He has changed that, but still seems to make a lot of mistakes during games.
Today alone:
He puts Fletcher on RB instead of Cleverley who is faster.
He plays Welbz in the middle and Kagawa on the left.
He took out Valencia instead of Chicharito.
He was content with only Fabio as a defender on the bench.
As for a game-plan for the future i'd say it's too early to judge.
- identify his squad-weaknesses and adress them in the transfer-windows
So far he has identified the midfield as a problem, and to some degree the left back.
As far as i can gather he hasn't mentioned a backup right-back or proper wide-players.
In the transfer-window he did have he and Ed got too focused on a impossible target, and Ed admittet that lack of experience was the reason - fair play once, let's see about january. They have now had half a year to identify weaknesses and targets to adress them.
Ps. I am writing on the phone, if there is something unclear or with extremely bad grammar then please point it out.
I honestly believe now, that Tuesday night is fecking massive for us.
To be honest, that's true. Around the time of Hodgson at Liverpool, or Us/ Newcastle generally, there was a lot of abuse from Man utd fans to the fans of those clubs for their fans' opinions on changing managers. Justified in my opinion. But you guys were insulated from that with Ferguson, with the reality of course being that Man utd fans are like everyone else.
If Moyes carries on like this for another month or two, I think most clubs of Man Utd's level would move him on. Ferguson's influence will ensure he stays a full season, barring a monumental collapse that sees you slide to the relegation zone or something (or where it becomes very obvious that he has lost the players).
I also completely agree about the vision. Moyes needs to do something about the football or air his vision in some way or this won't be tolerated for much longer.
Could anyone have really predicted it to be this bad? I certainly didn't, and that's the problem, it's one thing that I never wanted him here, it's another that he's now doing his best to prove me and many others correct for thinking that, but I still don't want rid, the club and SAF did this, we need to give him more time to prove us wrong, to build a squad that isn't full of deadwood and complete pussies, but feck, he's certainly making it difficult for me to stick by those laurels.
We went for Herrera 2 days before the wondow was closed with an offer below the clause. And we know how Bilbao deals with transfers.
We went for Coentrao in the last hour of the transfer window because we couldn't do the Baines deal.
Needs the chance to build his own team, which for me gives him at least another season after this. So many spoilt cnuts wanting instant success (I'm sure half the posters in this thread are scousers) ..... welcome to what supporting your team is really about.
I can't pretend to know the ins and outs of how your executives do business or whether vital people left this summer. Why did you go in so late? Was Moyes waiting for someone else? Were the executives unsure that Herrera was worth as much as Moyes wanted to pay?
Woodward said the club didn't think he was worth the clause that they wouldn't budge on and we pulled out long before the fiasco with those fake lawyers happened.
I think it is more likely that the players have seen a man out of his depth from day one. A manager is a leader and when your leader looks like he doesn't know what he is doing then confidence erodes down the chain, as a result performance suffer. To instill confidence and get maximum performance from his players is the fundamental remit for a manager in any sport.
The buck stops with the manager.
If we are honest, no, I really doubt anyone predicted it could possibly go this bad so quickly. I'm sure a lot of us would have laughed at the though of United not finishing Top 4 this season - I know I certainly did.
I predicted we'd finish second, SECOND! What a blithering idiot I am.
Guys are asking for SAF to come back, to be honest I would rather David Gill came back to handle the transfers.
Unfortunately that's exactly what many modern fans are becoming (in the top flight). They demand overnight success and fancy sounding foreign names with bigger transfer fees.
I blame video games and sky sports news
We need a quality foreign manager with a top notch philosophy of how to play the game.. lets nail Klopp before it is too late, the poor bugger has been raped to death by bayern, would probably be thankful to come here.
I said first and laughed at the thought of finishing third. I don't know if I'm just massively niave or if this has been spectacularly bad. Probably both.
I'm still with this: "I'd also like to remind you that when we had bad times here, the club stood by me, all my staff stood by me, the players stood by me. Your job now is to stand by our new manager."
Moyes wanted Fellaini and Baines, just look at his interview. He admitted (and said that he doesn't regret) that we deliberately let the clause of Fellaini to expire because he wanted a double signing (both him and Baines). After Everton refused to sell Baines, on the last few hours we tried to sign Coentrao.
He also said that we made a 23m offer for Herrera but we weren't going to use his clause (which was 30.5m pounds) because it was too expensive. That's only 3m more than what we paid for Fellaini, and Herrera is infinitely better than him. I don't know if he is so bad with Maths or he genuinely believed that Fellaini is really a great player. Or just wanted someone familiar there.
He fecked up badly on the transfer window, but the biggest responsibility is IMO to the club for letting him (and the rookie CEO) to do whatever they want. We should have done what every big club does, pick for him his assistant and give him the list of targets. Definitely not let him dismantle the coaching staff for mediocre coaches. SAF did the work of the manager, the scouts, the CEO and many other works but not everyone is capable of doing so. Especially Moyes who is zero proven.
Probably both, but really, it was impossible to predict such a massive downfall in the squad, such a lack of guile from the players, such a horrendous transfer window, and such awful luck with injuries.
Look how much I said "such" there, too much Doge.
People on here that it was absolutely ludicrous when some media-outlets suggested that we might not make top-four this season.
The Glazers would surely take action if it means a significant loss of revenue.
Fletcher was never going to succeed
Evans was never going to succeed
Giggs should've retired in 2003.
Hernandez should've been sold after his second season.
Evra was never going to succeed.
Ronaldo was a one-trick pony who dived too much and would never achieve anything.
De Gea was never going to succeed.
Phil Jones can't play in midfield.
Carrick will never be good enough for our midfield.
People don't understand progression given patience.
Evans was never going to succeed
Giggs should've retired in 2003.
Hernandez should've been sold after his second season.
Evra was never going to succeed.
Ronaldo was a one-trick pony who dived too much and would never achieve anything.
De Gea was never going to succeed.
Phil Jones can't play in midfield.
Carrick will never be good enough for our midfield.
People don't understand progression given patience.
The opposite fans predicted it, to be fair.
My heart said that we would win the title, but my head thought that we'll finish below City and possibly below Chelsea. I never would have thought that things will go this bad, although I don't rate Moyes much more than Hodgson or Redknapp.
When we appointed Moyes, PeterStorey said we'd be mid-table at the halfway mark and be looking at sacking Moyes. He wasn't WUMing.
I'll be the first to admit, it was easy for us to moralise to other fans when their clubs were being trigger happy. It's so easy to espouse the importance of sticking by your manager, giving time and not volubly dissenting at the end of games when Sir Alex is busy giving you every trophy your heart desires - I never knew another manager, so have grown up as a football fan in an unrealistic bubble.
Macheda
Gibson
Richardson
Berbatov
Anderson
Eagles
Morrison
Tunniclife
The managers we had before SAF
etc etc.
It works both ways.
You deserve what you earn. Moyes has done nothing for the club and earned nothing.
Any decision about DM's future should be cold-blooded, made solely in the interests of Manchester United. He's been given an undeserved shot at a big job, and so far has gotten everything wrong. He can have no complaints if he was fired tomorrow.
I think that's a perspective a lot of people shared who weren't biased or trying to only see the positives from his appointment.