South Africa?
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
South Africa?
Nope.
Likud + Lieberman + Bennet: 43 seats in 2013, 43 seats in 2015
Labour + Livni + Kadima: 23 in 2013, 24 yesterday.
Nothing dramatic happened las night. The only drama was generated by the leftists and their controlled media getting themselves excited because they forgot that there are wider circles of Israelis, outside the state of Tel Aviv. It's the patronizing over whole sectors in the Israeli society that loses them the elections time and again.
Spreaking of fear campaigns, we have heard a barrage of predictions of sanctions and the collapse of US-Israeli ties. Having some decency will get you a long way in providing a true alternative in the future.
@holyland red I'm not gonna bother, had enough political conversations about the same things with Israelis for the past few weeks. I think your view is totally wrong, on several issues - especially with it comes to Netanyahu's partly racist campaign (which is what I'm talking about aiming the lowest and getting a whole lot of late votes), which has gone a step too far- but it is what it is.
The right wing has clearly won it, it will form the entire government, so let's see what you're actually worth when you can't complain other parties within the coalition are tying your hands.
Unlike the previous six years, though, he's not my prime minister. There's a limit to what you can say or do and still insist afterwards that you're 'Everyone's PM'. Not anymore.
The right wing has clearly won it, it will form the entire government, so let's see what you're actually worth when you can't complain other parties within the coalition are tying your hands.
Unlike the previous six years, though, he's not my prime minister. There's a limit to what you can say or do and still insist afterwards that you're 'Everyone's PM'. Not anymore.
Democracy is ace after all. You're entitled to have your opinion and express it openly. I believe you are outraged at the racist comment referring to the right as mezuzah-kissers, or the call of the Arab chair of the election comittee for Arab citizens to go and vote. You have said before that Israel is racist, so spare me the dramatic speech.
Nothing gives me more satisfaction in times like this than pompous leftist not accepting the democratic choice of their fellow citizens. Thankfully, our international airport is still open.
Nothing gives me more satisfaction in times like this than pompous leftist not accepting the democratic choice of their fellow citizens. Thankfully, our international airport is still open.
Some of those people were and are stupid and close minded as hell. But there's a huge, huge difference between a writer or an artist saying those things to a PM doing it.
The funny thing is, I don't even consider myself to be true left, more like center. But I'm not surprised by that last comment of yours because that's the way it is with the right wing - if you're not with us, then you are against us, you are our enemy. So Star Wars that.
I accept and respect the results and the choices of the Israeli citizens. I just can't respect Netanyahu any more, the way he takes money out of the country for personal issues - small money, but it's the principal that counts - aiming so low in his campaign, living off fears and using scaremongering tactics, suddenly giving a dozen interviews a day after barely talking to Israeli media for years.
Yes, Israel is a racist country, treating Israeli-arabs as second class citizens (we've just had a demonstration) and locking up refugees without bothering to check their stories. And this time it came from the very top. Disgraceful, but he'll stop at nothing to be elected. I think he believes he's Israel's saviour, the poor man. Unfortunately, a quarter of the voters bought this.
Mind you, Turkey still votes for Erdogan.
What percentage of Israelis would you say believe this and want to change it ?
Impossible for me to say, but in a way the bigger issue is not what the average Israeli may or may not think but what the government does. It's starts at the top with a lack of sufficient funding for basics like infrastructure and education. I'm not sure it's intentional, I just don't think there has been enough interest in order to view their way of life and their cities - which are somewhat different, in part - and realize the way to make things better.
Part of the issue is that while there are Arab parties at the Knesset - the united one they had to set up ahead of the elections this time, with is another issue, got 13-14 seats out of 120 - they are never invited to be a part of the government. And that's not just a right-wing thing, the left isn't going to do that either (The Rabin government had them supporting him from outside his coalition). How can that be right in a totally democratic and equal country?
An artist. Tens of thousands cheered his divisive bile. You are special, ihave to admit. All of you. You have never been any good in accepting the democratic choice of the people. There was no Bibi in 1977 when yitshak Ben Aaron famously said that the people and not the Labour government should have been replaced. Then Sheves moaned in 1996 that "his" country was taken. You're a bunch of elitist fools.
Bibi did an excellent job in stopping illegal immigration across the Egyptian border, thanks for mentioning.
as long as Israeli Arabs vote for Hamas sympathizers there are real danger to the country. Credit to those who operate within Zionist parties. They're our best bet for full equality.
Any word about national service? Arab MPs joining the Hamas flotilla or inciting terrorism? It appears that Raoul could do with some info here.
We already know what you think. I'll get my info directly from Amir thanks.
I only read what he said, I never saw the video so I had no idea how people reacted. If that's the way it was, he was an idiot and so are they. But the PM should have far bigger responsibility.
Building the wall was good and correct, stopping more from coming. I have nothing but positive words on that. The problem is the way you treat the people who are already here. A large part of their refugee applications weren't even looked at, with the state dishing out excuses. What the point of locking 2,000 of them when there are 40,000 around? What's the point of doing that when at the same time we bring in foreign workers from several countries?
We've seen in the past that while they are surely not a big group, Jewish Israelis too have dangerous people among them, who aim to harm and even others just because they are arabs. One of them just ran for a seat in the Knesset. But we don't look at Jewish Israelis as one and think they are all the same. Why treat the Israeli arabs that way?
The funny thing is of course that it's the new law in Israel that forced the arab parties to unite, mixing up people with different views and opinions and now making them, supposedly, 'the same'. Brilliant that.
This has nothing to do with what I think. I suggested Amir offered you some info so younare barging into an open door. By all means, you are welcome to limit your discussion to people who share your views. Amir will tell you where it got the Israeli left.
I don't think you can demand people to fulfill obligations that everyone else does before you give them the same rights and treatment that everyone else gets. Heck, even a visit to the airport could be different when you're an arab here - which is something I can actually understand, but it's still an issue if at the same time you demand them to accept the same obligations everyone does.
As for the rest, Hanin Zuabi is an idiot, or at least very clever in getting the headlines. Heck, she even called her people to 'wipe the floor' with arab police officers because they are co operating with the state. But she is one person.
She is being re-elected time and again, together with Yasser Arafat's political advisors and a bunch of others who deny the right of the Jewish people the right for self determination in Israel. Which is against the law.
There are Arabs serving in the IDF, and thankfully the integration of Christian citizens is gaining momentum. The onus is on the government to show those who contribute that full assimilation is possible. At the same time, harsh measures should be taken with the enemies from within.
So the solution was to force all arabs, including her, into one big happy party, rather than allow people to vote for different parties if they don't like her?
Just don't forget the enemy from within the jewish people as well, who seem to have a tendency to attack Israeli arabs or palestinians in Jerusalem or in settlement areas with not many getting caught or prosecuted.
This should be the way foward regardless of the Arab parties. I don't thing the increased threshold was aimed at them anyway, as the unification of theirvparties was inevitable. Our politics is way too fragmented, and the number of parties needs to be lower, Jewish or Arab.
I agree that we have jewish enemies from within. Chuffed that Marzel is out. again!
Israel is supposedly the only democracy in the Middle East, yet 4.5 million Palestinians under its control can't vote
A state that ignores the rights of its indigenous non-Jewish people is not a democracy
Today Israeli citizens are going to vote for their next government in a country often labeled as "the only democracy in the Middle East". Ironically, they will be voting on ballot cards produced in an illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank by Palestinians, who will have no input in the political process.
In fact, approximately 4.5m Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have no say in deciding which Israeli political party will control every aspect of their lives.
The Oslo Accords in the early 90’s divided the West Bank into areas A, B and C. Area A is controlled by the Palestinian Authority (PA), Area B by both the PA and the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) and Area C solely by the IOF. In reality, control over the everyday lives of Palestinians in each of these areas is controlled by the IOF. And it is done brutally. Movement is rigidly controlled, access to resources is denied and Israeli military incursions into villages and towns are frequent. Palestinians see violent settler rampages on a daily basis, which often involve the burning of agricultural land and physical assaults on anyone who gets in their way.
In Gaza the situation is even worse. Even though they've elected their own government, Hamas, these Palestinian lives are quite literally at the whim of Israel and the political games it plays. The summer of 2014 saw over 2000 Palestinians in Gaza being massacred and much of the infrastructure flattened.
In order to qualify for building materials to rebuild their homes, Palestinians have to surrender their house coordinates to the IOF. This means that they can be targeted with precision missiles whenever the next Israel-Palestine war breaks out.
What's more, Israel has even been accused on putting Gazans on a "diet", and of controlling the exact number of calories entering the strip during the Gaza blockade that took place between 2007 and 2010.
The 1.7m Palestinians inside Israel who are enfranchised are faced with a dilemma when it comes to voting. They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Although they have citizenship, it is on a nominal basis, and there is an entire body of Israeli laws designed to discriminate against them. Their situation is one of an internally colonised people and the type of occupation they face, although subtle, is very real.
There is a vocal and historic movement among Palestinian citizens of Israel that advocates for the boycott of the elections. For many of these people, to vote is to normalise apartheid and legitimize the current regime. They see boycott as an act of solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the West Bank and Gaza.
However, some believe in changing the regime and ending the occupation from within, and this year we have seen something unprecedented: a joint Arab list. This list comprises of four main Arab political parties inside Israel. It is predicted that this joint list is likely to be the third largest slate in the Israeli Parliament. Indeed, even Netanyahu seems worried that the Arabs are taking up their right to vote, and has been using it to fearmonger Israeli Jews into voting for his party.
For the Palestinian citizens of Israel the voting debate is a serious one, and despite their differing stances both camps are adamant that Israel is not a democracy. A state that exerts its control over a people by means of a decades-old illegal occupation is not a democracy. And neither is a state that declares itself only for Jews and ignores the rights of the indigenous non-Jewish people.
Israel doesn't belong to all its citizens and those under its control. It is an ethnocratic, settler colonial state that flouts international law on a daily basis by oppressing the Palestinians in varying states of occupation. And it does so with European and American complicity. The shinning beacon of democracy in the Middle East? Far from it.
White house reaction to the Israeli election results
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wh-avoids-congratulating-bibi_890790.html
and here's Hamas:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wh-avoids-congratulating-bibi_890790.html
and here's Hamas:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Election-Live-Blog-Follow-the-latest-updates-394059
http://en.idi.org.il/media/3823043/democracy_index_2014_Eng.pdf
Despite the politically-, culturally- and historically- complex nature of the Israeli society the majority of Israeli Arabs are proud to be Israeli.
Israel- harvesting organs since 1948.
"...And we're going to give space to the formation of that coalition government and we're not going to weigh in one way or another..."
And now Obama has taken Iran and Hezbollah off the terror threat list.
Seems like Obama wants to rustle Bibi's jimmies. Wonder if that obligated veto will be so quick-coming next time the Palestinians go to the UNSC.
Seems like Obama wants to rustle Bibi's jimmies. Wonder if that obligated veto will be so quick-coming next time the Palestinians go to the UNSC.
To be honest, that should be more of a concern to the next Democratic candidate for presidency than to anyone else.
if its Hillary then Bibi has nothing to worry about.
Let's try to keep the discussion/debate here a little bit above this. It's a bit childish talking about that Bibi, and in fact the demonisation prevents a relevant discussion. Bibi may have "difference of opinions" with the Yank administration, and he isn't liked by many of his local political rivals backed by local media and intellectuals. However, the main reason he is disliked worldwide is for his stance on what's best for his people and his nation security. Now there you have a proper debate and not just with Bibi the person but with the majority of the Israeli population who gave him a vote of confidence. Unless you are still on the organ-theft bandwagon like some others here you'll have a more difficult job with the demonising practice, although this is certainly doable judging by recent campaigns.
Are Israelis better off or more secure now than before his more recent stint as PM ? Is Israel better off domestically now than before he came back as PM ?
Organ theft bandwagon? Are you condoning organ theft?
Did you ever respond ?
Why is demonising Bibi akin to buying into the 'Organ-theft bandwagon'? Its been evident that the most vehement criticisms of him have come from within Israeli society. You even had one of your compatriots on this forum being quite vocal as to both his personal distaste towards the man, and how his stance is actually detrimental to Israeli security and harmony. I'm sure his sentiments aren't exactly in the minority either.
Your rhetoric suggests that the only way Israel can sustainably defend itself is by buying into his politics of fear. I sincerely hope newer generation of Israelis no longer buy into it.
Herzog basically accused Netanyahu of making pre-election racist remarks to get votes. Says he won't join the coalition.
http://news.yahoo.com/centrist-runner-says-wont-join-israeli-coalition-075338667.html
http://news.yahoo.com/centrist-runner-says-wont-join-israeli-coalition-075338667.html
Not yet (to his comments on organ theft).
For a nation with very few allies Israel would be well-advised to oppose economic sanctions as a weapon on principle, as they could easily be on the receiving end one day.
The US is all the ally they need now, of course, but the US is changing, Israel's supporters there could become quite a minority in thirty years time, influential or not.
The US is all the ally they need now, of course, but the US is changing, Israel's supporters there could become quite a minority in thirty years time, influential or not.
The Israeli society has been exposed to unprecedented brainwashing during the election campaign. Practically all media channels (bar the Sheldon pro-Bibi paper, and the IBA) joined a cencerted effort to overthrow Netanyahu. I doubt even Amir would argue with that. Bibi may not have a charming personality, but the hatred towards him here is fueled by bitterness which only grows with each round of elections. One of the biggest dramas during trhe last elections was his wife collecting refunds for bottles collected from the PM house, and another was ice-cream expenses. Top journalism.
The majority of Israelis thinks that a peace deal can not be reached with the current Palestinian leadership. Even more think that it would be madness to take the necessary risks involved in a political solution to the conflict when the PA does not even control the territory already evacuated and Islamic nutjobs are everywhere ready to fill any political vacuum. It doesn't take fear mongering from Bibi when Israelis raise their kids in this environment.
Tons of my compatriots, and most of my friends and family dislike Bibi. Only few of them think that peace with the Palestinians is within reach in the forseeable future. They make disservice to their country when they side with Israel's political rivals to undermine their political foe. Shameful.
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So you think the best solution to achieving what currently seems like a distant prospect for peace is to maintain the status quo?
Were you also not concerned by Bibi's outlandishly racist rhetoric closer to the election? Also his commitment to sabotaging a two state solution - how does he expect a one-state solution to be sustainable without genocide or mass deportation?
Now that's a fair question. To be honest, I wish things were different but if you're not here for the internet debate only you could try and understand the viewpoint of an Israeli who supported Oslo, the Gaza disengagement and feels that withdrawing to the green line would be one mistake too many. In parts of the country it's only 9 miles from the Med Sea. Can we afford having Hamas there, or the uglier versions of its fanaticism?
The latest campaign here was one of the ugliest we've experienced. In a fragmented society like ours plenty of comments can be interpreted as racist. I don't find Bibi's any different from comments by other politicians or campaigners for various parties.
Bibi knows that a one-state fomula is not viable. He also knows, and i totally agree with the viewpoint, that we have no parner for negotiating a lasting peace agreement that will see the end to the conflict. Is he supposed to see out what is seen by most Israelis as a national suicide because Obama wants to make one final ME experiment before he goes?
Not completely accurate. This is a guy who recently came out with some one state solution rhetoric recently. He is disliked worldwide because of his actions and his attitude imo.
It's incredibly enjoyable watching h red get bent out of shape over Iran possessing nuclear weapons, all the while defending Bibi and Israel, and it's 4th strongest in the world foreign-aided army, and its huge nuclear arsenal, and its nuclear bomb testing since the 1950's, all of which the U.S. has been implicit in. Now that the U.S. wants to be implicit in someone else's nuclear arsenal, our friend Bibi, and his faithful sidekick, h red, seem to be outraged.
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There's a lot in what you say Uzz, but the stolenland thing is pretty childish, best drop that one mate.