Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

The Nazis also ran social welfare and anti-smoking campaigns. Do you also describe these things as being "something the Nazis also practiced"? You were making a clear reference to the Holocaust, and that is umambiguously a misleading and incendiary way to look at a situation that is far more nuanced.

With respect, social welfare and anti-smoking campaigns aren't really associated with the Nazis. But, organ harvesting, concentration camps, the Holocaust, Gestapo etc are all things that come to mind when you think of the Nazis. I remember visiting Sachsenhausen on a school trip in my youth, and the practices conducted their were scarring and shocking that much more by seeing the empty halls, and the metallic patient beds. We now have a government in modern day practicing (/recently practicing) the same thing, and initially lying about it, with no one being held culpable. This angers me, and on top of that the attitude of most people is ambivalent.

Now, in all honesty, I wasn't making a direct link between the Holocaust and what I posted earlier. Genuinely, I wasn't. If I wanted to draw parallels between the two, I'd mention the massacres of Gazan people in '09, '12, and '14. The crimes of the Nazi's were much more varied and depraved, of which the Holocaust was the worse. I was in no way making a link between what I posted earlier and the Holocaust.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Arab_organ_donations

and the list goes on and on...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/3-year-old-israelis-kidney-saves-palestinian-boy/

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...r-transplantation-israelis-palestinians.html#

This regurgitated blood libel about organ theft is not the fundis fault, but that of those in the West who close ranks with them on "human rights" issues. Just like CH and the wave of terroist attacks across Europe. Quite the historic acrobatics to accuse the Jews of the worst crimes and being a threat to world peace and then using the Nazi analogies against them, but there you go. This appears to be the current spirit when even Time magazine joins thew choir.

http://honestreporting.com/time-magazine-accuses-idf-of-stealing-palestinian-organs/
 
Netanyahu: If I'm elected, there will be no Palestinian state
In a definitive disavowal of his Bar-Ilan two-state speech, prime minister makes last-minute attempt to draw voters from Bennett's Habayit Hayeudi.
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Benjamin Netanyahu visiting the East Jerusalem settlement of Har Homa, March 16, 2015. / Photo by Olivier Fitoussi
By Barak Ravid
Published 17:27 16.03.15

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyhau said Monday that if he were to be reelected, a Palestinian state would not be created, in a definite disavowal of his 2009 speech, in which he had voiced support for the principle of two states for two peoples.


Netanyahu's remarks in an interview with the NRG website - which is owned by casino mogul Sheldon Adelson and tied with the settler newspaper Makor Rishon - were a last-minute attempt to pull right-wing voters away from Habayit Hayehudi.


"I think that anyone who moves to establish a Palestinian state and evacuate territory gives territory away to radical Islamist attacks against Israel," Netanyahu said. "The left has buried its head in the sand time and after time and ignores this, but we are realistic and understand."


During the interview, Netanyahu declared that if the Zionist Union were to win the elections, "it would attach itself to the international community and do their bidding," including freezing construction in West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements, and cooperate with international initiatives to return Israel's borders to the 1967 lines.


During a visit to the East Jerusalem settlement of Har Homa earlier Monday, Netanyahu warned that if he were not elected, "Hamastan B." would be established in Jerusalem. “If Tzipi [Livni] and Bougie [Isaac Herzog] form a government, Hamastan B will be established here.”

He also slammed Jewish-American businessman Danny Abraham, one of the primary financiers of the V-15 campaign to flip the Israeli government. Netanyahu did not mentioned Abraham by name, but said that the primary financier of V-15 has come to his office in the past and tried to convince him not to build in East Jerusalem.


"I said to him – have you ever been in Har Homa? He said no, and that it was a dangerous settlement. I suggested he go there and said he would make it in time, that he wouldn't be late to the meeting. They took him to the car, returned to the office, and rolled on the floor with laughter. The man was prepared to go to Sinai and couldn't believe that the car stopped after seven minutes and that he had reached his destination. These are the people telling us who needs to be in government, these are the people who think Har Homa is in Sinai."

I'll respond to your comments tomorrow, @holyland red.
 
Looks like Netanyahu and Herzog are tied with a right-wing coalition for Bibi the more likely result.
 
Bibi has unleashed his secret weapon a day before the election....

The real secret weapon was warning his voters on the day of the election today there's a big Arab-Israel turn out.

I give up on this country. It's hopeless.
 
Can he form a coalition though?

Looks far easier for him than for Herzog at the moment, assuming the two of them don't form a unity government.

Here's an excellent (but lengthy) explanation of where each party stands in relation to each other, and the likelihood of each potential coaltion scenario:


Building an Israeli coalition and why curing the common cold is easier

In the previous post I explained the mechanism of having an election in Israel and why it doesn't tell you who's going to govern. In this post I'll try to describe the minefield which will face whoever "wins" todays election.

Let's start with the possible but highly improbably scenario in which there is a clear winner. Netanyahu, say, or Herzog, finishes the elections with a list of 45 MKs from his own party, and one or two of his natural allies have another 16. Everyone troops off to visit President Rivlin (tho not before late next week as I explained), who hears recommendations from delegates representing 61 MKs or more that he task Netanyahu (or Herzog) with creating a coalition. He invites the fellow to his office, they stand before the cameras and make solemn-but-festive declarations, and all that's left to do is negotiate with the party (or two) that have the 16 MKs, and then turn to an additional list or two to join the emerging coalition. A coalition with 61 is viable, but a coalition with 70, or 78, is even better, since in a coalition of 61 all it takes is for one or two individuals to be cross and the government is in trouble. With 70, or 78, it takes 10 or 18 disgruntled folks to make trouble.

It used to work like this, from the first elections in 1949 until the 1980s, and often also later. Even in those days the haggling and horse-trading - between the natural allies, mind you - often took the entire 5 weeks allowed by law. One can haggle about high principles (how many funds will be diverted to the institutions we really care about), or lowly calculations (which ministries will we hold, and who controls the few really crucial Knesset committees).

This time it won't be that simple, however. First, because there's no party remotely close to 45 seats. Second, because there's no group of natural allies which will easily bring the large(ish) party over the 61-line at the stage of recommendations to the president. Third, because in any likely constellation, there are some potential coalition partners who detest other potential coalition partners in the same group and really-really don’t want to share power with them or even be seen in the same room with them. At times of unusually serious crises, most Israelis come together in a unity many other societies can only dream of – but the day after an election, as well as most years after the election, are not times like that.

Then there’s the small matter of recommendations vs. coalition partnerships. There is no strong correlation between a party recommending someone to the president and then joining his collation. There are parties which will recommend Herzog or Netanyahu but won’t join his coalition, and there are other parties who will recommend Herzog or Netanyahu but will join the other guy’s coalition with alacrity. (Well, alacrity after the necessary 4.5-week negotiating posturing).

I don’t see how I can fully unravel this for those of you who haven’t been practicing the art of Israeli politics for the past 50 years or if you’re not that old then at least from 6 months before conception. I’ll try, however, by describing each party and how it relates to the puzzle, or at least, how I perceive it as relating, which isn’t the same.

I’ll start from the nominal Left and move Right, since when writing in English we move from left to right. (Were I writing this blogpost in Hebrew or Arabic or Yiddish I’d do the opposite).

At the far left we’ve got the United Arab List (UAL), which itself is made up of four lists. There’s the double list of Raam-Taal, who are Islamists. (Yes, they are). Next to them are the Pan-Arab nationalists of Balad. And largest among them are the Communists; the fellow at the top of their list, Ayman Odeh, is a communist. The reason they’re universally categorized as Left, in spite of containing elements that are anything but, is that while they really don’t like the other parties of the left, they like the parties of the right even less.

A few weeks ago the UAL had the opportunity to sign an agreement with Meretz which would have improved the chances of at least one of them gaining a seat by divvying up their spare votes. This didn’t happen, reportedly because some of the Arabs refused to sign any agreement of any sort with any Zionist party, even if it be the solidly peace-camp Meretz. With principles like that, you begin to see why it’s unlikely the UAL will join anyone’s coalition. Nor is it even clear they’ll recommend Herzog to the president. What is likely, however, is that Herzog can count on their votes on his way to prove to the president that Netanyahu has fewer than 61 recommendations, so therefore Herzog should be given first shot.

I suppose there’s a small chance the UAL might split after the elections, and the Communists might in some scenario join a Herzog coalition. Lots of “if”s in that sentence, most of them unlikely, but I’m putting it out there for the intellectual fun. On the other hand, there’s also a possibility, even if not probable, that UAL will end up the third largest party and the two big ones join each other in a coalition, and Ayman Odeh will end up the Leader of the Opposition. This is an official position with various perks, and would be an interesting development.

Next comes Meretz. There are Arabs who vote Meretz and they’ve got an Arab candidate on their list, but they’re a Zionist party. They’re the only party of the old so-called “peace camp” which still puts peace negotiations high on their list of priorities. Their position in matters of coalitions is clear. They’ll recommend Herzog to the president, and they’ll be eager to participate in his coalition if he invites them. I’m not certain if they’ll veto any other potential partners. (They would veto the non-potential ones). They won’t join a Netanyahu coalition in any (currently) foreseeable scenario. (I’m not saying anything about the non-foreseeable scenarios). Should it come to Herzog trying to set up a unity coalition with Likud, Meretz would be unlikely to join. They have a long tradition of being purists, not pragmatic, and seem generally resigned to being in almost permanent opposition.

Zionist Camp. This is the current (and ephemeral) moniker of Labor, which itself is an offspring of Mapai, the legendary party of Ben Gurion when he wasn’t leading other parties. Zipi Livni brought a number of her own people with her into the ZC list, but it’s Labor nonetheless.

ZC will of course recommend Herzog to the president. Should he give Herzog the chance, there are many parties which might join, but not all of them would join together. Meretz is obvious but might well be vetoed by other parties and left out. Yair Lapid would be easy to bring in, but he’d probably be vetoed by the ultraorthodox parties. Kahlon will join any coalition. Liberman probably also, but he’d veto Meretz. Herzog has good personal relations with the leaders of the ultraorthodox parties, which means that they won’t recommend him to the president unless he’s the only show in town, but they’ll be eager to join his coalition if it’s going to happen, but they’ll veto Lapid and will be sniffy about Meretz. On the other hand, sniffy isn’t hard currency in coalition negotiations. Even vetos aren’t always.

Would Likud join a Herzog-led coalition? Who knows. They say Not. But lots of politicians say lots of things. Would they join on terms of parity, perhaps even a rotating sharing of the prime minister’s office? No idea. Probably Yes, if the alternative were to sit in the opposition, unless they decided otherwise. I apologize for being a bit vague here.

By way of demonstrating how complicated things are, imagine you’re undecided between Meretz and Labor. You prefer Meretz for their clear and non-pragmatic positions, but you want to make certain Labor will be significantly ahead of Likud, so as to make it easier for Rivlin to tap Herzog (and also easier for Kahlon to recommend Herzog). Then again, you’re fearful that if too many people like you go from Meretz to labor, Meretz might not even pass the 3.25% threshold, and the 100,000 votes it did get will be lost to the benefit of the Right. Then again, a larger Meretz but a smaller labor will mean Netanyahu gets first chance at forming the coalition, which Meretz certainly won’t be in and Labor probably not. Oy oy oy.

Read the rest here - http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.it/2015/03/building-israeli-coalition-and-why.html
 
The real secret weapon was warning his voters on the day of the election today there's a big Arab-Israel turn out.

I give up on this country. It's hopeless.

He could have done without secret weapons if it wasn't for foreign intervention trying to shape the election results, with the full backing of the most popular media outlets in the country.

This is the fifth time you've given up on this country by my count, and you're still here. Apparently, things are not that bad here after all.
 
He could have done without secret weapons if it wasn't for foreign intervention trying to shape the election results, with the full backing of the most popular media outlets in the country.

Since he's got an american backer giving away a newspaper supporting him for free, he's got absolutely no right to complain of such things.

This is the fifth time you've given up on this country by my count, and you're still here. Things are not that bad after all.

Giving up on it and having the ability to form a life doing what I love and do best elsewhere are two different things. Give me a chance to do that elsewhere, and I'm out of here.

The man disgusts me on so many levels, both personally and professionally. He rules through fear rather than hope. It's sad that so many people buy the idea we'd be dead and buried without him.

Worst yet, with our political system, the results lead us nowhere clear.
 
Since he's got an american backer giving away a newspaper supporting him for free, he's got absolutely no right to complain of such things.



Giving up on it and having the ability to form a life doing what I love and do best elsewhere are two different things. Give me a chance to do that elsewhere, and I'm out of here.

The man disgusts me on so many levels, both personally and professionally. He rules through fear rather than hope. It's sad that so many people buy the idea we'd be dead and buried without him.

Worst yet, with our political system, the results lead us nowhere clear.

I guess a US senate committee will decide how comparable the two scenarios are. Shameful intervention in Israeli politics, and shameful behaviour here as getting office being carried by state department money would have involved returning a favour in the form of compromising Israeli intersts.

The ability to "form a life" here suggest that this place is anything but hopeless. Bibi's rule of fear in your words is not half as scary as the left rule by fantasy. We have still not reached the promised land in terms of living in peace with our neighbours. You can either pay a price for living in our homeland in less than ideal circumstances or feck off to the comfort of Jewish life in Europe. It seems that we both prefer option A.
 
Since he's got an american backer giving away a newspaper supporting him for free, he's got absolutely no right to complain of such things.



Giving up on it and having the ability to form a life doing what I love and do best elsewhere are two different things. Give me a chance to do that elsewhere, and I'm out of here.

The man disgusts me on so many levels, both personally and professionally. He rules through fear rather than hope. It's sad that so many people buy the idea we'd be dead and buried without him.

Worst yet, with our political system, the results lead us nowhere clear.

On the plus side Amir, these types of race baiting right wing politicians will surely be on the wane once your nations demographics and social norms change after another few years.
 
On the plus side Amir, these types of race baiting right wing politicians will surely be on the wane once your nations demographics and social norms change after another few years.


Any stats you'd like to share with the rest of us? When are you exepcting the changing demographics to make the difference? It's quite astonishing that you keep posting this type of shite based on some opinion piece you read in the NYT. It was only a couple of days ago that you predicted Bibi's downfall. Some modesty wouldn't do any harm.
 
Any stats you'd like to share with the rest of us? When are you exepcting the changing demographics to make the difference? It's quite astonishing that you keep posting this type of shite based on some opinion piece you read in the NYT. It was only a couple of days ago that you predicted Bibi's downfall. Some modesty wouldn't do any harm.

Surely the days of securitized race baiting aren't here to stay ? At some point the population will realize Netenyahu's internal and external policies are not accomplishing anything.
 
Surely the days of securitized race baiting aren't here to stay ? At some point the population will realize Netenyahu's internal and external policies are not accomplishing anything.

We are a nation state of a "race", and leading this country is uinque in a way I do not expect you to understand. Bizzare ideas about a world government and similar idealistic crap do not apply here.

Sometimes you can't accomplish what is best for your country because you simply don't have the right partner to do business with. Many Israelis acknowledge that, and in a way the huge support Netanyahu got reflects that. We are yet to see the price the US, and unfortunately others, will pay for Obama's blindness, but Israel is not in a position to take the risks he could.
 
We are a nation state of a "race", and leading this country is uinque in a way I do not expect you to understand. Bizzare ideas about a world government and similar idealistic crap do not apply here.

Sometimes you can't accomplish what is best for your country because you simply don't have the right partner to do business with. Many Israelis acknowledge that, and in a way the huge support Netanyahu got reflects that. We are yet to see the price the US, and unfortunately others, will pay for Obama's blindness, but Israel is not in a position to take the risks he could.

What blindness is this you speak of ? Presumably his Iran policy ?
 
What blindness is this you speak of ? Presumably his Iran policy ?

Egypt, Lybia, Israel, Syria red lines, Iran. He's been nothing short of a collosal disaster. Iran will be the icing on the cake. Speaking about his new regional ally in the context of my previous post:

Iran on Israeli election: Zionist regime's political parties are all aggressors
 
Egypt, Lybia, Israel, Syria red lines, Iran. He's been nothing short of a collosal disaster. Iran will be the icing on the cake. Speaking about his new regional ally in the context of my previous post:

Iran on Israeli election: Zionist regime's political parties are all aggressors

You strike me as extremely paranoid and securitized by Likud propaganda.

What would you propose he did over each of those situations ? Would you propose going to war in each of them, including Iran, over the possibility of diplomatic solutions ?
 
You strike me as extremely paranoid and securitized by Likud propaganda.

What would you propose he did over each of those situations ? Would you propose going to war in each of them, including Iran, over the possibility of diplomatic solutions ?

Syria- no red lines should have been drawn. Barack lost credibility.
Lybia- why go to war at all?
Egypt- don't stab your regional allies in the back even if they're doomed
Israel- don't undermine a campaign against Hamas in order to promote the regional influence your terrorist-supporting allies
Iran- shoul not possess nuclear weapons, no matter what. This is definitely worth going to war for, although it's not necessary. Strengthening the sanctions would suffice.
 
Syria- no red lines should have been drawn. Barack lost credibility.
Lybia- why go to war at all?
Egypt- don't stab your regional allies in the back even if they're doomed
Israel- don't undermine a campaign against Hamas in order to promote the regional influence your terrorist-supporting allies
Iran- shoul not possess nuclear weapons, no matter what. This is definitely worth going to war for, although it's not necessary. Strengthening the sanctions would suffice.


Syria- who cares if one was drawn or not ? Its not as if not drawing one would've prevented anything that's happened.

Libya - Clearly an EU/NATO affair with the US in the background. Hardly something that will stick on the "blame Obama for everything" wall.

Egypt - Mubarak was clearly on his way out before the US pulled support. The flip side of your argument would've been estrangement from the democratically elected Mursi government, which would've clearly not been preferable. So, no dice here either.

Israel - Hard to work with someone who is settlement happy and has now exposed himself as supporting only a one state solution. And that's not counting his recent stunt of attempting to usurp US policy by going on foreign soil and appealing to the Congress of a donor state prior to his own domestic election. If this is the kind of individual we are dealing with then I have no problem with Obama (as well as other western leaders) taking a stand.

Iran - I think most would support a diplomatic deescalation and a long term agreement over sending other people's kids to die in a war, which is precisely what Obama's policy is attempting to achieve. Interfering with it will only serve to deepen US/Israeli estrangement at a time when it needs to be lessened.

-------

So there you go, all easily explained if you just cared to look at things from a difference perspective rather than the usual paranoid, existential threat mumbo jumbo of right wing Israeli politics.
 
Syria- who cares if one was drawn or not ? Its not as if not drawing one would've prevented anything that's happened.

Libya - Clearly an EU/NATO affair with the US in the background. Hardly something that will stick on the "blame Obama for everything" wall.

Egypt - Mubarak was clearly on his way out before the US pulled support. The flip side of your argument would've been estrangement from the democratically elected Mursi government, which would've clearly not been preferable. So, no dice here either.

Israel - Hard to work with someone who is settlement happy and has now exposed himself as supporting only a one state solution. And that's not counting his recent stunt of attempting to usurp US policy by going on foreign soil and appealing to the Congress of a donor state prior to his own domestic election. If this is the kind of individual we are dealing with then I have no problem with Obama (as well as other western leaders) taking a stand.

Iran - I think most would support a diplomatic deescalation and a long term agreement over sending other people's kids to die in a war, which is precisely what Obama's policy is attempting to achieve. Interfering with it will only serve to deepen US/Israeli estrangement at a time when it needs to be lessened.

-------

So there you go, all easily explained if you just cared to look at things from a difference perspective rather than the usual paranoid, existential threat mumbo jumbo of right wing Israeli politics.

Syria- Avoiding empty threats was quite important for maintiaining US influence in the region.

Egypt- As is not stabbing an Arab ally in the back. It makes the others nervous.

Israel- Bibi expressed support for a two-state solution, freezed construction in the WB and released convicted murderers in an attempt to appease your winner of the Nobel prize for peace. Too bad he was busy helping Abbas climb a tree too high for his age. Bibi ows his people to do his best to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, even if it makes Obama nervous. He should be nervous, if he wants to hide the details of his deal with Iran. I have to admit I'm not comfortable with the donor state status. I think israel should have thanked the US long ago for its financial support, and ask the US to divert the money to other nations/causes more in need of the money. Truth must be told though that it is money spent in the US, and thus creating US jobs.

Iran- Israel never sent other people's kids to die in war. If anything, we have sent ours to die to serve US interests. US-Israeli ties are excellent. They will only get better in 2 years time.
 
Israel- Bibi expressed support for a two-state solution, freezed construction in the WB and released convicted murderers in an attempt to appease your winner of the Nobel prize for peace. Too bad he was busy helping Abbas climb a tree too high for his age.

Yes, he put on a facade.
 
Can't see too many world leaders feeling delighted with more years of Nutty-Yahoo to contend with. Not even in the US, unless we get a chickenhawk like Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio in office who will go head down and ass up for the likes of Adelson and AIPAC.
 
Syria- Avoiding empty threats was quite important for maintiaining US influence in the region.

Egypt- As is not stabbing an Arab ally in the back. It makes the others nervous.

Israel- Bibi expressed support for a two-state solution, freezed construction in the WB and released convicted murderers in an attempt to appease your winner of the Nobel prize for peace. Too bad he was busy helping Abbas climb a tree too high for his age. Bibi ows his people to do his best to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, even if it makes Obama nervous. He should be nervous, if he wants to hide the details of his deal with Iran. I have to admit I'm not comfortable with the donor state status. I think israel should have thanked the US long ago for its financial support, and ask the US to divert the money to other nations/causes more in need of the money. Truth must be told though that it is money spent in the US, and thus creating US jobs.

Iran- Israel never sent other people's kids to die in war. If anything, we have sent ours to die to serve US interests. US-Israeli ties are excellent. They will only get better in 2 years time.

But clearly the existentially paranoid Likud position supports the US going to war instead of the negotiations that are taking place right now. Otherwise there would be no conflict over the US's Iran policy.
 
But clearly the existentially paranoid Likud position supports the US going to war instead of the negotiations that are taking place right now. Otherwise there would be no conflict over the US's Iran policy.

"Now we're being told that the only alternative to this bad deal is war. That's just not true. The alternative to this bad deal is a much better deal."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs.../03/full-text-netanyahus-address-to-congress/

I really don't understand to need to lie in the hope that no one knows the facts. Are you just bitter or is it that you can't make another U-turn of similar proportions to that which followed your support of the invasion to Iraq?
 
"Now we're being told that the only alternative to this bad deal is war. That's just not true. The alternative to this bad deal is a much better deal."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs.../03/full-text-netanyahus-address-to-congress/

I really don't understand to need to lie in the hope that no one knows the facts. Are you just bitter or is it that you can't make another U-turn of similar proportions to that which followed your support of the invasion to Iraq?

I think your radicalization and subsequent political estrangement here on this forum is a microcosm of Israeli political estrangement with the west under Bibi. Paranoid, securitized, and completely trapped in an ideological corner that much of the world has largely moved on from. Good luck clutching at the status quo for the next two years.
 
Netanyahu says he wants sanctions not war but you can't keep sanctions on a country forever just to stop them from developing technology you don't want them to develop. It isn't realistic in the long-term.
 
Netanyahu says he wants sanctions not war but you can't keep sanctions on a country forever just to stop them from developing technology you don't want them to develop. It isn't realistic in the long-term.

Especially if that country is willing to negotiate on the terms of why the sanctions were created in the first place. Makes the right wing Israeli position all the more nonsensical.
 
Syria- no red lines should have been drawn. Barack lost credibility.
Lybia- why go to war at all?
Egypt- don't stab your regional allies in the back even if they're doomed
Israel- don't undermine a campaign against Hamas in order to promote the regional influence your terrorist-supporting allies
Iran- shoul not possess nuclear weapons, no matter what. This is definitely worth going to war for, although it's not necessary. Strengthening the sanctions would suffice.
Completely spot on.
 
I think your radicalization and subsequent political estrangement here on this forum is a microcosm of Israeli political estrangement with the west under Bibi. Paranoid, securitized, and completely trapped in an ideological corner that much of the world has largely moved on from. Good luck clutching at the status quo for the next two years.

I support a two-state solution. Always have. Stop hiding behind slogans and personal false accusations even if it wins you some smilies from the organ-theft merchants.

There is no status quo, but you've replaced your support of GWB with liberal ignorance without stopping for a reality check somewhere on the way so I wouldn't expect you to know that. Israel and Egypt collaborate against Islamic terrorism in Gaza and Sinai. The Saudis will side with Israel on the Iran issue, even if not publically. With the mess Obama left in Iraq and the tragedy in Syria, the last thing Jordan needs is instability in the WB. Syria doesn't exist anymore. They all threatened us with the Arab Spring Obama liked so much. Hundreds of thousands victims later it appears that it brought not only dangers but also opportunities for new ME order. Neither you or your hero are good candidates for a decent prediction as for what happens next.
 
Netanyahu says he wants sanctions not war but you can't keep sanctions on a country forever just to stop them from developing technology you don't want them to develop. It isn't realistic in the long-term.

If sanctions are crippling enough they could encourage a regime change. Unfortunately, stabbing allies in the back is hardly constructive if you want to encourage Iranian reformists to take risks.

Obama pretty much blew the next two years for the US in the ME.
 
If sanctions are crippling enough they could encourage a regime change. Unfortunately, stabbing allies in the back is hardly constructive if you want to encourage Iranian reformists to take risks.

Obama pretty much blew the next two years for the US in the ME.

Like they did in Cuba ? Let's get real, the Iranian regime is here to stay and moving policy will involve negotiating with them.
 
If sanctions are crippling enough they could encourage a regime change. Unfortunately, stabbing allies in the back is hardly constructive if you want to encourage Iranian reformists to take risks.

Obama pretty much blew the next two years for the US in the ME.

People say that about sanctions but when has it ever actually happened in the past?
 
Can't see too many world leaders feeling delighted with more years of Nutty-Yahoo to contend with. Not even in the US, unless we get a chickenhawk like Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio in office who will go head down and ass up for the likes of Adelson and AIPAC.

To be honest, that was the least of our worries when we went to vote for the Knesset yesterday. Jews, Muslims, Druz and Christians.
 
People say that about sanctions but when has it ever actually happened in the past?

It's obviously hopeful, but regime changes have been forced with sanctions before. The stakes here are the highest possible, leaving very little margin for error.
 
It's obviously hopeful, but regime changes have been forced with sanctions before. The stakes here are the highest possible, leaving very little margin for error.

When have regime changes been forced with sanctions?
 
You strike me as extremely paranoid and securitized by Likud propaganda.

I don't know about holyland red, but you know what, those things work. Not just in Israel. Fear, paranoia, the whole world is out to get us and I'm the one who'll save you. It was the most pathetic campaign I've ever seen, really aiming for the lowest, offering nothing, and it won Netanyahu more than he's expected or got in the 2009 or 2013 elections.

It was what it is. Seems like survival is Israel's target for the next few years. Didn't think we were that desperate.