Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Fearless said:
There are 3 million Muslim votes up for grabs in the UK, only 280,000 Jewish ones.

Ed Milliband knows this.
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That's all Muslim people in the UK. It includes people under the voting age.

Still they are a significant block.
 
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu seeks to move Arab Jerusalemites to the Gaza Strip to reduce tensions in the occupied city, an Israeli newspaper has claimed.

According to Yedioth Ahronoth, during an emergency meeting held by Netanyahu on Wednesday evening, there was a feeling that a "new and effective security operation" should be embarked upon, "something that changes the rules of the game at once, otherwise we will enter into an Intifada". They agreed that "what doesn't succeed using force, succeeds using greater force!"

The newspaper added that the head of the Shin Bet Yoram Cohen,who supports Netanyahu's plan, has the hardline approach to the situation in Jerusalem. It said he is " strongly convinced by the effectiveness of [collective] punishments: the imposition of prison sentences and fines for parents whose children throw stones, the demolition of houses, deportation to the Gaza Strip, the collection of taxes by force."

The Israeli police headquarters, the newspaper reported, supports Cohen's position, as does the Mayor of Jerusalem Nir Barkat.

Israel's Attorney General, Yehuda Weinstein, opposed the idea of collective punishment, saying he is not convinced that the imposition of such sanctions on relatives and neighbours would be a deterrence, and it may have the reverse effect: "The escalation of hatred and the search for revenge."

During the recent war on Gaza, Weinstein supported plans to deport top Hamas leaders from the West Bank to Gaza.

Recent discussions held at the Israeli Ministry of Justice, with the participation of top experts in international law, concluded with the decision that "deportation is not possible", because such a step would put Israel in the dock at the International Criminal Court in the Hague.

Subsequently, Weinstein summoned Professor Yoram Dinstein, an expert in international law who holds right-wing views, he told the Shin Bet chief: "You should not even think about deportation."

Netanyahu asked Weinstein to respond regarding the deportation of Jerusalemites to Gaza, to which the latter replied: "Do not put pressure on me. If you force me to answer, the answer will be negative."

The newspaper said that during deliberations yesterday, Netanyahu broached the subject again and Weinstein said that "the subject is complex and thorny". Netanyahu asked: "Do you still think about it?" Weinstein replied: "Yes."

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/n...hu-tries-to-deport-arab-jerusalemites-to-gaza


Who said deportation ?
 
Sissi is your puppet and is very good for Israel, you got what you wanted from that Egyptian revolution. As long as these traitors are at the helm, Palestinians are in for a very bleak future.
 
Fearless said:
There are 3 million Muslim votes up for grabs in the UK, only 280,000 Jewish ones.

Ed Milliband knows this.
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Even that dimwit Warsi finally woke up to the Tory party's nastiness so I don't see many Muslims voting for them anyway.
 
Young people losing their lives again this week, 20 year old guy stabbed to death in Tel Aviv, young woman killed in the WB, the other week a three-months old baby in Jerusalem...random, unprovoked attacks on civilians, so pointless and barbaric.
 
Indeed, but it's a damming indictment on the ethnocentric nature of the Western media that it was only today that it got anywhere near mainstream media attention because of the Israeli deaths. When those psychotic Settlers were running over Palestinian children, with three dying in the space of a week, the youngest aged only 5 years old, nothing was said at all...
 
rotherham_red said:
Indeed, but it's a damming indictment on the ethnocentric nature of the Western media that it was only today that it got anywhere near mainstream media attention because of the Israeli deaths. When those psychotic Settlers were running over Palestinian children, with three dying in the space of a week, the youngest aged only 5 years old, nothing was said at all...
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I doubt Western media reports car accidents from the ME. How ethnocentric of it.
 
rotherham_red said:
Indeed, but it's a damming indictment on the ethnocentric nature of the Western media that it was only today that it got anywhere near mainstream media attention because of the Israeli deaths. When those psychotic Settlers were running over Palestinian children, with three dying in the space of a week, the youngest aged only 5 years old, nothing was said at all...
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I don't have this information from the Western but directly from the Israeli media. The Israelis have also extensively reported on the lynching of the Arab youth, more than any other Western media.

The recent deaths are even more shocking because the guys were murdered in cold blood, the 20 year old kid was at the train station talking on the phone to his girlfriend. The other young woman was just waiting for a bus. It's absolutely ridiculous.
 
holyland red said:
I doubt Western media reports car accidents from the ME. How ethnocentric of it.
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Can hardly call the incidents "car accidents" when there is a clear pattern and method to them, and the perpetrators are adult settlers, with the victims being Palestinian children, reflecting the cowardice of the pond life scum who carried out the actions.
If anything, they're just as much terror attacks as anything else in the region. Just like Israeli media portrayed the bus incident in Jerusalem a couple of months ago as a terror attack, or was that just an accident too?
 
rotherham_red said:
Can hardly call the incidents "car accidents" when there is a clear pattern and method to them, and the perpetrators are adult settlers, with the victims being Palestinian children, reflecting the cowardice of the pond life scum who carried out the actions.
If anything, they're just as much terror attacks as anything else in the region. Just like Israeli media portrayed the bus incident in Jerusalem a couple of months ago as a terror attack, or was that just an accident too?
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Could you cite credible sources for the methodological killing of Arabs in road accidents? Because unless Western media have broken the news, I could provide you with evidence for the exact opposite.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I don't have this information from the Western but directly from the Israeli media. The Israelis have also extensively reported on the lynching of the Arab youth, more than any other Western media.

The recent deaths are even more shocking because the guys were murdered in cold blood, the 20 year old kid was at the train station talking on the phone to his girlfriend. The other young woman was just waiting for a bus. It's absolutely ridiculous.
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Which is why I talked about the Western media. I live in the West and it was only yesterday that the recent spate of murders received headline news, and predictably only from the Israeli perspective.

I take issue with you saying these recent deaths are more shocking though, is this more or less shocking than a 5 year old child being mowed down in cold blood on her way to school? Or the 12 year old in similar circumstances? What threat did they pose to the settlers, other than a demographic one? Where is their justice? Where are the worldwide headlines and awareness?
 


The IDF encourages settlers to shoot at Arabs.

Of course in the days before youtube it would have been dismissed as lies.
 
holyland red said:
Could you cite credible sources for the methodological killing of Arabs in road accidents? Because unless Western media have broken the news, I could provide you with evidence for the exact opposite.
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How nice of you to dodge my question on the Jerusalem bus incident, please pray tell, what is the difference between that and the incidents in the occupied territories?

And to answer your question, I can do but you would only argue over the semantics of that also, so what's the point? While the innocents on both sides are being killed, you just want to argue over the semantics of the deaths of children just because they happen to be Palestinian. It kind of sums up your line of thinking to be honest, and I'm not going to demean and cheapen these losses of innocent life by doing as such. If you look at the ages of the victims and the background of the perpetrators and you don't realise a pattern developing then I don't know what more I can say....
 
Must be a group of angels then, those settlers, not using their weapons despite getting stoned, running away despite getting the IDF's blessing to shoot.

Mind you, the trouble in Yitzhar/Asira-al Kabaliya is of little relevance here. As is the 2012 footage you add the this Current Events discussion.
 
rotherham_red said:
How nice of you to dodge my question on the Jerusalem bus incident, please pray tell, what is the difference between that and the incidents in the occupied territories?

And to answer your question, I can do but you would only argue over the semantics of that also, so what's the point? While the innocents on both sides are being killed, you just want to argue over the semantics of the deaths of children just because they happen to be Palestinian. It kind of sums up your line of thinking to be honest, and I'm not going to demean and cheapen these losses of innocent life by doing as such. If you look at the ages of the victims and the background of the perpetrators and you don't realise a pattern developing then I don't know what more I can say....
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Looks like you're having a dialogue with yourself. I have no idea what incident you were refering to. I am also against the idea of using road accidents in order to incite violence is an already explosive atmosphere.

I would still appreciate info concerning the alleged pattern of killing innocent Palestinian kids. I have to admit I'd possibly disagree on the innocence of youth throwing molotov cocktails.
 
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rotherham_red said:
Which is why I talked about the Western media. I live in the West and it was only yesterday that the recent spate of murders received headline news, and predictably only from the Israeli perspective.
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Six Israelis were murdered by Arabs this last month. The Western meida is doing a pretty shitty job being biased in Israel's favour if you only heard about the latest 2 fatalities yesterday.

rotherham_red said:
I take issue with you saying these recent deaths are more shocking though, is this more or less shocking than a 5 year old child being mowed down in cold blood on her way to school? Or the 12 year old in similar circumstances? What threat did they pose to the settlers, other than a demographic one? Where is their justice? Where are the worldwide headlines and awareness?
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What circumstances? What is the source?
 
RT: What do you make out of this latest video? Have you arrested children like that yourself?

Nadav Bigelman: Unfortunately it didn’t surprise me. I can say that as a soldier who served also in Hebron as a combat soldier between 2007 until 2010, I took part several times in arrests like this. I think what people need to understand is that … soldiers look at Palestinians in the way not as at human beings. In that way they also won’t look at them as at children or teenagers… As a soldier who served…in the Occupied Territories, I can say that when you need to arrest someone, that is the order you were given, you would arrest him, you would detain him, you would handcuff him. It doesn’t matter if he is 8-years old, 25-years old, 50 or 60. The order is very clear - if you need to arrest him or detain him, then you do it. If he is 10-years old you would also do it. After a while you stop looking at people as people, you stop looking at children as children, you stop looking at teenagers as teenagers, you look at them just as at Palestinians, just as at people that can always potentially be terrorists.

RT: What made you stop and look at these children as children, not just Palestinians?

NB: One of the things that I went through is during [service in] the army I started asking questions. It took me a while, only after I got out of the army, I broke my silence, - I gave a testimony to the organization I am a part of now, Breaking the Silence. And I started to be exposed to more and more things like that. What people should understand is that children and the youth are only part of these kinds of groups. We are talking about the elderly, or women, or any kind of groups of people that the army wants to deal with, to arrest, to detain, whatever, they would do it. I started to think that maybe the problem here is much bigger and that this is the nature of the occupation, this is how controlling millions of people looks like.



RT: Do you feel any pressure from your peers, from Israeli society for coming out, for speaking out against the IDF?

NB: I am not speaking against the IDF. I was a soldier. I am representing here a group about 950 soldiers that served either in the Gaza troop or the West Bank. What we are saying is that the problem in many ways is not the army, the problem is what the army is sent to do and that is to control about 4 million people under a military regime. We have been doing it for almost 50 years.

RT: So who is responsible for this problem, for using the army in this way?

NB: There is no doubt that we are trying to show to the Israeli public and to the international community that we keep on choosing day after day to control millions of people. Once you do that, and I can say again from my own personal experience and after I had hundreds of testimonies, that this is how it works. You cannot control people without force, you cannot take people’s liberty and freedom without them resisting you and then arresting them, and then we can see images and videos just like we have seen in the last few days. This is how the occupation works; it cannot be quiet, it cannot be symbolic, it cannot be non-violent because my definition - it is a violent structure.

http://rt.com/op-edge/198596-idf-israel-palestine-children-violence/
 
Mihajlovic said:
Young people losing their lives again this week, 20 year old guy stabbed to death in Tel Aviv, young woman killed in the WB, the other week a three-months old baby in Jerusalem...random, unprovoked attacks on civilians, so pointless and barbaric.
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Barbaric yes, pointless no.

The more palestinian deaths resulting from any provoked IDF response is only good for the palestinian cause.

Therefore, escalation is critical.
 
Fearless said:
Barbaric yes, pointless no.

The more palestinian deaths resulting from any provoked IDF response is only good for the palestinian cause.

Therefore, escalation is critical.
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I meant pointless form the perspective of the victims. It's not as if the soldier was actually in combat, bullets flying around and all that, and being aware that he is in a dangerous situation and that the worst can happen to you any moment. A fatality in such an environment would be 'easier' to understand and deal with. These guys, however, were just random civilians, waiting around and chatting on their phones. That's what's so grotesque about it.

The Arab guy, on the other hand, who got shot by the policeman after he was jumping and bashing on his car, that's the sort of casualty which is self-provoked. Not that I'm saying it was right for the cop to shoot him, I'm not going into this, but at least there is some context to the incident. Any people that are throwing stones and acting aggressively and confrontational towards the military, that sort of stuff is self-inflicted. (Or Rachel Corrie vs. bulldozer, wtf was she thinking?!)

I do get your point, however, about escalation being critical from their perspective.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I meant pointless form the perspective of the victims. It's not as if the soldier was actually in combat, bullets flying around and all that, and being aware that he is in a dangerous situation and that the worst can happen to you any moment. A fatality in such an environment would be 'easier' to understand and deal with. These guys, however, were just random civilians, waiting around and chatting on their phones. That's what's so grotesque about it.

The Arab guy, on the other hand, who got shot by the policeman after he was jumping and bashing on his car, that's the sort of casualty which is self-provoked. Not that I'm saying it was right for the cop to shoot him, I'm not going into this, but at least there is some context to the incident. Any people that are throwing stones and acting aggressively and confrontational towards the military, that sort of stuff is self-inflicted. (Or Rachel Corrie vs. bulldozer, wtf was she thinking?!)

I do get your point, however, about escalation being critical from their perspective.
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Lee Rigby sadly comes to mind. Same insane agenda, different street.
 
Fearless said:
Barbaric yes, pointless no.

The more palestinian deaths resulting from any provoked IDF response is only good for the palestinian cause.

Therefore, escalation is critical.
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I'll bite and interrupt this love-in.

Why is this good for the Palestinian cause?
 
berbatrick said:
I'll bite and interrupt this love-in.

Why is this good for the Palestinian cause?
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It gets international coverage and then people come on forums like these and talk about how barbaric and evil the Israelies are.

Palestinian civilians getting killed in the crossfire is good for groups that instigate the violence.

I am honestly hoping you were being sarcastic and I took the bait.
 
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli police have arrested a paramilitary border policeman over the fatal shooting of a Palestinian teenager in the occupied West Bank in May, a spokesman said on Wednesday.

Nadim Nuwara, 17, and Muhammad Abu Thahr, 16, were killed during a May 15 demonstration in which Palestinians hurled stones at Israeli forces. Video from security cameras (from security cameras on Palestinian properties) suggested they were shot despite posing no immediate threat to the troops.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the policeman was arrested in connection with Nuwara's death, but not Abu Thahr's, because an autopsy was only carried out on Nuwara's body.

All other details of the investigation were under a gag order, he said.

https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-bord...-over-palestinian-boys-killing-114712666.html

Meanwhile ther reaction on here to the incident last May:

holyland red said:
How fitting that in a week when Arabs execute thousands of other Arabs at point blank range, a couple of Palestinian youth getting a taste of their own medicine is an "attrocity"...
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I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here. As long as the official version was a use of rubber bullets against Arab rioters I was supportive of these measures. If an investigation proves otherwise then it is a totally different story.

Having mentioned the investigation, do you reckon it's thorough and will seek the truth or is it a mere PR stunt?
 
"At the time, the IDF insisted that no live bullets were fired, and that it only used crowd dispersal methods (which in the West Bank, includes rubber bullets). Israeli military investigators even claimed that the shots may have been fired by the Palestinian side, rather than by Israeli troops. Some top Israeli officials even went as far as suggesting the video was forged or tendentiously edited."

"Responding to news of the arrest on Wednesday, B’Tselem spokesperson Sarit Michaeli told +972 that the authorities are now admitting they provided erroneous information at the time. “We demand an apology from all the politicians and reporters who slandered B’Tselem for providing information and sticking up for the truth from the start.”

"The details of the investigation are still under gag order, but according to a report in Haaretz, all the soldiers and police officers investigated at the time denied using live fire."
 
So, it does appear that the a thorough investigation is under way. Doesn't really agree with your typical accusations of indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians.

What would be a satisfactory outcome as far as you are concerned?
 
I don't really come in here too often nowadays but what's all this stuff about Israel shutting off Masjid Al Aqsa from Muslims? Would like to get HR and Fearless' side.

For everyone else, Al Aqsa is the third most important mosque for Muslims around the world. It was the direction to where Muslims prayed before being changed to Mecca 1400 years ago. Its importance is right up there with Mecca and Medina.
 
You are aware that Temple Mount is the single holiest place for Jews, and has been long before Muslims decided which side they fancied facing while praying. You might also be aware that Jews are not allowed to pray on the mountain, even though Israel controls it.

Still, Israeli authorities restrict access to the mosques when there is danger that incited shabab would throw bricks and bottles at security forces and Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall.
 
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holyland red said:
You are aware that Temple Mount is the single holiest place for Jews, and has been long before Muslims decided which side they fancied facing while praying. You might also be aware that Jews are not allowed to pray on the mountain, even though Israel controls it.

Still, Israeli authorities restrict access to the mosques when there is danger that incited shabab would throw bricks and bottles at security forces and Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall.
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Well jews should be allowed to pray.
 
holyland red said:
You are aware that Temple Mount is the single holiest place for Jews, and has been long before Muslims decided which side they fancied facing while praying. You might also be aware that Jews are not allowed to pray on the mountain, even though Israel controls it.

Still, Israeli authorities restrict access to the mosques when there is danger that incited shabab would throw bricks and bottles at security forces and Jewish worshippers at the Western Wall.
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No I wasn't aware of that. A bit shocking if true. I'll have to do some reading up.

Edit, that's why I wanted your take on it.
 
rotherham_red said:
http://falastinews.com/2014/11/17/israeli-terrorist-settlers-torture-hang-bus-driver-west-bank/

I'll just leave this here...
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Interesting, the headline screams "settlers!", "torture", etc. before going on to quietly note a Haaretz article which claims that the incident occurred in West Jerusalem, and that an autopsy shows that the cause of death was likely suicide.

This from the (admittedly partisan) Jerusalem Post: Autopsy report: Palestinian bus driver hanged self, no foul play

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Au...h-of-Palestinian-bus-driver-police-say-382032
 
2cents said:
Interesting, the headline screams "settlers!", "torture", etc. before going on to quietly note a Haaretz article which claims that the incident occurred in West Jerusalem, and that an autopsy shows that the cause of death was likely suicide.

This from the (admittedly partisan) Jerusalem Post: Autopsy report: Palestinian bus driver hanged self, no foul play

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Au...h-of-Palestinian-bus-driver-police-say-382032
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And those bruises just miraculously appeared on his abdomen and face? Give over, lad...
 
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