Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Hehe....civilian deaths were off course happening, as were those of militants. Still, we got staggeringly "accurate" figures in real time about the proportions of civilian casualties. Talk about unfounded speculation. The same media outlets fed their audiences willfully with Hamas propaganda, not caring one bit for that integrity you mentioned in your previous post.


The people of Israel in Israel did not take anyone's land. The images from the Jerusalem massacre today are no different to those of the 1929 Hebron massacre, before annexation, land theft, Israeli government policies or any of the other shite you've been spoon fed. Google it if you share Kaos' allergy to Israeli sources. Even the incitement is the same...the Jews attack the sacred Jerusalem mosques.

Those figures largely came from estimates by aid organisations such as the Red Cross and the UN, not 'Hamas-propaganda'. Once again, this notion that the media is biased against Israel is ridiculous. Also, using 'Protective Edge' as a justification for how Israeli actions are misinterpreted by the media is mind-boggling.

From your second paragraph, your initial statement isn't true. The size of Palestinian territory has reduced dramatically in the last 50 years. In 1967 Israel controlled 78% of the land, in 1995 87% and in 2006 90% with Gaza and the West Bank being occupied territories since the 1990s. So yes, modern Israelis have taken Palestinian land and the sovereignty they used to hold over that land. Whilst obviously nothing condones violence like what we saw in Jerusalem, i's incredibly naive to think that there would be anywhere near as much Palestinian antipathy towards Israel if that history of oppression wasn't there. Similarities between one single modern atrocity and one in 1929 doesn't prove anything.

@Fearless - off the top of my head, the reason the partition agreement was turned down was because it proposed giving a Jewish population who owned 8% of the land sovereignty over 55% of the land. I wouldn't have taken that deal either.
 
Some media outlets just don't want to know



Are you saying that the reporter asked him to take a picture of a dead body off the TV because of bias? It's pretty standard practice in this country to not show close up pictures of corpses on a morning news programme.
 
Israel's PM vowed a "heavy" response and has already ordered the destruction of the homes of the attackers.

Since when is destroying homes suitable justice? It's fecking stupid, collective punishment designed to flare up tensions even more.
 
Those figures largely came from estimates by aid organisations such as the Red Cross and the UN, not 'Hamas-propaganda'. Once again, this notion that the media is biased against Israel is ridiculous. Also, using 'Protective Edge' as a justification for how Israeli actions are misinterpreted by the media is mind-boggling.

From your second paragraph, your initial statement isn't true. The size of Palestinian territory has reduced dramatically in the last 50 years. In 1967 Israel controlled 78% of the land, in 1995 87% and in 2006 90% with Gaza and the West Bank being occupied territories since the 1990s. So yes, modern Israelis have taken Palestinian land and the sovereignty they used to hold over that land. Whilst obviously nothing condones violence like what we saw in Jerusalem, i's incredibly naive to think that there would be anywhere near as much Palestinian antipathy towards Israel if that history of oppression wasn't there. Similarities between one single modern atrocity and one in 1929 doesn't prove anything.

@Fearless - off the top of my head, the reason the partition agreement was turned down was because it proposed giving a Jewish population who owned 8% of the land sovereignty over 55% of the land. I wouldn't have taken that deal either.

The distortions in those Gaza figures have been well documented, and cited here, no matter what the "UN" or other "aid" organizations in Gaza fed world media last summer.

Israel has never controlled most of the territory previously known as Mandatory Palestine. The vast majority of the territory is East of the river Jordan, currently controlled by the fictitious entity that the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is. There was not a single Israeli in the WB and Gaza, and not a single Arab or Western moralist campaigning for a Palestinian national home in those territories. It's always been about something else, as your post suggests.

Your condemnation of today's atrocity is noted. Since you're familiar with history and figures I'm sure you are familiar with additional incidents which prove that the Arabs never needed any "oppression" as motivation for killing Jews.
 
So the stories about the images from Gaza must be false then...

Obviously mass carnage is hard to not report compared to some dude surprising an interviewer with a photo of a dead body. Can't see how the two cases are remotely related, but ok.
 
Civilian deaths were happening, the army was shelling residential areas, a lot of it was caught on film and the world saw what was happening.

Are you saying that the reporter asked him to take a picture of a dead body off the TV because of bias? It's pretty standard practice in this country to not show close up pictures of corpses on a morning news programme.

It's hotly debated here whether we have to use images of corpses in order to address world public opinion better. It's a legitimate argument. Double standards are not.
 
Some people have died horribly and point scoring is the reaction :(
 
Obviously mass carnage is hard to not report compared to some dude surprising an interviewer with a photo of a dead body. Can't see how the two cases are remotely related, but ok.

Showing dead bodies and morgues is nothing new. A victim lying on a synagogue floor is something viewers worldwide could stomach. Don't be hysterical.
 
Showing dead bodies and morgues is nothing new. A victim lying on a synagogue floor is something viewers worldwide could stomach. Don't be hysterical.

I seriously doubt its normal for a channel like BBC or most western media to show that sort of thing. You're basically fabricating a case for bias because your boy on TV couldn't pull off his propaganda stunt.
 
It's hotly debated here whether we have to use images of corpses in order to address world public opinion better. It's a legitimate argument. Double standards are not.

At what point did I say that the BBC showed 'close up pictures of dead bodies' during the Israeli strikes in Gaza? Clutching at straws once again.
 
My conclusion: The Palestinians are idiots if in 50 years they didn't realize terror against Israel doesn't work and they give the Israelis more reason to hate them, be peaceful for 20 years and they will have their own country.
 
I seriously doubt its normal for a channel like BBC or most western media to show that sort of thing. You're basically fabricating a case for bias because your boy on TV couldn't pull off his propaganda stunt.

At what point did I say that the BBC showed 'close up pictures of dead bodies' during the Israeli strikes in Gaza? Clutching at straws once again.



I'm sure you'll have time to search for more.
 
The BBC, like other mainstream news media outlets, has shown much more disturbing images than that of a man lying dead on the floor. Needless hysteria from the person in the studio, no matter what your opinion is of the wisdom in waving the photo.

Media treatment of Israel is not the topic here, so I think I'll manage to leave this at that.
 


I'm sure you'll have time to search for more.


A better example would be something vaguely analogous to what we're talking about - a case of a Palestinian interviewee attempting to surprise a presenter with a gruesome pic and being told not to display it.
 
Anyone got any thoughts on the response from the Israeli government to this being to destroy houses?
 
Anyone got any thoughts on the response from the Israeli government to this being to destroy houses?
Not really just that it's extremely depressing. Everyone knows that there should be a two state system but that's not going to happen for a very long long time.

The situation really is at rock bottom just feel very sorry for the people who live there.
 
Anyone got any thoughts on the response from the Israeli government to this being to destroy houses?

Unfortunately it seems like the recurring cycle. A group of Palestinian extremists threaten Israel; Israel respond by killing innocent civilians. Can't see an end to it for a very long time.
 
Unfortunately it seems like the recurring cycle. A group of Palestinian extremists threaten Israel; Israel respond by killing innocent civilians. Can't see an end to it for a very long time.

Which "group" is that? Which Palestinian "groups" do not "threaten Israel" in your opinion?
 
holyland red what do you think of the policy of destroying homes?
 
Which "group" is that? Which Palestinian "groups" do not "threaten Israel" in your opinion?

The vast majority of the civilian population, for one. The inability of the Israeli government to see the difference between the Palestinian people and Palestinian terrorists is a key issue here. The entire rationale of the blockade of Gaza, or at least the official government line, is that terrorists will benefit from the lifting of the blockade, but its not only the terrorists who suffer the consequences. Collective punishment for the acts of the few has been a hallmark of government policy and whichever way you paint it it has certainly contributed to the situation that exists today.
 
holyland red what do you think of the policy of destroying homes?

Whatever deters people from carrying out hate crimes is fine with me. Whether destroying terrorists' homes is effective is controversial, and needs to be analyzed. Anyway, I don't think policies need to be assessed within 24h of a massacre.
 
The vast majority of the civilian population, for one. The inability of the Israeli government to see the difference between the Palestinian people and Palestinian terrorists is a key issue here. The entire rationale of the blockade of Gaza, or at least the official government line, is that terrorists will benefit from the lifting of the blockade, but its not only the terrorists who suffer the consequences. Collective punishment for the acts of the few has been a hallmark of government policy and whichever way you paint it it has certainly contributed to the situation that exists today.

The Palestinian leadership is the democratic choice of the people there.

You know very little about key issues here. Can't blame you really. As a person who questions the Jews' right for independence in their homeland you have no interest in more than one key issue.
 
holyland red what do you think of the policy of destroying homes?

I'm not against it if it's effective, but it doesn't appear to be. The thing was halted a few years ago because it wasn't. Recently it was brought back, which certainly didn't deter the two killers yesterday.
 
Whatever deters people from carrying out hate crimes is fine with me. Whether destroying terrorists' homes is effective is controversial, and needs to be analyzed. Anyway, I don't think policies need to be assessed within 24h of a massacre.

The response needs to be assessed especially if it's a policy that helps cause problems. it's a pretty sick policy really.
 
I'm not against it if it's effective, but it doesn't appear to be. The thing was halted a few years ago because it wasn't. Recently it was brought back, which certainly didn't deter the two killers yesterday.

Not accurate. There is no comprehensive house demolition policy in effect, but instead every single case needs to be approved by the supreme court. It has only been implemented once since 2005, in the recent case of a Hamas terrorist who murdered an Israeli after being released from prison in that infamous Shalit deal.
 
Not accurate. There is no comprehensive house demolition policy in effect, but instead every single case needs to be approved by the supreme court. It has only been implemented once since 2005, in the recent case of a Hamas terrorist who murdered an Israeli after being released from prison in that infamous Shalit deal.

No, it's deranged. Punishing the families of alleged criminals. Collective punishment with no due process.

We're talking a war here. We don't have the luxury of fighting ours on other continents so that actual fact is missed by some.
 
The Palestinian leadership is the democratic choice of the people there.

You know very little about key issues here. Can't blame you really. As a person who questions the Jews' right for independence in their homeland you have no interest in more than one key issue.

The last time there were wholesale legislative elections was 8 years ago, presidential elections 9 years ago, Hamas routinely tortures and arrests dissidents and by all accounts did prior to its official election to power. All-in-all its hardly fair to claim that the system is democratically valid. You also show a distinct lack of self-awareness, it's not as if any elected Israeli governments have not 'threatened Palestine'. In fact, Israeli governments have done more than threaten Palestine, they've illegally attacked it, killed civilians and annexed territory.

I know plenty about the key issues and I'm not sure what you're accusing me off in your last sentence. No argument about Israel/Palestine based on a 3000 year old concept of a Jewish homeland is rational or valid, criticism of Zionism as a political movement isn't anti-semitic. There hadn't been a Jewish state in Israel for 1300 years prior to the 20th century so its ridiculous to argue that people whose families hadn't lived in Palestine for hundreds of years had a legitimate claim to the territory. That being said, now that there are Jewish people in the area they obviously have the same rights to life and self-determination as the Palestinians do. In the present system Israelis have those rights and more besides, whilst Palestinians don't.

Basically anyone looking at the conflict from a balanced perspective can see that both sides are at fault. The difference is scale and capability. Palestinian attacks on innocent Israelis are horrific but ultimately have little effect on the stability of the Israeli state or its population as a whole. On the other hand Israel's attacks and blockades on Palestine have crippled its ability to self-govern effectively and have plunged thousands of innocent people into homelessness and poverty. If you can't see that brutal collective punishment of all Palestinians isn't a fair way to deal with a terrorist threat then I can only conclude that your bias renders you incapable of having a reasoned discussion.
 
Not accurate. There is no comprehensive house demolition policy in effect, but instead every single case needs to be approved by the supreme court. It has only been implemented once since 2005, in the recent case of a Hamas terrorist who murdered an Israeli after being released from prison in that infamous Shalit deal.

However, in a subsequent ruling, the Supreme Court ruled that advance notice did not need to be given if it would hinder the success of the demolition, (41) a virtual green light for demolitions to go forward without the possibility of appeal for those affected. This is what happens in most cases.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...f6-11dd-bb24-1fb85fe8fa05/mde150332004en.html