No, the part where you proclaim your exasperation and flounce out of the room is definitely the crescendo.
You really want to be clever with all of your being don't you, Eboue?
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
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No, the part where you proclaim your exasperation and flounce out of the room is definitely the crescendo.
You really want to be clever with all of your being don't you, Eboue?
You and Eboue need to form a club for those who simply ignore what they don't want to hear.
I said I was taking a step back (thus the decrescendo) and now I will.
Still flouncing, I see.
I am sorry I missed your post. I was in the middle of replying to Eboue. I am sure you can sympathise.
I think that the settlements should not be an obstacle for peace if the will was there, but I guess we'll not know until a meaningful process is concluded. I think that basically we agree on what a peaceful future requires in terms of a territorial settlement, and hopefully it's still realistic to achieve.
As for the concluding question, I really don't know which new settlements you are referring to.
there are several reasons, why the israel/palestina conflict (short: IPc) gets so much attention.
1) moral disagreement: There is no disagreement about slaughtering people because of a different believe. No reasonable person will ever argue, that this is morally justified or reasonable. The whole argument about ISIS killing people would be over after one sentence. "its terrible and wrong". The IPc is a bit more complicated. 10 different people have ten different opinions about that and at least a couple of them are actually reasonable and worth talking about.
2) history/culture/values: Most european countries have a very specific history regarding jews, while there is usually nothing like that regarding syria. How much did you learn in school about syrian history how much did you learn about the history of jewish people?
3) time: the EPc exist since 60years, while the conflict in syria is just going on for a few years.
4) factual political decision: western politicians have far more contact with israel, than with syria. They have to make important decisions, which should be discussed publicly in any democracy. The only thing to discuss about in syria is, "should we intervene or not?". The USA, a country that has the capabilities to do that, actually discussed this question for quite a while. Foxnews is still beating Obama with the "you mama-jeans wearing clown are so fecking weak, nobody fears the USA anymore; please bomb someone soon" stick.
Germany gifted Israel high-tech submarines with second-strike capability. Was that right or wrong? These are important issues that have to be debated publicly in a democracy. Many western countries support both sides in some way, while the involvement in syria is very little.
5) Antisemithism. Surely a factor; especially in some countries, e.g. France. "Funny" thing is, that Islamophobia is also fairly common in many countries as well.
so Herman, your argument, that its just about antisemitism is not convincing. Try harder.
@holyland red:
Do you have doubts, that there are new settlements? do you want me to name specific new settlements since 2000? If I do that, will you answer my question?
1) moral disagreement: There is no disagreement about slaughtering people because of a different believe. No reasonable person will ever argue, that this is morally justified or reasonable. The whole argument about ISIS killing people would be over after one sentence. "its terrible and wrong". The IPc is a bit more complicated. 10 different people have ten different opinions about that and at least a couple of them are actually reasonable and worth talking about.
2) history/culture/values: Most european countries have a very specific history regarding jews, while there is usually nothing like that regarding syria. How much did you learn in school about syrian history how much did you learn about the history of jewish people?
3) time: the EPc exist since 60years, while the conflict in syria is just going on for a few years.
4) factual political decision: western politicians have far more contact with israel, than with syria. They have to make important decisions, which should be discussed publicly in any democracy. The only thing to discuss about in syria is, "should we intervene or not?". The USA, a country that has the capabilities to do that, actually discussed this question for quite a while. Foxnews is still beating Obama with the "you mama-jeans wearing clown are so fecking weak, nobody fears the USA anymore; please bomb someone soon" stick.
Germany gifted Israel high-tech submarines with second-strike capability. Was that right or wrong? These are important issues that have to be debated publicly in a democracy. Many western countries support both sides in some way, while the involvement in syria is very little.
5) Antisemithism. Surely a factor; especially in some countries, e.g. France. "Funny" thing is, that Islamophobia is also fairly common in many countries as well.
so Herman, your argument, that its just about antisemitism is not convincing. Try harder.
@holyland red:
Do you have doubts, that there are new settlements? do you want me to name specific new settlements since 2000? If I do that, will you answer my question?
2000? I think the Olmert plan is way more recent than that. I doubt there has been major construction work outside the 3 main settlement blocks since. As I said, none that would make the situation in the WB irreversible if a genuine will for a solution involving two nation states was there.
Plech is/was a great poster but even he would admit his bias on this topic.
I think #2 and #5 can be merged. As for #4, why would gifting Israel a second-strike capability has to be debated? That would be a proportionate response, surely.
This is a very strange argument. I may be wrong but wasn't there a major war in Iraq just recently? I don't really understand why you're trying to claim we have less interest in Syria when I am making a point about Assyrians? Assyrians are not just located in Syria but also in northern Iraq, namely. But I suppose you could say we have similarly insignificant interest in the Assyrians.
You are also arguing that we're more "politically involved" with Israel and Palestine. well of course, because that's where we're putting our interest.
My point is that it shouldn't be this way. The media is crap and, for the most part, covers only one thing and our politicians are crap because they mostly comment on this situation in particular after carefully gauging public opinion in order to say what will resonate with most and score points. And you lot who are so disgusted by the loss of life in Gaza are just as pathetic because you don't have the same disdain for the loss of perfectly innocent Assyrian life.
My point was to say the outrage regarding Israel and Palestine isn't about the loss of innocent lives. Your post actually further confirms this point. Look at the reasons you just gave.
So for those on the Israel-is-being-horrible side of the debate, please take your complaints out of the humanitarian arena and purely into the political one.
http://time.com/11458/israel-doubled-west-bank-settlement-construction-in-2013/
http://peacenow.org.il/eng/sites/default/files/summary-of-4-years-of-netanyahu-government.pdf
http://peacenow.org.il/eng/Netanyahu_Summary
edit: I just put you on ignore, Herman. you should do the same with me.
Obama said:
http://peacenow.org.il/eng/sites/default/files/summary-of-4-years-of-netanyahu-government.pdf
http://peacenow.org.il/eng/Netanyahu_Summary
edit: I just put you on ignore, Herman. you should do the same with me.
And there we have it.
Just as an addendum, for those like Pedromendez who think Syria and Assyrians are the same thing and are confusing the conflict in Syria with the wider persecution of Assyrians, I am not talking about dictators and rebels, I am talking about the persecution and massacre of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people due to their religious affiliation.
I suppose embarrassment was the primary factor in pedro putting me on ignore but then the same can be said for Eboue who took his ball home with him too. Perhaps that club I suggested earlier is being formed as I speak.
Just as an addendum, for those like Pedromendez who think Syria and Assyrians are the same thing and are confusing the conflict in Syria with the wider persecution of Assyrians, I am not talking about dictators and rebels, I am talking about the persecution and massacre of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people due to their religious affiliation.
I suppose embarrassment was the primary factor in pedro putting me on ignore but then the same can be said for Eboue who took his ball home with him too. Perhaps that club I suggested earlier is being formed as I speak.
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There is no distinction here between construction in major settlement blocks and that of new settlements. To the best of my knowledge, the latter is next to non-existent hence my point regarding the irreversibility of the settlement map.
Fatahs failed coup. Hamas won the election, you can't commit a coup when your the ones in power
And there we have it.
Just as an addendum, for those like Pedromendez who think Syria and Assyrians are the same thing and are confusing the conflict in Syria with the wider persecution of Assyrians, I am not talking about dictators and rebels, I am talking about the persecution and massacre of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people due to their religious affiliation.
I suppose embarrassment was the primary factor in pedro putting me on ignore but then the same can be said for Eboue who took his ball home with him too. Perhaps that club I suggested earlier is being formed as I speak.
Let's stick to the topic at hand.
you are right and I was wrong regarding completely new settlements. The only I found is from 2012 and I am not sure if the data is actually correct. So I´ll give you that. I dont think that it makes a big difference. The .pdf, that i linked says
And there we have it.
Just as an addendum, for those like Pedromendez who think Syria and Assyrians are the same thing and are confusing the conflict in Syria with the wider persecution of Assyrians, I am not talking about dictators and rebels, I am talking about the persecution and massacre of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people due to their religious affiliation.
I suppose embarrassment was the primary factor in pedro putting me on ignore but then the same can be said for Eboue who took his ball home with him too. Perhaps that club I suggested earlier is being formed as I speak.
I suggest you go and read the syrian thread again. Infact you will find that people condemning israel here were also condemning the actions of rebels aka terrorists regarding the christians and you will also find a certain israeli supporting the same terrorists along with a few others who are defending israel in this thread.
Reading through a section of that thread (I simply don't have the time or patience to read the entire thing) I can only find a discussion concerning who is to blame for the persecution of Christians in Arab states, the west or the Muslims who are actually killing them. Being familiar with Islam's history and how what everybody calls the more "extreme" factions are more in line with the teachings of Muhammad and "the rightly guided caliphs" in their conditions for Christians and Jews to live "peacefully" under Islamic rule, I'd say the Muslims who are killing them!
Islamic persecution of Christians is at an all-time high and yet the world is almost silent.
Europe mourns the stupidity and sacrifice of 100 years ago...
Efrat and Ariel are prime examples of long-existing settlements in two of the three blocks I mentioned.
Efrat and Ariel are prime examples of long-existing settlements in two of the three blocks I mentioned.
That's what I think is the main reasoning why the Israel-Palestine conflict gets a lot of coverage, that which also led to Europe and the US being complicit in the atrocities commited by Israel.
settlement blocks are highly problematic and when they grow they become - quite literately - bigger problems. My acceptance for these blocks comes from the fact, that it will be impossible to dismantle/leave them not from an actual right of israel to settle in this land. Dont fool yourself. Big parts of these blocks are in areas deep in the westbank far beyond the greenline. Adding new settlers to them, which also means that they grow in size, is exactly what I am talking about the whole time: create fait accompli. There is no legitimation for that other than israel having bigger guns. The Israeli government knows exactly that these settlements are irreversible.
E-1/Maale Adumim cuts palestina already in a north/south part. A non cohesive Palestina will never bring peace, so why add to this block?
Ariel creates a headland 20 kilometre into the westbank, cutting off Salfit to the north. Efrat is in a similar position just in the south.
If you look at a map its obvious, that these settlements are the deliberate attempt to separate palestina in smaller parts, which automatically leads to expulsion of palestinians, that live in parts, that get "cut off". Every new settler - before reaching an peaceful agreement - is wrong. If the new settler were just settling at the boarder, I could somehow understand this. Settling in the middle of the westbank, reveals the true intention of settlers and the politicians, who support these settlements: a de-facto one state solution, where Palestinians get marginalized.
LINK to a Map
takes a moment to load this map but its absolutely worse taking a look. Anyone who doesnt know any details about this conflict and is interested should take 5 minutes and study this map. If you are a Palestinian from the north, who wants to visit his friends in the south, well, you are fecked. Good luck at the checkpoints.
How about travelling form Northern to Southern Israel? I mean, the safe passage from the WB to GS cuts Israel in two, doesn't it? Is that a deliberate attempt to cut Israel in two, because Israel agreed to having it. It's all about a genuine will to reach a peaceful agreement. The relatively minor issues you're mentioning, just like the insistance on the "right of return" or not recognizing a Jewish Israel (these could be used interchangeably) suggest that it still isn't there.
I'm not even getting into the disputed legitimacy of the settlements. That's irrelavant when we are discussing land swaps which include handing to the Palestinians territories which are recognized internationally as being part of Israel.
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Israeli democracy in action.
You can be sure Israel will have control of that road, they decide when itsbopen and to how many
One thing I can be sure is that no matter how easily obstacles for peace could be cleared there'll always be the nutjob trying to convince everyone that this wouldn't work. The RedCafe version of that nutjob is you, Mozza.
And they hate you for it.
The one thing I've learned is that the more Israel does right, the more the world hates it. I swear, if Israel invented a cure for all cancers (and it probably will) then the UN would condemn it.
It's like living in some bizarre inverted universe.
The nicest thing about it is that it would probably be an Israeli Arab scientist.
Spot on.
Meh. Israel have had use of the media for over 50 years. Now the internet has changed all that especially social media. The mainstream media can no longer ignore the Palestinian peoples story. They were silent for too long. The media must be allowed put their case forward.
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He's the one I was referring to. He'll beat apartheid to win the Nobel prize. I truly hope the haters boycott his findings
Especially as he was ethnically cleansed. Oh wait a minute.
hehe
Gotcha!
This is how kids blown up on a beach used to be reported by the international media.
Now the world has to show the footage of them being murdered due to social media. Isnt it great that we can finally have both side of the story?
Even loonys Israel politicians like Mr Bennett can't ban camera phones.
Meanwhile in the Israeli media:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...dio-advert-listing-names-children-killed-gaza
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Would Jewish Israeli scientists have experienced the same harassment he describes? I suspect not.
Similarly, would any other Arab Christian have been as successful at calling the dogs off, or only someone that Israel can use as a pawn in their international PR battle?
EDIT: Also this:
You must be so proud...