Since it's such a simplistic and inaccurate way to look at the situation, it doesn't merit a serious response.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
Since it's such a simplistic and inaccurate way to look at the situation, it doesn't merit a serious response.
They also need to stop insisting that the US mediate the peace talks. The US aren't neutral. Also they need to stop the settlements.
I have never heard these chants in any Israeli university, but I did hear about the Faculty of Law clinic in the Haifa University giving free legal advice to imprisoned Palestinian murderers appealing in Israeli courts.
Ever heard of this?
http://israel-academia-monitor.com/...EBSESSIONSID=2f1e60fd5b40777a3a818ef327f87dd7
Yet hundreds of civilian lives are a fair cost?
Rantisi went soon after Yassin. They will not stay underground forever. Not all of them.
Isn't that the whole point of international legislation around war crimes? In any armed conflict a priority will be to preserve the lives of your own soldiers/citizens but if this strategy comes at the expense of a disproportionate risk to civilians on the opposing side, you then have to rethink that strategy.
To the outside world looking in, it looks as though Israel is placing a ludicrously inflated value on Israeli lives, compared to the Palestinian civilians. Armed conflict a horrible thing, which should only ever be entered into as a last resort, in the knowledge that you will put your own armed forces in harms way. If the only way they can avoid killing hundreds and hundreds of innocent men, woman and children is by losing soldiers in combat then they have to take that on the chin.
I'd love to see the country that doesn't hold the lives of its own people higher than the ones of another state. I'd really love to see that.
See Pogue's post above.
I'm not sure international legislation took terrorists group who don't care if its own people die into consideration. It would all nice and dandy if we could legislate war and all. All types of war. Unfortunately it's not that simple. Not when we're talking about DANGEROUS (people like to forget that) rockets being fired on Israeli civilians on a daily basis.
Nobody does. But everyone accepts that entering the armed forces means you have a considerably higher risk of being killed in conflict than you do if you're a civilian. Unless you're Palestinian, evidently.
Thousands of Gazan worked in Israel, Israelis shopped in Gaza, Gazans were and still are treated in Israeli hospitals. It's a bit more complicated than that.
Wow. I didn't know about the Child Prisoners, that's very troubling.
Maybe Israel should bomb itself. Level things up.
Yes, most of our governments would staunchly support Israel. Doesn't matter who's holding power in Ottawa. I'd wager it's the old "they're a democracy" line that the US uses. Plus we are generally cozy with the American angle on foreign policy, the one outlier being our refusal to join the second war on Iraq.
Do you have anything constructive to add at all?
No, it wasn't. There was nothing to retaliate. Neither there were during the Jaffa riots in 1921. No oppression back then too.
Fair point.
But surely the onus is on Israel to take the moral high-ground here? Why stoop to their level?
I know it's a terrible situation Israel finds itself in and I'm sure the black and white view we're being fed by most of our media here misses a lot of the complexities behind all of this. I also fully understand why posters like you and @holyland red must be feeling incredibly defensive in this thread. It's just so hard for anyone watching what is happening to understand why this military campaign is so utterly reckless when it comes to civilian casualties in Palestine yet so reticent about putting their own armed forces in harms way. I guess this is because it's compulsory? With a voluntary military, we can accept casualties on the basis that they knew what they signed up for. Is that why the Israeli populace are so reluctant to allow their soldiers take on risky operations?
Maybe so, and infuriatingly so, as that's quite undemocratic, but I've never seen the global criticism on this scale. Even Washington thinks some restraint should be shown.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/...ssues-rare-criticism-of-israeli-military.html
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths - This one? No it doesn't.
It's fair to say that is rather unprecedented. When lenity and cruelty play for a kingdom, the gentler gamester is the soonest winner.
The Arabs thought they were retaliating something though didn't they.
Regardless, you are missing my point. I'm saying oppression usually results in violence. Not that all violence is caused by oppression.
No drone strikes in 1921 either, dude.
At the same time they are resupplying Israel with ammunition.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/us-firm-condemnation-shelling-un-school-gaza
How can there ever be real serious talk about peace with the mediators are supporting Israel so much?
Would you expect your people to negotiate in such circumstances? Whatever the rights or wrongs of the US support for Israel depending on your views it ridiculous to expect the Palestinians representatives to trust the US.
I'd love to know what we can do in order not to stoop to their levels. They are hiding behind or between their civilians, firing rockets. They are also creating booby traps and ambushes, waiting for the soldiers. On one hand, we have to do something, we have to go in there. On the other hand, Israel I think tends to be far softer towards its soldiers, maybe because it's a small country and not so much the compulsory thing? I can't tell.
It's already painful enough for Israelis that over 60 soldiers have died. On one hand, many believe the operation must be carried on. On the other hand, we are not willing to sacrifice hunderds more soldiers just so our operation is more surgical. Some people have already claimed in recent years, when Israeli did NOT respond many times despite the rocket fire, that soldiers here have become shielded by civilians...
It is what it is. But you can bet one thing - Hamas people know all of this. Which might be why they weren't satisfied until they kidnapped/captured a soldier (no matter how you call it). I wouldn't be shocked if NOW they'll be happy for ceasefire and talks, during which they'll demand another 1,000 of its imprisoned people.
I disagree with you on that. Netanyahu's coalition would have looked completely different if there was a serious peace deal on the table. One that guarantees a Jewish Israel co-exisiting peacefully with a neighbouring Palestine. Much as you argue that these cyclic exchanges radicalize the Palestinian society you could imagine that Israelis will take some persuading before they agree to have their eastern borderline 15 miles from Tel Aviv. After all, these cries for proportionality could resurface when Israel is attacked after giving up the majority of the WB.
And they do to a degree. But if you were sitting in a cockpit watching rockets launched at your country from a schoolyard you'd take out the launchers. International law would be on your side too.
We were discussing a scenario where Jewish presence in Israel is at the mercy of a Muslim-majority, and this argument is the best you could come up with? We'll give up our state so people may kill us, thinking they're retaliating something that never happened? What kind of conversation is this?
No greater threat to humanity than Israel, moreover they've sadistically controlled the media to dictate the narrative. Evil personified
I've said it before, the only way lasting peace can materialise is if the US backs off with its one-sided enabling. Without them vetoing everything the Israelis will no longer be able to occupy territory and kill thousands with impunity. Who knows, peace talks might then be more fruitful.
Actually, I kind of agreed with the sentiments during the Gilad Shalit debacle.
Its been tried.
This is beyond pointless now.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths - This one? No it doesn't.
We heard about a disproportionate response and a "Jenin massacre" even back in 2003 when the scoreline was more easy on the European eye. I think the backing Hizballah got in 2006, shooting Israeli cities from his own made sure Hamas adopted the tactic.
Great post.
I don't agree with the idea that Israel or any other state should be controlled by one race or religion. Why does Israel get to have a racist/religious state? Because bad things were done to them?
So in essence you don't think it should exist ?