Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[The Corinthian]

Never said I do, but one thing remains certain: the attacks on Ukraine and Israel are the symptoms of something bigger. Any wrong course of actions from the West will embolden the rotten lot on the other side to do even more.

You’re drawing the wrong parallels between Ukraine and Palestine. Ukraine is fighting an invading occupying force, just as Palestine has for 75 years. Ukraine and Israel (!) aren’t playing the same roles in their respective conflicts.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Then what do you honestly think is going to happen?

Here is my best guess.

I think that the armed element of Hamas has realised that what has been happening over the last 15 or 20 years is ‘death by a thousand cuts’. Palestine is getting poorer and smaller. Israel is getting richer and larger.
I think they felt they needed a huge statement (like 9/11, which was also strategically illogical, but the planners all knew that). They want to draw Israel into brutal and seemingly unwinnable urban combat which drains their money and resources, to get them to commit the kind of war crimes that go hand-in-hand with urban warfare. They want the Israeli public (by which I mean voters) to grow tired of sending their sons and daughters into a meat grinder, year after year, never able to fully win because the Palestinians have nowhere else to go. And never really having anything to show for it, save scores of destroyed buildings and thousands more young jihadis created. Think how the Americans were defeated in Vietnam and Iraq, although both are imperfect comparisons. I think that’s specifically why they made this attack bigger and deadlier than any before. Netanyahu has no choice but to send the troops in, which is what Hamas knew would happen.

 

[Drainy]

They are the democratically elected goverment of Gaza. So presumably taxes, jihad sympathisers and Iran.

When is the next election?

 

[owlo]

I know a lot of Palestinians and have met them across different countries. I've met maybe 2 or 3 Gazans abroad, all in the Middle East. A few more who left when Gaza was easier to get out of. It is almost impossible to get out now and certainly to go anywhere worth going for a period of time.

I think we'll have to strongly agree to disagree about Aliyah being admirable (in the context it happens in, as opposed to an alternate reality where it was genuinely a land without a people) or that its tiny numbers, as its still tens of thousands of people every year.

The options are…

via Israel = essentially not allowed, and especially won’t be allowed now

via Egypt = a multi week process

Fair points. You're both right. And probably feeds into the actuality of the ground where they feel no option or escape from hopelessness but this terrorism. We should be allowed to drive them out and to our countries, in the same way that people were allowed to cross the border to Ukraine to drive out their civilians. And our countries should accept them as its our fault they are in this position.

I think the bolded depends on our views of immigration. I'm pretty open of immigration in general, so any relaxed immigration rule is good to me. I think that Israel should accept and take responsibility for more non Jewish refugees considering their roots, and that other countries can easily take more immigrants without forcing them into suicide boat crossings.

 

[Gehrman]

When is the next election?

They shock and horror have banned elections since they were fair and square elected

 

[africanspur]

When is the next election?

There is no next election and Hamas won't allow one either. Its also a stretch to call them the democratically elected goverment of Gaza.

They held elections well over a decade ago, across Palestine, after pressure from outside forces. Hamas won, seen by Palestinians as more likely to do something than the corrupt and pointless Fatah. As is routine across the Middle East, Fatah refused to accept this and tried to just take back power. Clashes ensued and Hamas won in Gaza but not in the West Bank. Hence they rule Gaza.

Just as with most areas of the world, they are flanked to their left by people who don't want violence and want to try other methods and people on their right, who want even more extreme methods and more regular attacks.

They are of course ultimately also a pointless organisation that is not going to better the lives of Palestinians, with a brutal ideology. The major disagreement tends to be those who basically see them as a product of Arab/Muslim barbarism (the same few posters who I've referenced on here) or those who see them as a product of the Palestinians' circumstance.

 

[Gehrman]

Here is my best guess.

I think that the armed element of Hamas has realised that what has been happening over the last 15 or 20 years is ‘death by a thousand cuts’. Palestine is getting poorer and smaller. Israel is getting richer and larger.
I think they felt they needed a huge statement (like 9/11, which was also strategically illogical, but the planners all knew that). They want to draw Israel into brutal and seemingly unwinnable urban combat which drains their money and resources, to get them to commit the kind of war crimes that go hand-in-hand with urban warfare. They want the Israeli public (by which I mean voters) to grow tired of sending their sons and daughters into a meat grinder, year after year, never able to fully win because the Palestinians have nowhere else to go. And never really having anything to show for it, save scores of destroyed buildings and thousands more young jihadis created. Think how the Americans were defeated in Vietnam and Iraq, although both are imperfect comparisons. I think that’s specifically why they made this attack bigger and deadlier than any before. Netanyahu has no choice but to send the troops in, which is what Hamas knew would happen.

So they want prolonged bloody conflict resulting in what exactly? Im asking anyone who has insight into the minds of a terrorist organisation. Are they thinking that Israel will just feck off to greener pastures? Vietnam and Iraq weren't close to home. They consider Israel their home and thats a major difference

 

[Carolina Red]

Fair points. You're both right. And probably feeds into the actuality of the ground where they feel no option or escape from hopelessness but this terrorism.

I’d like to add that it really shows to me the hollow nature of Netanyahu’s “leave so we don’t blow you up” announcement.

 

[africanspur]

Because they would rather die for the land that’s rightfully theirs rather than leave because it makes you or some other people who have no idea what the situation is on the ground more comfortable.

In fairness, while I disagree with a lot of their viewpoints, I think this is a little unfair.

They're not coming at this from a perspective of what they think is morally right but what may just end up being the best thing for them with regards to their actual day to day living.

I guess the similar recent parallel (obviously not exactly the same) is NK and Armenia/Azerbaijan. Is it fair what's happened there? No. Is it moral? No. Will anyone ultimately do anything about it? No. What did most of the ethnic Armenians end up doing? Ultimately they've left (whether by coercion or not, I don't know enough to say) because they've deemed their lives to be better if they leave, rather than continuing a fight they've likely calculated they cannot win.

Of course, a major difference is that they have a 'homeland' they can go to still etc etc.

One thing @2cents mentioned before which really resonated and I think is true is that the Palestinians (as a collective, obviously there are always different viewpoints) don't see themselves as a few million Palestinians against a few million Israelis, with no out. I think part of it is that they see themselves as a collective, whether as an Arab collective or Muslim, that will eventually come to help in some way, whenever that may be.

Now that may have been true in the past.....but is increasingly not. In fact, its further away than it probably has been at any point since the conflict began. So the ultimate question becomes....what is their out? To a decent and dignified life?

That is a question that I sadly no longer have a viable and realistic answer for.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Ben Norton is a special individual and former editor of Grayzone and now resides in Beijing, where he believes "The Chinese government is not authoritarian" and it's "the most sovereign country on earth." He parrots CCP talking points as well as supporting Assad and Russia. He's an absolute nobody that you shouldn't waste your time listening to. He's a paid disinformation shill and I have no idea why his videos are allowed to be posted here.

In the words of Max Blumenthal (hardly a right wing icon)

Max is also an absolute crank and moron.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[2cents]

I’ve seen this point made a lot. But I don’t think you can say that something isn’t strategic if you don’t know what their strategy is. From an outside perspective it seems illogical, like poking a bear, I appreciate that. But do you think the people who planned this genuinely didn’t think through the obvious response by Israel, and accept those consequences as part of their overall strategy?

My initial understanding of this operation is that it’s primarily a response to the process of normalization of Israeli relations in the region. The Israeli right has marketed normalization as a vindication of Jabotinsky’s Iron Wall strategy whereby only overwhelming Israeli strength, not concessions, can achieve acceptance in the region. In one morning Hamas appear to have shattered the illusion of that strength in an unprecedented fashion. Israel has experienced surprise attacks and defeats on several occasions, but never on the streets of Israeli towns like this. Whatever happens next, the footage and images of Hamas fighters overrunning border checkpoints and moving throughout the southern region seemingly uncontested will be seen and last long in the minds of everyone in the region. Hamas and their allies will be counting on those images to give heart to those others who were in danger of perhaps begrudgingly coming to terms with Israel, to persuade them that Israel is a paper tiger that can and must continue to be confronted militarily.

Obviously this could still represent a miscalculation though. Arabs have underestimated Israeli responses and capacity to fight in the past, and the popular dismissal of Israeli fighters as cowardly Zionist “gangs” has at times led them to misinterpret exactly what they’re dealing with. And there seem to be good reasons to believe that the process of normalization is not entirely hostage to the ebb and flow of events in Palestine/Israel (without knowing the details of the Biden admin’s push for a Saudi deal).

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Exactly. I was scanning the news outlets last night to find one with an unbiased coverage and I couldn't find a single one. Not a word all the years when Palestinians were treated like animals. It's sad that it came down to this and like he said it was allowed to happen because Israel was not held accountable for their actions and failing to honor their end of the bargain. The outcome now is a loss of innocent lives on both sides.

 

[Halftrack]

Iran is one of the biggest travesties of our time. If Bush hadn't been a coward, we'd have invaded them not Iraq and been far better off for it.

Iran itself is a direct product of earlier US interference. I don't see how the US interfering some more will solve anything.

 

[NicolaSacco]

So they want prolonged bloody conflict resulting in what exactly? Im asking anyone who has insight into the minds of a terrorist organisation. Are they thinking that Israel will just feck off to greener pastures? Vietnam and Iraq weren't close to home. They consider Israel their home and thats a major difference

Resulting in a govt in Israel that feels forced to withdraw troops, (or is voted out in favour of one that will) and agree to a peace deal. This is Terrorism 101 isn’t it? Make it so the losses the other side experiences are so bad that they are forced to the negotiating table.

 

[Gehrman]

Resulting in a govt in Israel that feels forced to withdraw troops, (or is voted out in favour of one that will) and agree to a peace deal. This is Terrorism 101 isn’t it? Make it so the losses the other side experiences are so bad that they are forced to the negotiating table.

Most likely the complete opposite is going to happen. The vastly superior military power has now declared war.

 

[Raoul]

I can understand that mindset only from the people in Gaza and the West Bank being crushed because everything else has failed. I don't get it from a lot of people in the last day on social media with locations showing they're in Britain or America cheering it on as Hamas's actions are a successful revolution when as you say the likelihood is Netanyahu will now wipe the Palestinians off the map once and for all.

That won't of course happen, but it will give him unprecedented support to go into Gaza and dismantle Hamas once and for all. The leaders of Hamas (who only care about themselves) will be mostly safe in deep bunkers while the rest of Gaza residents who don't have such luxuries will bear the brunt of the Israeli ground invasion, lack of food/electricity/medicine etc. By the time the Israelis get to the Hamas leadership, there could be tens of thousands dead or injured.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Iran is one of the biggest travesties of our time. If Bush hadn't been a coward, we'd have invaded them not Iraq and been far better off for it.

Good lord.

 

[owlo]

I’d like to add that it really shows to me the hollow nature of Netanyahu’s “leave so we don’t blow you up” announcement.

That scumbag is about to murder a lot of people without blinking an eye. His comments are just for PR and to keep him in power. (I do think the 'get out' was in regards to roof knocks though, not 'get out of the territory)
.

My initial understanding of this operation is that it’s primarily a response to the process of normalization of Israeli relations in the region. The Israeli right has marketed normalization as a vindication of Jabotinsky’s Iron Wall strategy whereby only overwhelming Israeli strength, not concessions, can achieve acceptance in the region. In one morning Hamas appear to have shattered the illusion of that strength in an unprecedented fashion. Israel has experienced surprise attacks and defeats on several occasions, but never on the streets of Israeli towns like this. Whatever happens next, the footage and images of Hamas fighters overrunning border checkpoints and moving throughout the southern region seemingly uncontested will be seen and last long in the minds of everyone in the region. Hamas and their allies will be counting on those images to give heart to those others who were in danger of perhaps begrudgingly coming to terms with Israel, to persuade them that Israel is a paper tiger that can and must continue to be confronted militarily.

Obviously this could still represent a miscalculation though. Arabs have underestimated Israeli responses and capacity to fight in the past, and the popular dismissal of Israeli fighters as cowardly Zionist “gangs” has at times led them to misinterpret exactly what they’re dealing with. And there seem to be good reasons to believe that the process of normalization is not entirely hostage to the ebb and flow of events in Palestine/Israel (without knowing the details of the Biden admin’s push for a Saudi deal).

The iron wall doctrine has been incredibly successful. It had a wee dip between 1970 and 1977, but is essentially what has allowed Israel to exist and survive. They've been parroting a maximalist form of it ever since. I disagree that they've shattered any illusions; it's always been a struggle of conflict, and ever since likud/begin began redefining terrorism, this would have been a wet dream for them. It's a full circle from the freedom fighter orientation of Jacotinskys latter years. (Ps. I believe he said that Jews would be generous and kind, and respect both their property and rights within this framework of dominance and lack of hope. I enjoyed the Khalidi book from the Palestinian perspective of struggle for statehood.)

 

[africanspur]

It's the nature of the beast, most of the big US media corporations have Jewish leaders (Disney, Warner etc) or have Jewish people on the the board. There's no chance the plight of the Palestinians would ever be allowed to have a fair viewing there.

People like Ari Emmanuel run one of the largest talent agencies and are pro-Israel, going against the line is a sure fire way to get blacklisted.

Could you please not make comments like this?

 

[Eugenius]

It's the nature of the beast, most of the big US media corporations have Jewish leaders (Disney, Warner etc) or have Jewish people on the the board. There's no chance the plight of the Palestinians would ever be allowed to have a fair viewing there.

People like Ari Emmanuel run one of the largest talent agencies and are pro-Israel, going against the line is a sure fire way to get blacklisted.

Without delving into the Jewish controlled media trope, being Jewish doesn't mean someone is a supporter of current Israeli government policy.

 

[Carolina Red]

A very fair bit of the pro-Israel lobby in the US comes from the evangelical Christian right

 

[Carolina Red]

Why else is the news coverage in the US so pro Israel

See my post above.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[Raoul]

A very fair bit of the pro-Israel lobby in the US comes from the evangelical Christian right

True. And in fact, most of US support for Israel is undergirded by evangelicals.

 

[Drainy]

Why not? Only a fool would believe powerful people don't use their influence.

Does AIPAC likewise not have strong political influence?

Why else is the news coverage in the US so pro Israel, and why are politicians so pro Israel despite having very few direct links to Israel?



No but you can assume the majority of Jewish people are pro Israel, for obvious reasons.

Yikes

 

[africanspur]

Why not? Only a fool would believe powerful people don't use their influence.

Does AIPAC likewise not have strong political influence?

Why else is the news coverage in the US so pro Israel, and why are politicians so pro Israel despite having very few direct links to Israel?



No but you can assume the majority of Jewish people are pro Israel, for obvious reasons.

Because its an awful comment and the stereotype encourages anger, aggression and hatred towards Jewish people.

Its also not true. The CEOs of Fox news, MSNBC, CNN for instance are all not Jewish. And even if they were, you can make comments about the bias on these news sites without referencing religion or ethnicity.

AIPAC does indeed wield strong political influence, as do powerful people in general. There are also many other lobbies which wield power.

Why is the news coverage so pro Israel? For lots of reasons. The evangelical christian right. The impression that it is the only democracy in the region and the strongest US ally. Historical Western guilt about treatment of the Jews. The tactics used by the Palestinians at times. The general American attitude towards Muslims/Middle Eastern people considering the last few decades of their foreign policy. And yes, the Jewish vote will also play a role, just as it does for other demographics too in some places (ie your views on Cuba if you're running in Florida).

Its not all some grand Jewish conspiracy and comments like those are not at all helpful to the situation, nor do they really help normal Jewish people around the world see it as anything other than an attack on them.

 

[VorZakone]

My opinion is that Israel simply wants too much. But in doing so, they're ignoring international opinion and also prolonging the conflict because what they want is not realistic (all Palestinians moving to neighbouring countries).

A 2-state solution still seems the best one. In that scenario Israel will likely still have security guarantees from the US, they'll still have their nukes and they would gain much needed PR.

 

[Carolina Red]

Because its an awful comment and the stereotype encourages anger, aggression and hatred towards Jewish people.

Its also not true. The CEOs of Fox news, MSNBC, CNN for instance are all not Jewish. And even if they were, you can make comments about the bias on these news sites without referencing religion or ethnicity.

AIPAC does indeed wield strong political influence, as do powerful people in general. There are also many other lobbies which wield power.

Why is the news coverage so pro Israel? For lots of reasons. The evangelical christian right. The impression that it is the only democracy in the region and the strongest US ally. Historical Western guilt about treatment of the Jews. The tactics used by the Palestinians at times. The general American attitude towards Muslims/Middle Eastern people considering the last few decades of their foreign policy. And yes, the Jewish vote will also play a role, just as it does for other demographics too in some places (ie your views on Cuba if you're running in Florida).

Its not all some grand Jewish conspiracy and comments like those are not at all helpful to the situation, nor do they really help normal Jewish people around the world see it as anything other than an attack on them.

Well said.

 

[MDFC Manager]

A very fair bit of the pro-Israel lobby in the US comes from the evangelical Christian right

Interesting. The hugely popular support in India for Israel comes from the Hindu right. Though one wonders if it's due to the other party in the conflict (Palestine) being Muslim.

 

[VorZakone]

Because its an awful comment and the stereotype encourages anger, aggression and hatred towards Jewish people.

Its also not true. The CEOs of Fox news, MSNBC, CNN for instance are all not Jewish. And even if they were, you can make comments about the bias on these news sites without referencing religion or ethnicity.

AIPAC does indeed wield strong political influence, as do powerful people in general. There are also many other lobbies which wield power.

Why is the news coverage so pro Israel? For lots of reasons. The evangelical christian right. The impression that it is the only democracy in the region and the strongest US ally. Historical Western guilt about treatment of the Jews. The tactics used by the Palestinians at times. The general American attitude towards Muslims/Middle Eastern people considering the last few decades of their foreign policy. And yes, the Jewish vote will also play a role, just as it does for other demographics too in some places (ie your views on Cuba if you're running in Florida).

Its not all some grand Jewish conspiracy and comments like those are not at all helpful to the situation, nor do they really help normal Jewish people around the world see it as anything other than an attack on them.

Good post.

 

[Mogget]

Whataboutism at its finest.

Your comparison would have worked if i had defended Israel attack by mentioning how Hamas does it too.

I dont have a skin in the game and can call out bias as i see fit. If i see Israel people parading young woman corpse naked and spitting on them, i wont respond with how it is justified because the other side has done something similar. As someone else pointed out, you can call out this attack as barbaric and still support the innocents suffering in Gaza strip. But if your response is only to respond with “what about this and that” then you deserve to be called out and your opinion can be classified as biased.

How is it whataboutism to say that you've done exactly what you accused that random Twitter poster of doing? Do you even know what the word means?

My comparison actually did work because he is someone who has only mentioned one set of victims (which you took issue with) and you are also someone who has only mentioned one set of victims.

 

[Gehrman]

True. And in fact, most of US support for Israel is undergirded by evangelicals.

And everyone are all worshipping the same Abrahamic god

 

[RedC]

This is what happens when you break someone's spirit through oppression; they either feel like they have no other option but to turn to the worst people, or they themselves become so engulfed in hatred that they just want revenge on anyone that appears to represent their oppressor. Violence against 'innocent' civilians is always awful, but how many Israelis go about their day laughing at the killing of Palestinian children, electing fascist leaders that cause these sorts of divisions by enforcing an apartheid state, set up deck chairs to watch and cheer as their government bomb a city? It's all just a shit show, head to toe, religion is the worst thing to ever happen to the world.

 

[Carolina Red]

Interesting. The hugely popular support in India for Israel comes from the Hindu right. Though one wonders if it's due to the other party in the conflict (Palestine) being Muslim.

For the evangelical right it’s because of their obsession with the 2nd coming of Christ. They see the State of Israel as a useful tool in bringing to fruition the prophesies that signal that it’s going to happen.

 

[Carolina Red]

And everyone are all worshipping the same Abrahamic god

Don’t tell the evangelicals that

 

[2cents]

Because its an awful comment and the stereotype encourages anger, aggression and hatred towards Jewish people.

Its also not true. The CEOs of Fox news, MSNBC, CNN for instance are all not Jewish. And even if they were, you can make comments about the bias on these news sites without referencing religion or ethnicity.

AIPAC does indeed wield strong political influence, as do powerful people in general. There are also many other lobbies which wield power.

Why is the news coverage so pro Israel? For lots of reasons. The evangelical christian right. The impression that it is the only democracy in the region and the strongest US ally. Historical Western guilt about treatment of the Jews. The tactics used by the Palestinians at times. The general American attitude towards Muslims/Middle Eastern people considering the last few decades of their foreign policy. And yes, the Jewish vote will also play a role, just as it does for other demographics too in some places (ie your views on Cuba if you're running in Florida).

Its not all some grand Jewish conspiracy and comments like those are not at all helpful to the situation, nor do they really help normal Jewish people around the world see it as anything other than an attack on them.

Thanks for this mate.

 

[Drainy]

Good post but I never said it was a conspiracy, just that powerful people and powerful lobbies will naturally use their influence in ways that benefit them and causes they care about.

Yeah, but you're not talking about animal agriculture lobby or the industrial military complex, you're essentially saying one minority group has a disproportionate influence because they have all the money and power, which is an antisemitic trope

 

[Simbo]

Seen almost constant explosions in Gaza since i turned a stream on 15 min ago

 

[Raoul]