Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Bosnian_fan said:
I will also predict that should it ever happen, then long term Israel will cease to exist, as that would esentially mean Israel, not Hamas and not Palestinians, killing the two state solution forever. And that would also mean the language of force is completely acceptable way of solving conflicts. Sooner or later, world power balance would shift, and whatever other state gets in power, it may not have as generous outlook on Israel as America. I'm not speaking about near future, it may be far away even from our kids lifetime, but what Israel is doing, and what they would actually do by annexing Gaza and essentially destroying the chances of Palestines existence, is setting themselves up for getting destroyed sometime in the future. Unless of course they are capable of subduing remaining hundreds of milions of Arabs in surrounding countries to their will or destroying them alltogether, which I highly doubt. There may be puppet governments like Sisi in Egypt, but these things will not last forever, I'm pretty sure.
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It sure as hell is a ticking time bomb, I've said on this thread before but the way things are going it's going to be catastrophic for the region.
 
Amir said:
Personally I think that there is no real plan, and that Netanyahu is making it up as he goes along, letting certain people hear what they want, while trying to survive politically.

Historically, he's just not very good at planning things and making bold decisions. He'd rather not decide, until he absolutely has to.
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That sounds like the sort of trait that would get found out pretty quickly. How has he managed to dominate politics for so many years?
 
Bosnian_fan said:
I will also predict that should it ever happen, then long term Israel will cease to exist, as that would esentially mean Israel, not Hamas and not Palestinians, killing the two state solution forever. And that would also mean the language of force is completely acceptable way of solving conflicts. Sooner or later, world power balance would shift, and whatever other state gets in power, it may not have as generous outlook on Israel as America. I'm not speaking about near future, it may be far away even from our kids lifetime, but what Israel is doing, and what they would actually do by annexing Gaza and essentially destroying the chances of Palestines existence, is setting themselves up for getting destroyed sometime in the future. Unless of course they are capable of subduing remaining hundreds of milions of Arabs in surrounding countries to their will or destroying them alltogether, which I highly doubt. There may be puppet governments like Sisi in Egypt, but these things will not last forever, I'm pretty sure.
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The ethnic cleansing of Gaza would most likely bring about another Arab spring. One of the reasons Sisi/King of Jordan etc. are so against it despite being offered billions by Israel/US to take the Gazans is they know that it will throw their country into total anarchy. 99% of the population of Egypt/Jordan and other Arab countries are firmly behind the Gazans cause and the annexation of Gaza to Israel will cause shockwaves through the region. If this does happen it will set the region back 10-20 years.
 
langster said:


Merry Christmas everyone. Is this the begging of an escalating conflict? Or will this be handled politically?
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I feel like I’m in a parallel universe.

Israel can bomb Palestine because ”we’re aiming for Hamas”, and can bomb Syria because ”we’re aiming for Iranians”.…

… and they effectively have immunity because of America.

Isn’t that frowned upon when it’s 90%+ of the world?
 
Why moving to the Sinai peninsula is the solution for Gaza's Palestinians - opinion
The Sinai Peninsula comprises one of the most suitable places on Earth to provide the people of Gaza with hope and a peaceful future.

A lot of highlights throughout, this is my personal favourite:

However, history has taught us that Gazans, despite their complaints about their humanitarian situation, may object towards genuine rehabilitation programs. This stubbornness substantially relies on their desire to destroy Israel, which repeatedly comes at their own expense.
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https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-779510
 
I used to think the holocaust couldn’t happen in the 21st century. It absolutely would.
The West as accepted that Palestinians are less that human.

 
Adisa said:
I used to think the holocaust couldn’t happen in the 21st century. It absolutely would.
The West as accepted that Palestinians are less that human.

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Israelis are much smarter than Palestinians in their rhetoric for sure.

Though this did make me chuckle:

However, history has taught us that Gazans, despite their complaints about their humanitarian situation, may object towards genuine rehabilitation programs. This stubbornness substantially relies on their desire to destroy Israel, which repeatedly comes at their own expense.
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Even their stubbornness to be ethnically cleansed is due to anti semitisim.
 
Frosty said:
That sounds like the sort of trait that would get found out pretty quickly. How has he managed to dominate politics for so many years?
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Well, you could say that this is the reason why his first tenure as PM ended in 1999 after three years when everyone deserted him, and it took him another decade to return to the role.

In between, he built this brilliant (unfortunately) PR machine that portrays him as something that he isn't and built a cult of worshippers, in politics and in the population. He also loosened any judgements such as morality or the right thing to do for the country in order to create a big political block with other parties who simply want the budgets that he as PM can give them.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Shame. Our tax dollars are contributing to killing children. Makes me sick.
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If it helps, it also contributes to killing elderly and innocent people. It also allows extremists and opportunists to stay in power. Now the EU also send money to Israel though the figures are smaller.
 
Classroom massacre: Survivors say Israel executed innocents in Gaza school

Jumaa said he was able to return to check on his relatives in the school several days later when Israeli forces left, but was “shocked to find that everyone in it had been executed in a brutal manner”.

“In the room were my sister’s husband and next to him, their sons Maysara and Ahmed. My sister in the corner was hugging her remaining children,” Jumaa said.

Israeli forces killed them by “firing at them point-blank”, he said. Their bodies were “swollen and filled with worms”, he added.

According to Jumaa, Israeli soldiers had “written something in Hebrew” on his nephew’s face.

“We did not understand the meaning, and we were in a hurry to bury them days later as their bodies had decomposed,” he said.

Another witness who found the bodies in the classrooms said there were no signs of a missile strike or any shells inside the classrooms, adding that the victims were “shot at directly” by ground troops.

In total, at least seven bodies were found inside three different classrooms. Four were in one room, two in the second room and one was in the third.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Shame. Our tax dollars are contributing to killing children. Makes me sick.
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JPRouve said:
If it helps, it also contributes to killing elderly and innocent people. It also allows extremists and opportunists to stay in power. Now the EU also send money to Israel though the figures are smaller.
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It's my opinion that had Israel not had the backing from USA they don't kill with impunity.

USA is more at fault for every innocent death in Gaza and the West bank than Israel itself
 
Roane said:
It's my opinion that had Israel not had the backing from USA they don't kill with impunity.

USA is more at fault for every innocent death in Gaza and the West bank than Israel itself
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The US quite obviously aren't more at fault. Israeli leaders aren't children. The US and many European leaders are complicit but Israel are by far the most at fault.
 
JPRouve said:
The US quite obviously aren't more at fault. Israeli leaders aren't children. The US and many European leaders are complicit but Israel are by far the most at fault.
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I agree about European countries which are mostly just the US lapdogs, especially Great Britain.

The US though is more than just being complicit. They play a very active role in this war, not just diplomatically or politically but on the ground.
 
Idxomer said:
I agree about European countries which are mostly just the US lapdogs, especially Great Britain.

The US though is more than just being complicit. They play a very active role in this war, not just diplomatically or politically but on the ground.
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Which is the definition of complicit. Israel commited or commit crimes and they are helped by the US, the distinction is important when the US wouldn't be involved if Israel didn't initiate things.
 
JPRouve said:
Which is the definition of complicit. Israel commited or commit crimes and they are helped by the US, the distinction is important when the US wouldn't be involved if Israel didn't initiate things.
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Yes, but it's not just about initiating things. It's about the scale and how far they've gone. Without being empowered in every facet of their existence by the US for the last 70 years, they would never have gone that far.

So, naturally Israelis are the most at fault but the Americans aren't far off.
 
Idxomer said:
Yes, but it's not just about initiating things. It's about the scale and how far they've gone. Without being empowered in every facet of their existence by the US for the last 70 years, they would never have gone that far.

So, naturally Israelis are the most at fault but the Americans aren't far off.
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I could accept that but you initially reversed positions which is quite obviously incorrect. We can be critical of the US without making claims that are indefensible.
 
JPRouve said:
If it helps, it also contributes to killing elderly and innocent people. It also allows extremists and opportunists to stay in power. Now the EU also send money to Israel though the figures are smaller.
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This is pretty much the reality of it. I'm pretty sure there was other less barbaric ways to find and stop hamas. Why do they get to pick and choose what innocent lives matter? The most unbelievable thing about all this is that the whole world is watching a nation get totally wiped from the face of the earth and those who can stop this are eerily quiet.
Roane said:
It's my opinion that had Israel not had the backing from USA they don't kill with impunity.

USA is more at fault for every innocent death in Gaza and the West bank than Israel itself
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US backing is a huge factor but like someone mentioned this is all Israel. If any other nation even attempts a mass destruction anywhere close to this, it'll get shutdown immediately but this has gone on for what seems like an eternity. When will it end?
 
JPRouve said:
I could accept that but you initially reversed positions which is quite obviously incorrect. We can be critical of the US without making claims that are indefensible.
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That wasn't me, it was Roane. The point of my initial reply was a bit unclear and you probably took it as a complete agreement with Roane's point. It was mainly about how far off really the US is in the blame game.
 
JPRouve said:
The US quite obviously aren't more at fault. Israeli leaders aren't children. The US and many European leaders are complicit but Israel are by far the most at fault.
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I think the US is equally culpable at the least. There's being complicit (in the case of European nations), then there's being the essential enabler. Israel carries out the atrocities safe in the knowledge the US will absolve them every which way, it's also US bombs that are dropping on Palestinian children.

The US uniquely is the only nation that not only has the power to force a ceasefire, but they also have leverage to force through a lasting and just solution for peace. They clearly choose not to since their establishment is compromised by overwhelming pro Israel sentiment.

You blame the parent as much as you blame the terror child.
 
JPRouve said:
The US quite obviously aren't more at fault. Israeli leaders aren't children. The US and many European leaders are complicit but Israel are by far the most at fault.
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As I said it's my opinion, one which I believe is shared by a lot of people from outside Europe in my experience. Governments may say one thing but I speak of the people.

Israel is financed and weaponised by the USA. The USA has self interest, since World War 2 in keeping turmoil in the Middle East. More than once countries (Gadafi and Saddam) have "challenged" the USA, not militarily but by wanting to trade in Gold. We saw the result.

Even now Israel has full support of the USA. Ships in the water, endless arms and funds. IF Israel didn't have this and the fact that USA have vetoed every plan for a solution, they would have had to play nice considering their place on the map.

As I say it's my opinion and folk are free to disagree.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
This is pretty much the reality of it. I'm pretty sure there was other less barbaric ways to find and stop hamas. Why do they get to pick and choose what innocent lives matter? The most unbelievable thing about all this is that the whole world is watching a nation get totally wiped from the face of the earth and those who can stop this are eerily quiet.

US backing is a huge factor but like someone mentioned this is all Israel. If any other nation even attempts a mass destruction anywhere close to this, it'll get shutdown immediately but this has gone on for what seems like an eternity. When will it end?
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I get what you are saying but for me it's like the little runt who hangs around with the big boys/bullies. Causes all the trouble knowing there isn't any consequence as others will do the fighting.

On a lighter note as an American have you seen the Kid n Play movie house party? Israel is like that little fella with Stab.
 
JPRouve said:
Which is the definition of complicit. Israel commited or commit crimes and they are helped by the US, the distinction is important when the US wouldn't be involved if Israel didn't initiate things.
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Short of having troops in Gaza, the US are as guilty as Israel. The EU are complicit, but the US plays an active part in this war.

They constantly supply Israel with weapons and ammunition, perfectly knowing how they're going to be used and without which this war would've been over weeks ago, and protect them from any retaliation. Furthermore, the US actively blocks any international attempt for a cease-fire and allows this massacre to go on, despite the absolutely disproportionate response to the 10/7 attacks and the horrific humanitarian crisis. They've also been as much an obstacle to the two state solution as the Netanyahu government (and Hamas).

There's no distinction to be made between these two bullies, and the amount of hatred the US is currently generating across the world, especially within the Arab populations, will have consequences in the coming years.
 
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Halftrack said:
Is it okay to compare them to Nazi-Germany now, or?
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No need to do so to be honest. It actually helps the perpetrators in these situations. They end up disputing the comparison because "the Nazis did X and Y and we didn't", and then there is a massive argument about the comparison which aims to distract from what is actually being carried out.

You don't need any comparison to condemn what is going on, and what is very likely to follow in the coming months.
 
Halftrack said:
Is it okay to compare them to Nazi-Germany now, or?
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There is levels of evil. Nazi Germany was on a mission to eliminate every European jew and by the end of the war they had killed 2/3 of the Jewish population, not to mention all the other non-jewish victims.

Think some perspective is needed. Even if they wanted to do that with Gaza it wouldn't be possible in todays world. Certainly they have indiscriminately bombed Gaza and punished the population.
 
roseguy64 said:
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He is not wrong even if I wish Hamas could disappear the fundamental ideas won't. But beyond that Israel actions in Gaza and West Bank are a promotion for Hamas and its equivalent.
 


More details here:
The Government Media Office in Gaza has accused Israel of stealing organs from 80 Palestinian bodies returned earlier in the day at the Karam Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom) border crossing.

“The media office denounces in the strongest terms the Israeli occupation army’s disdain for the dignity of the bodies of our 80 martyrs that Israel had stolen during its genocidal war because it delivered them mutilated,” a statement said.

“After examining the bodies, it is clear that the features of those killed had changed greatly in a clear indication that the Israeli occupation had stolen vital organs from them,” the statement went on to say.

The media office said this is not the first time Israel has “mutilated” Palestinian bodies, and it called for an independent international investigation into the taking of Palestinian bodies and theft of their organs.

“Israel has previously exhumed graves in Jabalia and stole some of the bodies in addition to the fact that it still has dozens of bodies from the Gaza Strip in its possession,” the office said.
 
Kaos said:
It doesn't help to.
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Really? Whenever I've gone to memorials and museums whether Germany or UK the key tennet on education has been to learn to ensure it never happens again. I don't think that applies only to the jewish.

There's an odd position from some that the parallel can only made on final outcome I.e. wait until mass slaughter occurs. Yet the above education has always been on the rise of tyranny and what that looks like so it can be stopped. You hear Germans say the same thing about their right wing even today.

If you look at the actions and commentary coming out Israel its alarming because we've seen what such dehumanisation CAN lead to.
 
The issue with the comparison to Nazi Germany is that it's supposed to work on the basis of shame. It is asking the Israeli if they feel ashamed to be a victimizer when they were previously a victim. But they've already answered that question. The answer is a resounding NO.

It is a different question if a German is asking "are we being the victimizer again." That is a repetition. This is a reversal.
 
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