Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

adexkola said:
Oh I agree with that. I think that objectively Ukraine are the wronged party, and have the clear moral upper hand in the war, in a way Israel does not. There is no indication that openly or behind closed doors, Israel is being asked hard questions in the way Ukraine is, regarding the purpose and feasibility of the war.
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Every side thinks they are in the right. If you delve back through the years of attack and reprisal, it ultimately comes down to if you think the specifically Jewish state of Israel has the right to exist or not, because that was the basis of the first war they fought in 1948, of which the rest are just extensions. If it has the right to exist it has the right to defend itself. If it does not - on the basis that it is a colonial and racist concept built on stolen land - then nothing they do is legitimate. But don't expect them to agree.
 
glazed said:
I think this conflict has permanently radicalised both sides. The Israelis won't rest till the only place left to live in Gaza is tents. And they will never give the Gazans water or food or power again since they are under no obligation to do so. So if Egypt doesn't step in or unless the sea blockade is lifted, then there will be a long running humanitarian catastrophe and the place will empty out.
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Israel has all along been the legal occupier in Gaza. It absolutely has the obligation to do so.
 
Raoul said:
Given that they planned the 10-7 attack for at least a year or two, they were probably banking on a regional conflict that never materialized, leaving them instead to fend for themselves against an Israel that is now committed to removing them from Gaza. An epic and fatal miscalculation that is impossible to undo at this stage.
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Although I suspect stopping the normalisation of Israli Saudi relations, after UAE's trade with Israel has skyrocketed, was also a goal.
 


Assuming Israel doesn't back out of this before it goes into effect.
 
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marktan said:
Are Hamas then justified then in fighting back against the IDF? No I thought not. Terrorist group, human shields, other pr narratives etc etc.

'Removing Hamas' is an impossibility, anyone with half a brain cell would know that. It's just the shield they've decided to hide their genocide and atrocities behind. It's actually frightening how many people become apologists for genocide if you hammer the right narrative into them.
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Hamas are completely justified in shooting back. It is a war after all and both sides are going to do whatever they can to win. The Israeli side have been pretty transparent that their objective is removing/disarming Hamas and they’re not likely to stop until they’ve done that.
 
Wibble said:
Although I suspect stopping the normalisation of Israli Saudi relations, after UAE's trade with Israel has skyrocketed, was also a goal.
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Agreed. The timing of the 10-7 attack, although planned for year or two, seemed to coincide with when the Saudis and Israelis were on the cusp of formally normalizing relations, so the what better way to thwart that than trigger the Israelis into a massive retaliation to delay the treaty.
 
Super Hans said:
Israel has all along been the legal occupier in Gaza. It absolutely has the obligation to do so.
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That might be your view but it's not their view. They will cut them off and make Egypt intervene. But Egypt doesn't want them either. The open air prison has an Egyptian border too.
 
marktan said:
'Removing Hamas' is an impossibility, anyone with half a brain cell would know that. It's just the shield they've decided to hide their genocide and atrocities behind.
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Discounting your emotive language, I agree. Israel's primary goal is to displace as much of the Gazan population as possible and reduce the rest to tents. Getting rid of Hamas is not possible because it's an ideology.

It's not genocide though. I would say the correct term is ethnic cleansing. It happened in 1948 and 1967 and it happened in Syria recently. It is a common outcome of wars in the middle east. Hamas thought they could trigger a middle east regional conflict and this is the result.
 
marktan said:
Which is why Israel now knows to:

1) Control the PR narrative

2) Have a lot of influence in American media organisations so they don't show a negative view of Israel (see NYT, cnn etc)

3) Have a lot of influence over almost all elected US congressmen.

And so they now have a free pass to do whatever they want. How often do you hear the story of a Palestinian killed in Gaza? And how often do you hear about the hostages? 12,000 dead? Not a single batted eyelid in the US. People are blind to the stranglehold Israel has on the US, and it's dangerous because it's a playbook that will be copied in many future wars.
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Don't forget that the entire Republican party (spare a few fringe extremists) are already very pro-Israel, as are most establishment Democrats. The only ones pushing back on all of this are random factions of Arab Americans and pockets of left leaning Gen Z college students (a demographic notorious for not showing up to vote when it actually counts). Therefore, the Israelis themselves don't have to do much to keep the American public on board, as its already woven into American culture to be sympathetic to Israel - both in terms of religion (end of times prophecy) and culture.
 
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Wibble said:
Although I suspect stopping the normalisation of Israli Saudi relations, after UAE's trade with Israel has skyrocketed, was also a goal.
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I always find this take fascinating. You know you’ve shifted the agency of Palestine from its people in this thinking. Respecting people in a struggle is a part of resolving it.
Countries did not fight for independence because their colonisers were doing good business elsewhere.
If 10/7 did not happen, it would have happened at a later date, either from Gaza or the West Bank. We all know what the common denominator is. Time to start looking the dragon in the eye and stop creating baseless complexities to a very simply straightforward matter.
 
Sir Matt said:
Came here to post this. I assume they are waiting to see why Bibi torpedoes this particular iteration of the deal like he's done in the past.
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Someone obviously leaked it to the Wapo, so I would imagine it will happen at some point, just not as immediate as the Wapo article may suggest.
 
Sir Matt said:
Came here to post this. I assume they are waiting to see why Bibi torpedoes this particular iteration of the deal like he's done in the past.
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Yep I think you right. Its not in Netanyahu interest to stop the attacks or really to give the Biden administration a “win”.
 
KikiDaKats said:
I always find this take fascinating. You know you’ve shifted the agency of Palestine from its people in this thinking. Respecting people in a struggle is a part of resolving it.
Countries did not fight for independence because their colonisers were doing good business elsewhere.
If 10/7 did not happen, it would have happened at a later date, either from Gaza or the West Bank. We all know what the common denominator is. Time to start looking the dragon in the eye and stop creating baseless complexities to a very simply straightforward matter.
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If you think the situation doesn't have mutli-fasceted complexities then you aren't looking hard enough. Something can have multiple causes and motivations.

The normalising of relationships with Arab nations has been progressing quickly and a Saudi trade deal would have been imminent as part of Saudi's plan to "de-risk"the region as part of their 2030 vision plan. Which obviously wouldn't be what Hamas want. It is probably too late to stop it but it will delay a deal.
 
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Wibble said:
If you think the situation doesn't have mutli-fasceted complexities then you aren't looking hard enough. Something can have multiple causes and motivations.

The normalising of relationships with Arab nations has been progressing quickly and a Saudi would have been imminent as part of Saudi's plan to "de-risk"the region as part of their 2030 vision plan. Which obviously wouldn't he what Hamas want. It is probably too late to stop it but it will delay a deal.
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You notice there is no “probably” in my statement. These manufactured complexities come when the usual parties outside the conflict choose talking to themselves instead of listen to what the actual people on the ground are saying. Don’t take their agency away from them with constant accumulation of perceived complexities to make their existence irrelevant.
US wants to talk about this issue they talk to Israel and neighbouring states, whilst the Palestinians are running around asking what was talked about in that meeting. Who ever is peddling these complexities stands to gain from it but not the Palestinians, whose reality it is. People can’t continue take their agency away from them.
 
KikiDaKats said:
You notice there is no “probably” in my statement. These manufactured complexities come when the usual parties outside the conflict choose talking to themselves instead of listen to what the actual people on the ground are saying. Don’t take their agency away from them with constant accumulation of perceived complexities to make their existence irrelevant.
US wants to talk about this issue they talk to Israel and neighbouring states, whilst the Palestinians are running around asking what was talked about in that meeting. Who ever is peddling these complexities stands to gain from it but not the Palestinians, whose reality it is. People can’t continue take their agency away from them.
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Accepting the undeniably and totally obvious doesn't take agency away. Naively thinking it is simple will advance a solution not at all. If it were simple a solution would already be in place. Obviously.
 
Wibble said:
Accepting the undeniably and totally obvious doesn't take agency away. Naively thinking it is simple will advance a solution not at all. If it were simple a solution would already be in place. Obviously.
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What will a solution look like in their lives?
 
KikiDaKats said:
You notice there is no “probably” in my statement. These manufactured complexities come when the usual parties outside the conflict choose talking to themselves instead of listen to what the actual people on the ground are saying. Don’t take their agency away from them with constant accumulation of perceived complexities to make their existence irrelevant.
US wants to talk about this issue they talk to Israel and neighbouring states, whilst the Palestinians are running around asking what was talked about in that meeting. Who ever is peddling these complexities stands to gain from it but not the Palestinians, whose reality it is. People can’t continue take their agency away from them.
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The complexities involved arent manufactured. They arent created by outside forces. They are evident in the reality of the situation for both sides. There are multiple problems at play. This is complex because of the multiple issues at play, not because outside forces say they are complex but because thy actually are.
 


Good lord, now we have Candace Owens (confirmed moron) flame waring against colleague Ben Shapiro in public, so now she is hosting Norman fecking Finkelstein to discuss Israel Palestine. We are through the looking glass now my friends.

Buckle up.
 
Probably missed it somewhere in this thread but I read earlier Ahmed Abbassi was killed in Gaza. He was head of Gift of the Givers. That’s extremely sad, as is everyone who’s lost their lives of course.
 
maniak said:
A man and his family were murdered. Not a terrorist, someone working at a hospital, where people are struggling to save lives. But yeah, let's discuss the word martyr, that's really important.
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Any form of pedantry that takes the thread away from discussing Israel killing thousands of civilians is time well spent for some it seems.
 
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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:


Good lord, now we have Candace Owens (confirmed moron) flame waring against colleague Ben Shapiro in public, so now she is hosting Norman fecking Finkelstein to discuss Israel Palestine. We are through the looking glass now my friends.

Buckle up.
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Candace Owens along with Charlie Kirk and probably a few others of these right-wing talking heads on new media platforms have placed themselves firmly in the Elon Musk/Tucker Carlson camp, where their antisemitic masks are slipping more and more by the day. They are now openly talking about how Jewish organization and Jewish financiers have been pushing anti-white rhetoric and policies for years, so they can't now be complaining about antisemitism. It's wild.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Candace Owens along with Charlie Kirk and probably a few others of these right-wing talking heads on new media platforms have placed themselves firmly in the Elon Musk/Tucker Carlson camp, where their antisemitic masks are slipping more and more by the day. They are now openly talking about how Jewish organization and Jewish financiers have been pushing anti-white rhetoric and policies for years, so they can't now be complaining about antisemitism. It's wild.
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It’s all a grift for them at the end of the day. They’ll veer from anti semitism to islamophobia quite regularly just to chase the money and suit their agenda.
 
WHO says Gaza's al-Shifa hospital a death zone, as hundreds leave

The World Health Organization (WHO) has described al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City as a "death zone" after a visit to the complex.
A joint UN team led by the WHO assessed the hospital for one hour following its occupation and evacuation by the Israeli military.
The team said they saw evidence of shelling and gunfire and observed a mass grave at the hospital's entrance.
They were told it held the remains of 80 people.
Following an evacuation which the hospital director said was ordered by the Israeli army but which the army said was requested by the director, 300 critically ill patients remain in al-Shifa - formerly the largest and most advanced hospital in Gaza.
The WHO said it was trying to arrange the urgent evacuation of remaining patients and staff to other facilities in Gaza, and repeated calls for a ceasefire.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67462615

Hospitals, UN schools, mosques, homes, nothing seems to be off limits to these cnuts.
 
The New York Times is not a leftist news organization by any stretch of the imagination and is not even remotely anti-war.
 
Ah we’re now back at the “Jews control America” stage of the analysis.
 
That_Bloke said:
It's quite incredible that this idea just won't die.
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The control of banks (.. so wealth… so power) idea has never really gone away. Been around decades to my knowledge.

This is added to by the number of senior US posts held by people who are Jewish (Sec of State, US attorney)… I saw a tweet a couple of weeks ago listing quite a number.

“control” no.. “influence” yes. No idea how much.

(someone posted a bit above that sympathy to the Israeli cause has been embedded in a lot of US/US politics for some time… it’s unlikely to change)
 
Wibble said:
There won't be one any time soon. Which suggests the answer isn't simple.
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Maybe it is more simple than we think?

We have all the quotes from as far back as 1915 onwards about what the "homeland" will eventually look like. It's no secret that a two state solution was never seriously on the agenda


We have quotes from likes of Netanyahu about bolstering support for Hamas as this would ensure no peace and two state solution.

The Arab world's dynamic has changed. Saudi is looking to open up to tourism.etc as they know the oil game won't be what it is in a few years. Even Turkey has good relationships with Israel and there was the whole Issue oil coming in to Israel reports via Turkey. Basically relationships are good between governments.

Is now the time to take the whole of the land?
 
Mike Smalling said:
Candace Owens along with Charlie Kirk and probably a few others of these right-wing talking heads on new media platforms have placed themselves firmly in the Elon Musk/Tucker Carlson camp, where their antisemitic masks are slipping more and more by the day. They are now openly talking about how Jewish organization and Jewish financiers have been pushing anti-white rhetoric and policies for years, so they can't now be complaining about antisemitism. It's wild.
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Yeah I would definitely take any pro Palestinian content from Candace Owens with a huge pinch of salt because, knowing her history of vile antisemitism, it’s most likely not coming from a position of solidarity with the Palestinian cause.
 
Stack said:
The complexities involved arent manufactured. They arent created by outside forces. They are evident in the reality of the situation for both sides. There are multiple problems at play. This is complex because of the multiple issues at play, not because outside forces say they are complex but because thy actually are.
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Not so convinced that complexities aren't manufactured or created by outside forces. Just look at Egypt and all that's happened there.
The Arab springs?? Bashar al Assad
 
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