Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Dr. Dwayne]

Unprovoked attacks should always be condemned, but it's a question of whether the attacks are provoked or not. Palestinians have launched thousands of rockets at Israel. How do you suppose Israel deals with this? Just ignore it?

After a while, most sane people or groups would ask themselves why their approach wasn't having the desired effect.

 

[The Corinthian]

 

[calodo2003]

The safety window in the safe room in my apartment isn't working well, so if a rocket falls on me, it's been a fun ride, lads!

Damn.

What an environment, having to have a safe room.

 

[JPRouve]

Unprovoked attacks should always be condemned, but it's a question of whether the attacks are provoked or not. Palestinians have launched thousands of rockets at Israel. How do you suppose Israel deals with this? Just ignore it?

You are the one who talked about unprovoked aggressions from Israel, so why are you asking about rockets. Your own post suggests that Israel were the aggressors and palestinians responded. So again do you think that the aggressor should be equated to the retaliator?

As for your question my answer would be that Israel shouldn't attack civilians when unprovoked.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

I've read your comments and your vehement support for the state sponsored terrorism by Israel.
How would you feel if you were walking and I came from behind .. punched you in the face, broke your teeth and nose, gave you a black eye and then broke your ribs and when I was leaving you somehow got up and tried to kick me in the nuts but missed.

And after that, the people witnessing everything blamed us both for fighting. Would that be fair?

You're only seeing things from a Palestinian perspective. My guess is that it is because you're a Muslim, and so you feel personally affected. Yes?
I'm not a Jew or Muslim, so I see the provocation from both sides, and condemn both equally.

 

[Spoony]

Unprovoked attacks should always be condemned, but it's a question of whether the attacks are provoked or not. Palestinians have launched thousands of rockets at Israel. How do you suppose Israel deals with this? Just ignore it?

Wow.

Justifying the massacre of innocent men and children during prayers...is a new low.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

You are the one who talked about unprovoked aggressions from Israel, so why are you asking about rockets. Your own post suggests that Israel were the aggressors and palestinians responded. So again do you think that the aggressor should be equated to the retaliator?

As for your question,my answer would be that Israel shouldn't attack civilians when unprovoked.

All unprovoked attacks are wrong. Are you suggesting that all Israeli attacks are unprovoked?
Its ok to fire thousands of mortars at Israel?

 

[snk123]

You're only seeing things from a Palestinian perspective. My guess is that it is because you're a Muslim, and so you feel personally affected. Yes?
I'm not a Jew or Muslim, so I see the provocation from both sides, and condemn both equally.

It's not about being a Muslim or a Jew. 9 children were killed FFS - over 200 people injured. As much as you'd like to condemn both "equally" there is only one aggressor here with all the military, might and technology doing ethnic cleansing and the world is just watching.

The rockets are merely fireworks for Israel/Iron Dome and we all know that.

 

[JPRouve]

All unprovoked attacks are wrong. Are you suggesting that all Israeli attacks are unprovoked?
Its ok to fire thousands of mortars at Israel?

You are the one who talked about unprovoked aggressions and tried to equate it to the victims retaliating, so why are you asking me? Those are your words.

 

[2cents]

I have, but I honestly don’t know what this specific flare up is about.

Is it an extension of the eviction issue?

A few different things came to a head simultaneously - Sheikh Jarrah eviction issue, Israeli government formation (excluding Netanyahu whose trial is apparently continuing through all this), empowerment of far-right Kahanists due to political deadlock, Ramadan restrictions imposed by Israeli authorities in Jerusalem, Quds Day (last Friday of Ramadan) followed quickly by Jerusalem Day, and an attack in West Bank. Probably some more stuff I’ve forgotten.

Longer term stuff - Palestinians generally feeling ignored and marginalized since Israeli-Arab peace accords, and the Israeli right being generally drunk on the “success” of the Trump years.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Wow.

Justifying the massacre of innocent men and children during prayers...is a new low.

I haven't justified anything of the sort.
Do you agree with firing rockets into Tel-Aviv?

 

[2cents]

The rockets are merely fireworks for Israel/Iron Dome and we all know that.

There’s at least three Israelis killed tonight by rockets, so not quite.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

You are the one who talked about unprovoked aggressions and tried to equate it to the victims retaliating, so why are you asking me? Those are your words.

I said that all unprovoked aggression should be condemned. I didn't say that Israel's aggression was unprovoked.
All unprovoked aggression by Hamas should be equally condemned, yes?

 

[maniak]

I said that all unprovoked aggression should be condemned. I didn't say that Israel's aggression was unprovoked.
All unprovoked aggression by Hamas should be equally condemned, yes?

Why do you keep asking those questions? Do you see anyone here supporting hamas? Talking about whataboutism...

 

[2cents]

Btw possibly more significant than the Gaza situation - there are reports of major Arab-Jewish rioting and violence in multiple Israeli cities tonight. Synagogues and mosques being targeted.

 

[ZupZup]

All unprovoked aggression by Hamas should be equally condemned, yes?

What unprovoked aggression by Hamas would that be? There doesn’t appear to have been any in this sad episode...

 

[calodo2003]

A few different things came to a head simultaneously - Sheikh Jarrah eviction issue, Israeli government formation (excluding Netanyahu whose trial is apparently continuing through all this), empowerment of far-right Kahanists due to political deadlock, Ramadan restrictions imposed by Israeli authorities in Jerusalem, Quds Day (last Friday of Ramadan) followed quickly by Jerusalem Day, and an attack in West Bank. Probably some more stuff I’ve forgotten.

Longer term stuff - Palestinians generally feeling ignored and marginalized since Israeli-Arab peace accords, and the Israeli right being generally drunk on the “success” of the Trump years.

Have a reasonably solid grasp of the long term issues.

Thanks for bulletpointing the short term stuff.

 

[JPRouve]

I said that all unprovoked aggression should be condemned. I didn't say that Israel's aggression was unprovoked.
All unprovoked aggression by Hamas should be equally condemned, yes?

You said unprovoked aggressions from Israel should be equally condemned. And I asked you if you actually thought that they should be equally condemned when they are the aggressor in your own scenario.

Randomly firing rockets into Tel-Aviv should be condemned, yes?
Unprovoked aggression from Israel should also be equally condemned.

 

[Jippy]

I said that all unprovoked aggression should be condemned. I didn't say that Israel's aggression was unprovoked.
All unprovoked aggression by Hamas should be equally condemned, yes?

Both sides obviously feel provoked for different, complex reasons. No-one appears to be advocating civilian deaths here, not sure why you're so desperate for people on a football forum to condemn this or that..

 

[vidic blood & sand]

You said unprovoked aggressions from Israel should be equally condemned. And I asked you if you actually thought that they should be equally condemned when they are the aggressor in your own scenario.

I explained it already. Attacks from both sides should be equally condemned if they are unprovoked. Yes?
From a lot of the posts I'm reading here, I get the feeling that it is assumed Israel is doing all the provoking.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

The rockets thing is the biggest crock of whataboutist bullshit you can get. Who is advocating for rocket attacks on civilians? Anyone? How many people have died as a result of them compared to the the numbers posted by the IDF systematically slaughtering innocents on a daily weekly monthly every fecking year? Tryng to draw the 'both sides' picture here is pathetic. One side has all the power and is using it in front of everyone's eyes for apartheid and ethnic cleansing.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ROCKETS?!?!?

feck off

 

[snk123]

The rockets thing is the biggest crock of whataboutist bullshit you can get. Who is advocating for rocket attacks on civilians? Anyone? How many people have died as a result of them compared to the the numbers posted by the IDF systematically slaughtering innocents on a daily weekly monthly every fecking year? Tryng to draw the 'both sides' picture here is pathetic. One side has all the power and is using it in front of everyone's eyes for apartheid and ethnic cleansing.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ROCKETS?!?!?

feck off

It's always been this way. Any sort of minor retaliation to decades of violence is painted as a "conflict", a "clash" and both should be condemned "equally". What a load of crap. Do these people not have any sort of conscience anymore?

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Both sides obviously feel provoked for different, complex reasons. No-one appears to be advocating civilian deaths here, not sure why you're so desperate for people on a football forum to condemn this or that..

I was amazed to see two people here refusing to accept Israel as a state, and so I wondered whether they may have actually supported these rocket attacks on Tel-Aviv.
If we can all condemn it, great.

 

[shamans]

I have, but I honestly don’t know what this specific flare up is about.

Is it an extension of the eviction issue?

Sorry to use you as an example but yet another example of how west is not reporting this, or wasn't till the hammas rockets.

Israel were first aggressors on palestine in Aqsa. Unarmed vs IDF.

But no focus must be on Hamas rockets now.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

It's always been this way. Any sort of minor retaliation to decades of violence is painted as a "conflict", a "clash" and both should be condemned "equally". What a load of crap. Do these people not have any sort of conscience anymore?

Oh they got a "conscience", they're simply not offended by what they see.

 

[2cents]

Btw possibly more significant than the Gaza situation - there are reports of major Arab-Jewish rioting and violence in multiple Israeli cities tonight. Synagogues and mosques being targeted.

Now this:



Entire country is on the brink now, multiple possible fronts of confrontation. Only the West Bank remaining quiet for the time being.

 

[shamans]

I was amazed to see two people here refusing to accept Israel as a state, and so I wondered whether they may have actually supported these rocket attacks on Tel-Aviv tonight.
If we can all condemn it, great.

You are just playing smart with words same as any journalist asking "but do you condemn the rockets ??? "

The reason this question is asked is not to know if someone condemns it or not. It's a sly tactic to try and turn this issue into a conflict again. As a war that's happening on both sides.

One side is the aggressor and another the defender. The defenders are desperate and unarmed and fleeing to their last resort. Now you want people to condemn how the defenders defend but you never make it clear like that.

I'm sure if the questions were framed in an honest way you would get an answer.

 

[shamans]

Oh they got a "conscience", they're simply not offended by what they see.

For many this is vicariously living through Israel anyway.

 

[shamans]

Damn.

What an environment, having to have a safe room.

I think it's a concession countries who are willing to mutilate innocent women and children chose to make. Ethnic cleansing can be troublesome after all

 

[JPRouve]

I think it's a concession countries who are willing to mutilate innocent women and children chose to make. Ethnic cleansing can be troublesome after all

I think that it's fair to point out that Amir is most likely a victim of the situation and didn't chose it.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

You are just playing smart with words same as any journalist asking "but do you condemn the rockets ??? "

The reason this question is asked is not to know if someone condemns it or not. It's a sly tactic to try and turn this issue into a conflict again. As a war that's happening on both sides.

One side is the aggressor and another the defender. The defenders are desperate and unarmed and fleeing to their last resort. Now you want people to condemn how the defenders defend but you never make it clear like that.

I'm sure if the questions were framed in an honest way you would get an answer.

What would you say is the solution to the conflict?

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

For many this is vicariously living through Israel anyway.

When media outlets here in the West frame information the way they do, there's only really one way to see things for many people.

My wife had to explain the situation to several of her colleagues today who were all under the impression Palestinians just decided to lob rockets and now people are dead.

 

[africanspur]

The safety window in the safe room in my apartment isn't working well, so if a rocket falls on me, it's been a fun ride, lads!

Shit man, I'm sorry. Stay safe.

 

[calodo2003]

Sorry to use you as an example but yet another example of how west is not reporting this, or wasn't till the hammas rockets.

Israel were first aggressors on palestine in Aqsa. Unarmed vs IDF.

But no focus must be on Hamas rockets now.

It’s not specifically any bias of reporting, I literally hadn’t been paying attention until today. I’d seen clips of shit popping off re: Al Aqsa mosque, etc., but I hadn’t watched them or availed myself of any articles until today.

I also don’t have cable nor do I watch broadcast television.

I wouldn’t be surprised that coverage of the current events is ‘below the fold’ in any US media, it just doesn’t rise to the level of import for the country right now by most metrics, regardless of political ideology of the media source. This current conflict seemed to be rather limited from a visual perspective until the rocket attacks.

That’s unfortunate, but it’s the reality.

 

[Synco]

Both sides obviously feel provoked for different, complex reasons. No-one appears to be advocating civilian deaths here, not sure why you're so desperate for people on a football forum to condemn this or that..

Why do you keep asking those questions? Do you see anyone here supporting hamas? Talking about whataboutism...

The rocket barrages have been justified or downplayed as neglectable several times so far.

You said unprovoked aggressions from Israel should be equally condemned. And I asked you if you actually thought that they should be equally condemned when they are the aggressor in your own scenario.

It's not as if there's one trigger and everything that follows is inevitable. There were multiple steps in this, with decisions being made along the way.

My grasp of the whole development so far is this: the Israeli side is at fault both on the issue of East Jerusalem home evictions and Al Aqsa. The relevant factions were escalating these situations and it all blew up. Law & order logic then kicked in when deescalation may still have been possible, which led to the scenes of riot police storming Al Aqsa. The decision to escalate this towards a whole new level however was made by Hamas, who started firing rockets at Israeli cities (and must also have allowed PIJ to do so, who were in the past restricted by them). Probably because they aimed at a political boost by displaying themselves as champions of the Palestinian cause. The IDF's response of bombarding targets in Gaza, and the civilian deaths it causes, is again Israel's responsibility.

 

[maniak]

The rocket barrages have been justified or downplayed as neglectable several times so far.

Is that the same as supporting hamas?

 

[Synco]

Is that the same as supporting hamas?

In their actions, yes. Wasn't that the context?

 

[maniak]

In their actions, yes. Wasn't that the context?

No one supported that.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Israel declares state of emergency in Lod

 

[Synco]

No one supported that.

Depends on if you treat various justification strategies as support:

The rockets are merely fireworks for Israel/Iron Dome and we all know that.

Any sort of minor retaliation to decades of violence is painted as a "conflict", a "clash" and both should be condemned "equally". What a load of crap.

One side is the aggressor and another the defender. The defenders are desperate and unarmed and fleeing to their last resort. Now you want people to condemn how the defenders defend but you never make it clear like that.

United Nations resolution 37/43, dated 3 December 1982, “reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle.”

Then there was a (now deleted) post that read:
Palestinians are now dehumanized to the point where some don't even think they should have the right to self defense.

All of this was in the context of the rocket attacks.