Been done before. Perhaps you should boycott all American products instead, starting with your own shopping list. That'll show 'em.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Been done before. Perhaps you should boycott all American products instead, starting with your own shopping list. That'll show 'em.
Moreover, boycotting Israel doesn't work. For instance, anything the Israelis lose by way of a few sparse, half-hearted boycotts are more than made up for by the soft power they gain from all the Israeli TV shows and movies on Netflix and other streaming services. Fauda alone, has boosted Israeli soft power narratives to where no boycott would ever amount to much, let alone move the needle on Israeli policy.
if that's true, then why have the us and the uk made legislative moves to make boycotting israel illegal? they're clearly responding to the threat. you have to sign an agreement, or take an oath, in some us states that you will not boycott israel just to do basic business. if the boycots pose no threat, why make those moves?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/23/israel-apartheid-boycotts-sanctions-south-africa
The South Africa example won’t work on Israel because there is no global unanimity on Israel policy, whereas there was quite a bit of it on South Africa, including by the US.
The US and various European countries will continue to support Israel and individual states within the US will make silly laws to make sure there are no tangible boycotts.
This is why boycotts on Israel are a dead end that won’t yield substantive policy change.
boycotting isn't even necessarily the best answer to the situation in israel and many palestinians don't even support it. some do though. i was just wondering why the us and uk would legislate against the boycotting of israeli goods if it posed no tangible threat. i think there is global unanimity that israel is an apartheid state but that doesn't translate into policy decisions and isn't likely to. in truth israel will face a kind of social reckoning but it will come internally which is probably for the best all round. which basically means that the boycotts aren't really necessary for those who do it for palestinian solidarity. the demographics being what they are and the israeli state being what it is, there is a tipping point not far off and the two sides will have to figure it out one way or another. if it gets really ugly i do think you'll see state sponsored boycotts though. that's the worst case scenario for all involved. best case is that they find some way of nullifying the orthodox extremists which comprise a minority. you could "both sides" that argument if you wanted to but as far as gaza goes israel should just end the blockade and closely patrol the ins and outs. it's a pressure cooker over there and something will have to give soon.
These boycotts which apparently do nothing, have the pro apartheid country supporters Governments of the World in a panic. Legislations being drawn up to quell these economic protests against the apartheid state are not working. People see the human right abuses in the apartheid state and are rightly appalled. No amount of lies being peddled out by the apartheid state is going to cover up its atrocities committed against the Palestinians.
So BDS all the way.
Long may it continue.
So BDS all the way.
Long may it continue.
Ben & Jerry’s has filed a lawsuit against its parent company Unilever in an effort to block the sale of its Israeli business. It is the latest move in the company’s year-long effort to end sales in the occupied West Bank.
In July 2021 the ice cream manufacturer announced that it would stop selling its product in illegal Israeli settlements. “We have a longstanding partnership with our licensee, who manufactures Ben & Jerry’s ice cream in Israel and distributes it in the region,” it read. “We have been working to change this, and so we have informed our licensee that we will not renew the license agreement when it expires at the end of next year.”
In July 2021 the ice cream manufacturer announced that it would stop selling its product in illegal Israeli settlements. “We have a longstanding partnership with our licensee, who manufactures Ben & Jerry’s ice cream in Israel and distributes it in the region,” it read. “We have been working to change this, and so we have informed our licensee that we will not renew the license agreement when it expires at the end of next year.”
You posting bs videos really going to change my mind…dont think youve learned much in this group
You posting bs videos really going to change my mind…dont think youve learned much in this group
I'm not interested in changing your mind, I'm only here to expose it.
You have to also consider that its primarily the US that is the key interlocutor on Israeli policy - as in, if the US put heavy pressure on the Israeli government to make concessions, it would do just that. Likewise, if the US government cajoled the Israelis into signing a regional agreement (such as the "Abraham Accords" under Trump) they would probably do it (as they did). The fact that the governments of the UAE and Bahrain have just signed agreements to expand relations with Israel, joining Jordan, Egypt, and Kurdistan in past agreements, is a sign the middle east is actually warming to Israel and pivoting away from the Palestine issue as a barrier to better relations. These are all factors why random boycotts will at a minimum be mitigated as ineffective, if not rendered completely futile.
Which makes me wonder how much a forthcoming Saudi deal will undermine the Palestinian cause especially with Iran pushing all the sunni Arab states into bed with Israel, and Hamas being nourished by Iranian support and the PA being slapped down for criticising the Abraham accords.
Bizarre that while the Arab world is properly opening up toward Israel (a lovely thing to see), almost in direct proportion to the frothing at the mouth calls from those who have no regional stake in the conflict are calling for boycotts.
Talk about not reading the room.
yeah I think that's all correct. the other thing is that the us is withdrawing from the middle east but with the exception of Israel and by definition that includes syria and iraq and neighboring arab states.
despite the "opening up" which is really as raoul puts it, a geopolitical shotgun marriage mediated by the US, there is massive internal unrest in israel because the problems in that state will not just go away. the calls aren't coming externally, they're being generated by internal issues and amplified by internal actors and that includes both jewish and arab.
and as most know the arab states have cynically used the palestinian issue for their own gain over the past two or three decades. it's not a surprise that the arabs and israelis will do deals and make agreements because this has been the case for a long time. the abraham accords are a kind of watermark though. point being that the israeli palestinian issue won't go away no matter how good israeli relations with neighbouring arab states are. the problem is internal and only bleeds out externally from time to time.
If boycotting is so pointless and futile, why not allow people and organizations to do it freely?
Obviously they know these boycotts would be on the news, shared a gazillion times on social media, and little by little raise awareness of israeli crimes.
Therefore, boycotting would actually serve its purpose, suggesting otherwise seems to be a very naive view.
Obviously they know these boycotts would be on the news, shared a gazillion times on social media, and little by little raise awareness of israeli crimes.
Therefore, boycotting would actually serve its purpose, suggesting otherwise seems to be a very naive view.
yeah it may prove economically futile but it keeps awareness high and that's why they legislate against it.
With rare exception, the option to boycott is already freely available to a vast majority of those interested in doing so, and yet, it has hasn't moved policy in any meaningful way and has actually served to galvanize more cooperation between Israel and regional Arab nations, which is likely to expand if the Saudis get on board to compliment the UAE, Bahrain, Jordan, and Egypt (and Kurds). The US is obviously already on board and Israeli soft power is only increasing by way of the aforementioned TV shows on places like Netflix, Apple TV etc., which are accessible to a quarter of a billion worldwide. This is why boycotts may be self-satisfying within the echo chamber of those critical of Israel, but will never have any meaningful effect on policy in the real world.
Boycotting 100% matters. It is not just the financial impact but the cultural impact. Anyone who claims it doesn't simply doesn't want you to boycott. It's a way to discourage. If it didn't matter, no one would care as well.
It's sort of like eating vegan. For years people would say you not eating beef would make no difference on the world but look how many restaurants and fast food changes are offering vegan alternatives now.
It's sort of like eating vegan. For years people would say you not eating beef would make no difference on the world but look how many restaurants and fast food changes are offering vegan alternatives now.
that is correct. because you can cite trade agreements israel makes with arab states doesn't mean that the west is not actively trying to push pro-israeli propaganda. it makes the boycott illegal only because it fears that it will have secondary effects down the line that will eventually become financial. the two are interlinked. domestic opinion matters far more than agreements with arab states when the domestic opinion centres we're talking about are the ones which enable israel to make those agreements in the first place, particularly the US and to a lesser extent the UK and the EU.
Going vegan wasn't a boycott since going ethical vegan is only one of the three pillars associated with plant based eating.
As for Israel, instead of boycotts which don't work, those in favor of the Palestinian cause should continue to advocate for them publicly and use their votes in their respective countries to elect politicians who promise to vote differently. That's the only way you will see policy change. Everything else is just social media noise that flatters to deceive.
Hows that any different from boycotting meat? It's the same idea. It's awareness and hurts the economy. The fact its such a big deal and talking point already prove how well it's working.
Because boycott infers doing something based on moral grounds, whereas many Vegans don't eat meat for health reasons (aka self-interest in living longer).
Let's look at the past 5 years or so when BDS has become "a thing" on social media. During that time many of its proponents have come to believe its working and they should therefore double down on their efforts. But when you peel back the onion, during the same 5 years, Israeli policy against Palestinians hasn't changed towards the BDS side, in fact its become harsher. The US has continued to be a staunch Israeli ally, moving its Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and Israeli cooperation with Arab nations has expanded. During the same period, both Israeli governments have basically taken a West Bank annexation policy and Gaza is no better off than the last time Hamas lobbed hundreds rockets at Israel.
Thus, if BDS is helpful and working, why hasn't that been reflected in actual policies that help (not hurt) the Palestinian cause ?
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That's not true. Most vegans I know don't eat it for ethical reasons.
Also you're equating other, unrelated, expansion of Israels dominance to the one effort that does help. It's like saying look at the last decade of activism in the U.S Trump was president, Roe vs Wade revoked and Russia invades Ukraine. They're not related. But I see your bias here.
Some do, some don't. Some don't eat meat for environmental reasons. There are many reasons people do it, not just one.
In this case they are, since the US is the chief arbiter of Israeli policy because of all the money we give them. For what its worth, Dubya, Obama, and Biden have all been to varying degrees pro-Israel as well.
the reason for grassroot activism is because in matters of foreign affairs and some domestic the game is entirely rigged. politicians don't take account of what their voters want in foreign affairs and if they do they never or rarely actualize it. they take account of mass movements and that's about it. the US sees Israel as a national interest. the security and political states, or state, act in concert to undermine activist threats to these interests regardless of how moral or immoral these interests are. that's the truth of the matter.
remember that the US currently occupies a third of syria and is stealing vast quantities of oil on a weekly basis. that operation is run in no small part from israel. that's why it's illegal or very difficult to boycott, not because it has no effect. the are other reasons too obviously but the point is the same and that's national interest which tries to crush movements that seem to threaten it even if that interest is morally repulsive.
The thing you are (I'm sure wilfully) ignoring is that this relative unanimity did not suddenly appear from nowhere, especially in the US and various European countries, which continued to support South Africa until near the very end.
It came about because of repeated and concerted worldwide efforts to change the discourse and to affect policy.
Are the two situations directly equivalent? No, I don't believe so. Will boycott work? Who knows. But I think you're being deliberately obtuse to pretend that multiple Western countries did not, for instance, continue to, at worst, tolerate the Apartheid regime and actually enabled them or labelled the ANC and Mandela as terrorists for instance.
As for your other point about things getting worse for Palestinians....not like again Apartheid South Africa was a progressively improving cakewalk for Black South Africans once the boycott movement got going.
I don't think anyone is in anyway arguing against the right of grass roots activism. We're discussing whether or not it has been effective, as measured by tangible policy changes that have resulted in meaningful improvements in the lives of Palestinians. If we could point to a single example of any of these activities having become game changers for Palestinians then I would agree that it is something that is making a clear difference. The fact that it hasn't even come close to working in this regard is a pretty good indicator that it maybe be time to explore different ideas in how to deal with the conflict.
That's a good point. The US only changed its views because of substate pressures of the politicians Americans voted into office, which eventually led to increased criticism of SA policies (most notably by Reagan).
with the qualification that public will and attitudes do not always translate into policy immediately, and sometimes never, so you have to maintain pressure even if you experience lulls, I don't disagree with the sentiment that other options should also be considered.
Surely the winding down and end of the Cold War was also a major factor?
The BDS debate aside, I have had some personal dealings with Bassam Eid in the past and can confirm he is a fraud and a con-artist.
I couldn't disagree more. I have a 14 year old student who knew nothing about Israel and became aware of the issues in the occupied areas after seeing a tweet about ben and jerry's. Obviously she didn't become an expert but she's aware of what's going on. Multiple this by god knows how many million worldwide and little by little and may move the needle.
When big companies want to, they break way outside any echo chamber.
Boycotts will raise awareness, and then people might vote accordingly. If people are unaware of an issue, how can they vote on that issue?
Likewise there are millions watching Israeli TV shows on Netflix getting a different view than your student. If the intent of boycotts was to educate a small number of kids then they may or may not do so. If the intent is to actually change the lives of Palestinians for the better, then they aren't even coming close.
OK, so are there any laws in western countries prohibiting those shows like there are laws prohibiting boycotts on israel?
Out of curiosity, would boycott Russian or Saudi Arabian products? Would you support that?
Lets expose the weakness of the palestinan struggle by sharing vids of someone who works closely with the Israeli state and is an outspoken critic of the main palestinian parties. yep thats convinced me.
The conflict isnt some complex maths puzzle that needs sophisticated solutions. The Israelis as an occupying force either out of choice / or are forced to should respect international law and conventions on treating civilian populations. That's the solution. If they arent going to and no one wants to force them to, then at least acknowledging that is also part of a solution. Everything else is noise.
Your lack of self awareness is really something.
You're right, it isn't that complex. The Palestinian struggle, by it's own admission, is predicated on the removal of the Jewish state while making it's so called leaders rich, and the Israeli's aren't rolling over. Everything else is noise.
Will you ever reach the conclusion, via your own self awareness, that both you and The Corinthian's infantile insults actually empower me? You resort to them as quick as lager turns to piss, which is the big big giveaway.
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You're the glaston of this thread, no one takes you seriously, you've been multiple times in the meme thread. Why would anyone still waste their time trying to have an actual conversation with you? You live in a bubble of israel is righteous and palestinians bring all the pain on to themselves, you apparently live surrounded by the most ridiculous propaganda videos on youtube and then you post about echo chambers? I'll just repeat myself, your lack of self awareness is something to behold.