Israel launches air strikes on Gaza

Most of the thousands of short range rockets fired at Israel were launched from the Notrthern tip of the GS, near the town of Beit-Hanoun, which means that it doesn't take full control of the entire GS in order to stop the fire.

You're of course "employed in making a rhetorical/political point rather than a factual one", so you come up with this pompous shit and moronic analogy to an occupying force facing guerilla warfare in Iraq.

Actually, the point is very basic and simple...


It is almost impossible for conventional forces to prevent all incidents of guerilla/resistance action. No maps or remarks on your part can disguise this fact.

So to castigate the Palestinian authorities, who have far less resources/control than others in other arenas, for their failure to completely shut-down the operations of others is just stupid (or politically motivated.)

Even if there is a desire to close down a particular nexus of action the forces still have to get in there and seize control and maintain - I didn't notice the Israeli invasion forces being 100% successful during their action either btw.
 
One of the major problems seems to have been that although all sensible people have insisted upon a 2 state solution for many decades - Israel has done everything in it's power over that time to ensure such a viable solution never comes to pass.

The '80's invasion of Lebanon has been unopposedly ascribed to the need for Israel to avoid growing international agreement to the PLO's proposal for a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Israel went to war because it did not like the particular form of a likely peace.

It appears that the group of "sensible people" does not include the Palestinians, leaving you and Amnesty International on your own.

The PLO was born with a committment to the destruction of Israel and in the early days of the organization, they would consider nothing other than that immediate objective. The October 1973 Yom Kippur War convinced the Arabs that they would not be able to destroy Israel through military action within its post-1967 boundaries. Thus they embarked upon a new three-stage strategy for Israel's destruction, embodied in the Palestine Liberation Organization's 1974 Political Program, commonly known as the "Phased Plan", adopted at the 12th Session of the Palestinian National Council, held in Cairo, June 9, 1974.

The plan has three main articles:

Through the "armed struggle" (i.e., terrorism), to establish an "independent combatant national authority" over any territory that is "liberated" from Israeli rule. (Article 2)


To continue the struggle against Israel, using the territory of the national authority as a base of operations. (Article 4)


To provoke an all-out war in which Israel's Arab neighbors destroy it entirely ("liberate all Palestinian territory"). (Article 8)
The Phased Plan remains the basis of PLO actions, even in the era of the Oslo Accords. Speaking on September 1, 1993, just after the announcement of the 1993 Israel-PLO agreement, PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat announced on Radio Monte Carlo that the Oslo agreement:

...will be a basis for an independent Palestinian state in accordance with the Palestine National Council resolution issued in 1974... The PNC resolution issued in 1974 calls for the establishment of a national authority on any part of Palestinian soil from which Israel withdraws or which is liberated.


In addition to the action plan against Israel, Articles 5-6 of the PLO plan call for a revolution in Jordan to establish a new Jordanian regime which will ally itself with the Palestinian National Authority. Historically, Jordan comprised the bulk of the territory of Palestine, and a majority of its residents are of Palestinian origin. The PLO has never recognized the legitimacy of the Kingdom of Jordan as a state independent of Palestine.
 
It appears that the group of "sensible people" does not include the Palestinians, leaving you and Amnesty International on your own.

The PLO was born with a committment to the destruction of Israel and in the early days of the organization, they would consider nothing other than that immediate objective. The October 1973 Yom Kippur War convinced the Arabs that they would not be able to destroy Israel through military action within its post-1967 boundaries. Thus they embarked upon a new three-stage strategy for Israel's destruction, embodied in the Palestine Liberation Organization's 1974 Political Program, commonly known as the "Phased Plan", adopted at the 12th Session of the Palestinian National Council, held in Cairo, June 9, 1974.

The plan has three main articles:

Through the "armed struggle" (i.e., terrorism), to establish an "independent combatant national authority" over any territory that is "liberated" from Israeli rule. (Article 2)


To continue the struggle against Israel, using the territory of the national authority as a base of operations. (Article 4)


To provoke an all-out war in which Israel's Arab neighbors destroy it entirely ("liberate all Palestinian territory"). (Article 8)
The Phased Plan remains the basis of PLO actions, even in the era of the Oslo Accords. Speaking on September 1, 1993, just after the announcement of the 1993 Israel-PLO agreement, PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat announced on Radio Monte Carlo that the Oslo agreement:

...will be a basis for an independent Palestinian state in accordance with the Palestine National Council resolution issued in 1974... The PNC resolution issued in 1974 calls for the establishment of a national authority on any part of Palestinian soil from which Israel withdraws or which is liberated.


In addition to the action plan against Israel, Articles 5-6 of the PLO plan call for a revolution in Jordan to establish a new Jordanian regime which will ally itself with the Palestinian National Authority. Historically, Jordan comprised the bulk of the territory of Palestine, and a majority of its residents are of Palestinian origin. The PLO has never recognized the legitimacy of the Kingdom of Jordan as a state independent of Palestine.

Actually, if you pay attention to the relevant text (as quoted a year or so back) you'll notice exactly what I state.

The PLO had begun to mobilise strong international consensus behind a 2 state solution - Israel refused to countenance the notion of a Palestinian state (yet you still complain about others not wanting an Israeli state) - to make sure that a 2 state solution did not arise, Israel went to war to ensure that the situation was polarised to the maximum extent and their opponents became radicalised thus reducing international support. They acheived their objective - peace was delayed by a score of years or more.
 
The map IS the facts, ...

Nope - the FACT is that guerilla action is hard to suppress - just how hard is this for you to grasp?




If periods of Israel's history are uncomfortable for you to contemplate then I can understand why you wish to ignore them. Unfortunately this means that your understanding of Israel's and it's neighbours' motivations and justifications will be seriously flawed.

If the analysis of the 80's Lebanon invasion is so flawed then how come, given the very active pro-Israel comment community, no-one has contested that analysis?

Edit ... The relevant book analysing Israel's motivations in invading Lebanon is :
Dilemmas of Security: Politics, Strategy, and the Israeli Experience in Lebanon by Avner Yaniv
 
Why Palestinians should never recognize Israel’s “right to exist”

Article from "The Palestine Times"
Published Date: 04/04/2007

"Israel exists. And the whole world, including the Palestinian people, recognizes the reality of that existence. However, the mere existence of a State, or any other political entity, doesn’t confer legitimacy, especially moral legitimacy. This is why the concept of “moral legitimacy,” otherwise dubbed as “right to exist,” doesn’t exist in international law.

Indeed, if the mere existence of a State confers moral legitimacy, then Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa, to mention just two examples, should have acquired moral legitimacy and “a right to exist.”

But Israel is not a State like any other State. Israel is even more than a fruit of an adulterous relationship; it is an enduring crime against humanity, just as Nazi Germany was a crime against humanity.

Israel has been a criminal entity from day-1, since its very existence came at the expense of the existence of another people, another nation, namely the Palestinian people.

Israel is a country stolen at gunpoint from its rightful proprietors, the Palestinian people. Israeli towns and villages were built on the ruins of Palestinian towns and villages. Israelis themselves live on land that belongs to other people and many Israelis, even today, continue to live in homes wrested from their Palestinian owners. This is cardinal theft probably unprecedented in the annals of history; it is an act of rape, a continuous act of rape, no matter how numerous the cheerleaders who celebrate the legitimacy and morality of their criminal act.

In fact, Israel can be compared to a sick man who murders an innocent person in order to use his heart and other vital organs for transplant. Does such a person have a right to exist? Israel not only has stolen the victim’s organs, but also seized his property, and then denied having done any wrong.

It is true, history is often unkind. However, Israel’s cruelty is not a one-time occurrence. Israel didn’t stop at carrying out genocidal ethnic cleansing in 1948-1949 during which the bulk of the Palestinians were expelled to the four corners of the world. In fact, Israel never ceased murdering Palestinians, stealing their land, destroying their homes and narrowing their horizons. Even today, Israel’s Nazi-like approach toward its victims negates any moral legitimacy Israel may claim to have.

In short, the Palestinian people and their leadership must never agree to recognize “Israel’s right to exist” because the ZionistState simply has no moral right to exist, since this existence happens to be at the expense of another people’s existence.

Indeed, a recognition by the Palestinians of “Israel’s right to existence” implies a whole host of “acknowledgements,” including the following: that the extirpation of the Palestinian people from their homeland from time immemorial was right and justified; that the dozens of genocidal massacres of Palestinians perpetrated by Judeo-Nazis forces, such as Dir Yasin, Tantura, Dawayima, Kfar Qassem, Qibya, Jenin, etc., were also right and justified; and that the mostly Russian and East European Khazara Ashkenazi supremacists belonged to Palestine and Palestine belonged to them, whereas the real natives of the land, the Palestinians, are “Arab” squatters, while the real squatters, the Judeo-Nazi settlers, are the real natives of the land.

In other words, in order to recognize “Israel’s right to exist,” the Palestinians would have to completely and unconditionally adopt the Zionist narrative from A-Z and transform themselves into “Muslim and Christian Zionists.”

More to the point, Israel is actually demanding that we recognize that Israel is a “Jewish State” that belongs to “all the Jews in the world,” or, as one Israeli leader put it recently, that Israel is “a State of the Jews, by the Jews and for the Jews.”

In plain English, Israel wants the Palestinian people, whose patrimony it has stolen and whose national survival it has been seeking to end, to recognize that the Zionist State has the right to be racist, a thief, a murderer and a liar; racist, because the entire Israeli political and judicial infrastructure is based on the supposition that Jews are entitled to more rights and privileges than non-Jews, including those who are Israeli citizens. A thief because Israel stole in broad daylight Palestine from its legitimate proprietors whom it expelled to the four winds and those victims not expelled came to be viewed as “absentees” for the purpose of “legalizing” the theft of their land and property; a murderer because Israel continues to murder Palestinians for daring to oppose the Zionist narrative and for clinging to their homeland.

And to safeguard the colossal crime, Israel resorted to adopting the modus operandi of mendacity and half-truths, benefiting from the huge, Jewish-controlled and Jewish-influenced media throughout the Western world.

In light of these facts, any recognition by the Palestinian people, especially Hamas, of “Israel’s right to exist” will be an act of immense stupidity bordering on moral suicide since such a recognition would imply an acknowledgement that not only does Israel have a right to exist but also that all actions and crimes and behaviour Israel has resorted to safeguard and preserve that right were perfectly and morally right.

Recognition of Israel’s right to exist would thus be analogical to the Jews recognizing that the holocaust was morally justified and that the incineration of people in gas chambers was a moral act.

There is no doubt that Israel is a satanic creature, an evil entity not unlike the Third Reich. But it dos exist and is politically and militarily strong, very much as Nazi Germany once was. But Israel has no moral legitimacy whatsoever because oppression can’t be legitimate, neither according to the rule of man nor the laws of God.

We are not suggesting that Palestinians shouldn’t deal with the reality of Israel. However, dealing with Israel, even negotiating with it, is one thing, and conferring moral legitimacy on it is an entirely different thing."


http://www.ptimes.org/main/default.aspx

---

The writer of the article constantly uses the Nazi analogy. This is at least strange considering the obvious admiration of some groups for Hitler and his policy towards the Jews.

hezbollah_hamas_nazi_salute.jpg


lebanese-nazis.jpg



islam_god_bless_hitler01.jpg
 
An occupation centres on whether or not the land in question is a souvereign country - such as Iraq.

There was no Palestine, in fact, in 1967, Gaza was under the questionable authority of Eygpt (who were about to attack Israel) and the West Bank was under the rule of Jordan, who banned any Jews from going anywhere near Jerusalem.

I assume you never knew this?

So because Palestine did no exist as a sovereign state on a map, then it's not illegal for Israel to occupy whatever part of it it wants? This is ridiculous. This is really a pathetic excuse for continuing something which has been deemed and condemned as illegal by the whole world since 1967, the longest illegal military occupation in recent history. Your attemtps to make this seem less illegal is really embarrassing. Just because Palestine didn't have a capital, and was not formally considered as a state, Israel could occupy their land without worrying about the legality of it?

Is the UNSC resolution 242 still in effect? Do the rest of the world still consider the occupation illegal? If YES, then the occupation IS illegal. Until the UN passes another resolution saying it isn't, the occupation remains illegal and must be ended.
 
What about Palestinian security, don't they have a basic right?

You're comically out of it if you're being serious here.

Didn't the Germans have a basic right to elect Hitler and make good on his 'kill all Jews and invade the world' policies?

'Basic rights' include a right of a country to not be constantly attacked by its neighbors who are given a free pass by bigots and idiots thoughout the world because of the nationality/religion of the people they are targeting.

The lack of media coverage in the west (especially in Europe) until the IDF responded speaks volumes to the vile prejudice that play pretends like it is a human rights crusade.

Then the old fashioned 'moral equivalence' crap gets rolled out to condemn those who just don't want months worth of nutjobs who are trying to murder them all shooting rockets to try to kill as many civilians as possible.

"It's all terror" is the biggest cop out in the history of mankind.
 
So because Palestine did no exist as a sovereign state on a map, then it's not illegal for Israel to occupy whatever part of it it wants? This is ridiculous. This is really a pathetic excuse for continuing something which has been deemed and condemned as illegal by the whole world since 1967, the longest illegal military occupation in recent history. Your attemtps to make this seem less illegal is really embarrassing. Just because Palestine didn't have a capital, and was not formally considered as a state, Israel could occupy their land without worrying about the legality of it?

Is the UNSC resolution 242 still in effect? Do the rest of the world still consider the occupation illegal? If YES, then the occupation IS illegal. Until the UN passes another resolution saying it isn't, the occupation remains illegal and must be ended.


Palestine and palestinians isn't even mentioned in UN242.

I'm going to enjoy educating you.
 
Hehehe, why do all internet threads end up with nazi comparisons?

haha, makes you wonder what comparative examples we would use if the have Nazis never existed.

but most of all what documentaries would we watch all the time every day non stop if there was no WW2 ?? :rolleyes:
 
You're comically out of it if you're being serious here.

Didn't the Germans have a basic right to elect Hitler and make good on his 'kill all Jews and invade the world' policies?

'Basic rights' include a right of a country to not be constantly attacked by its neighbors who are given a free pass by bigots and idiots throughout the world because of the nationality/religion of the people they are targeting.

The lack of media coverage in the west (especially in Europe) until the IDF responded speaks volumes to the vile prejudice that play pretends like it is a human rights crusade.

Then the old fashioned 'moral equivalence' crap gets rolled out to condemn those who just don't want months worth of nutjobs who are trying to murder them all shooting rockets to try to kill as many civilians as possible.

"It's all terror" is the biggest cop out in the history of mankind.

As I recall reading an article (could be mistaken) 'unfortunately' there has been a couple of people killed in Israel by rockets fired by Palestinians since last November. Depending on your political, religious, ethnic bias you can either say the militants don't have a clue or the threat is exaggerated - I don't know. Check that with Palestinian casualties in similar time span - now where is the condemnation for all the innocents killed on the Palestinian side, do they not matter?

Going onto basic rights, I suppose Palestinians also have a basic right to security just as Israel, which is impacted daily by Israeli military policies that restricts movement, arrests, isolation, harassment of civilians, including children and students to an education, regular curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, electric fences, walls and destruction of infrastructure is justified without question.

And yet, Israel is praised for its act allowing some food to be transferred who ironically have gone hungry because of the campaign to punish Palestinians for electing Hamas.
 
Palestine and palestinians isn't even mentioned in UN242.

I'm going to enjoy educating you.

:lol:

Did Canadians live in those territories prior to Israel's invasion and capture of them or Palestinians?

come on, don't be that irrational, you know exactly what the resolution pertains to and it is about the illegally occupied territories by Israel, asking for complete withdrawal.
 
:lol:

Did Canadians live in those territories prior to Israel's invasion and capture of them or Palestinians?

come on, don't be that irrational, you know exactly what the resolution pertains to and it is about the illegally occupied territories by Israel, asking for complete withdrawal.

Geddy Lee's a Canadian Jew - ask him where his big nosed ancestors are from.

The Jews have lived, in vary numbers, through the entire timeline of the land - the Arabs are only a recent addition.

Please read this if your intersted in only fact..

http://www.mythsandfacts.com/Conflict/10/resolution_242.htm
 
You lot can argue and debate all you want BUT the truth is centuries after we have all died, this conflict will still be unresolved.The fact of the matter is both sides hatred of one another is mutual.
 
Geddy Lee's a Canadian Jew - ask him where his big nosed ancestors are from.

The Jews have lived, in vary numbers, through the entire timeline of the land - the Arabs are only a recent addition.

Please read this if your intersted in only fact..

http://www.mythsandfacts.com/Conflict/10/resolution_242.htm

Are you going back to the time of Noah and Moses to justify the illegal occupation?

UN 242 states that the occupation is illegal and that's what the rest of the world believe as well. Jews used to live in huge numbers in Iran as well, in fact it is home to over 25,000 jews atm, would that justify the capture of some parts of Iran If Israel decide to do that just because Jews used to live there in large numbers? Of course not.

Capturing some land and annexing it is Illegal this day and age. Israel must withdraw from the illegally occupied territories, period.
 
The United Nations, and the Resolutons it passes, are imperfect tools for an imperfect world.

International law should not be looked at as the be-all-and-end-all of society, striving towards a utopian goal of world peace.

To use the words of one jurist, international law is a 'gentle civilser of nations'. It is the only way that nations can converse with one another on a global scale without resorting to violence.

The point I am making is that it is easy to get caught up with the semantics of UN Resolutions regarding Israel and Palestine, treating them as the definitive voice on the issue.

I approach the matter differently. I believe that there should be a two-state solution, because that would be the 'right' thing to do - morally right according to my set of values, beliefs etc. Therefore regardless of how international law treats the presence of Israeli troops in the West Bank, I still feel that their presence in the West Bank, or at least the vast majority of it, is not sustainable.

Israel could, and would survive without granting the Palestinians a state - you need only look at Turkey and the Kurdish diaspora to see that. But I am of the belief that if a group of people wishes to rule themselves, and take over their own affairs, then they should be given a chance to do so.
 
Are you going back to the time of Noah and Moses to justify the illegal occupation?

UN 242 states that the occupation is illegal and that's what the rest of the world believe as well. Jews used to live in huge numbers in Iran as well, in fact it is home to over 25,000 jews atm, would that justify the capture of some parts of Iran If Israel decide to do that just because Jews used to live there in large numbers? Of course not.

Capturing some land and annexing it is Illegal this day and age. Israel must withdraw from the illegally occupied territories, period.

It is illegal but who gives a shit- look whats happening in the south Serbian province of Kosovo. They are even going to get their independence soon. I guess sometime you just have to be friends with the Americans and then you can get what you want (and get away with it).
 
Is Geddy Lee really one of our own?

Yep.

From Wikipedia..

Lee's parents were Jewish refugees from Poland who had been survivors of Nazi concentration camps Dachau and Bergen-Belsen during World War II. In 2004, Canadian Jewish News featured Lee's reflections on his mother's experiences as a refugee, and of his own Jewish heritage. [6] Lee's stage name, Geddy, was inspired by his mother's heavily-accented pronunciation of his given first name, Gary.[citation needed]

Probably explains why he's such an outstanding bass player...claws are far moe fecking accurate than human hands.
 
I believe that there should be a two-state solution, .


There is - Israel and Jordan.

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate."

- Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1970
 
There is - Israel and Jordan.

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate."

- Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1970

So the West Bank and Gaza should become part of Israel, and all Palestinian refugees should return to Jordan?

You may need to clarify your position here
 
So the West Bank and Gaza should become part of Israel, and all Palestinian refugees should return to Jordan?

You may need to clarify your position here

Forget Gaza - that's gone and to the Palestinians can broker a deal with Egypt (who started this mess).

The west bank - Judea (where the term Jew comes from) - should become part of Israel as promised by the League of Nations.

Compensation should be paid to the 800,000 jews who were ethnically cleansed from Arab states as stated in UN242

Hope that clarifies things.
 
Forget Gaza - that's gone and to the Palestinians can broker a deal with Egypt (who started this mess).

The west bank - Judea (where the term Jew comes from) - should become part of Israel as promised by the League of Nations.

Compensation should be paid to the 800,000 jews who were ethnically cleansed from Arab states as stated in UN242

Hope that clarifies things.

Yes, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you a couple more questions?

Would (or could) Gaza become the Palestinian state?

What would happen to the Palestinians living in the West Bank now? Would they become Israeli citizens?

Who would pay the compensation? The International Community/UN, or the Arab States involved themselves?
 
Yes, thank you. Do you mind if I ask you a couple more questions?

Would (or could) Gaza become the Palestinian state?

What would happen to the Palestinians living in the West Bank now? Would they become Israeli citizens?

Who would pay the compensation? The International Community/UN, or the Arab States involved themselves?

These are good questions, let me direct you to this website.

http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/DefaultEng.html
 
Yep.

From Wikipedia..

Lee's parents were Jewish refugees from Poland who had been survivors of Nazi concentration camps Dachau and Bergen-Belsen during World War II. In 2004, Canadian Jewish News featured Lee's reflections on his mother's experiences as a refugee, and of his own Jewish heritage. [6] Lee's stage name, Geddy, was inspired by his mother's heavily-accented pronunciation of his given first name, Gary.[citation needed]

Probably explains why he's such an outstanding bass player...claws are far moe fecking accurate than human hands.

18087.jpg
Basssfsafsafsaf.jpg
 
:lol:

Did Canadians live in those territories prior to Israel's invasion and capture of them or Palestinians?

come on, don't be that irrational, you know exactly what the resolution pertains to and it is about the illegally occupied territories by Israel, asking for complete withdrawal.

So you're seriously arguing that the name-changers were sent to live in Israel where the UN promised to protect them and never again attempt to systematically murder them all, only for the UN to then later decide "oh, nevermind...feck off and die you big nosed cnuts"?

Brilliant.
 
So you're seriously arguing that the name-changers were sent to live in Israel where the UN promised to protect them and never again attempt to systematically murder them all, only for the UN to then later decide "oh, nevermind...feck off and die you big nosed cnuts"?

Brilliant.

Not sure what you're on about but I think you misunderstood me, I was talking about the territories Israel captured after 1967 not about Israel's creation.
 
It is illegal but who gives a shit- look whats happening in the south Serbian province of Kosovo. They are even going to get their independence soon. I guess sometime you just have to be friends with the Americans and then you can get what you want (and get away with it).

If you were a Palestinian living under the illegal occupation you WOULD give a shit, and if you believe they are humans just as Israelis, you would give a shit as well.
 
Not sure what you're on about but I think you misunderstood me, I was talking about the territories Israel captured after 1967 not about Israel's creation.

Why do you think they still have those territories captured "during" 1967 and other attempts at utter genocide by their neighbors?

Just give us your best guess as to why.