Israel launches air strikes on Gaza

holyland red said:
Antisemitic sentiments have been expressed on the board, and not always resulted in bans. The thing is the the when the individuals in question are warned, and continue posting one has to realise that future posts that are Israel-related most probably are influenced by the sentiments even if the poster does not refer to Jews as the Spielbergs.
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Would you call me anti-semitic then? I've expressed extremely crictical views on Israel before, and have been told off for it by various posters, including yourself. I've been warned at least once, though possibly it was for arguing on the other side of the debate.

holyland red said:
Antisemitism on this board deserves ridicule and that's exactly what it gets. Personally, I have never reported any antisemitic comment to the mods. I just think that overall rdiculing antisemitism unless it involves physical attacks is dangerous. Words are more dangerous etc...
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I don't think antisemitism deserves ridicule - it deserves banning. My definition of antisemitism consists of threats and racist views expressed seriously, not some harebrained theory about how baby-eating blood drinking Jews run the world through a massive hedge fund specialising in buying entire countries. I think the reaction to the latter should be to point and laugh, rather than to ban it. Banning something such as this gives it credence - why would you ban something unless you object to it seriously?
 
jasonrh said:
Its all histrionics apparently. Do your own research if you don't believe me that these name-changing, et al, people aren't out there.

Again, you want it to be inconsequential and irrelevant, and me to be hysterical for pointing it out and mocking it, when it is actually indicative of what appears to be a growing trend in your part of the world.

Easier to write it off and shoot the messenger than admit there is a problem.
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Oh, I remember some of what you refer to.

I just think it's worthy of mocking, and not by referring to it as anti-semitism, which elevates it to something serious. That's why it's inconsequential.

If you disagree with me, prove what you say, and why it was antisemitic and allowed to spin out of control.
 
How do I "prove" my disagreement with your opinion that crap such as garbage about name-changing Jews controlling the world and blowing up the World Trade Center (to stab their monied Republican friends in the back) is anti-semitic?

You seem desperate to not allow that label to be used, when for many of us it is plainly what has gone on in many instances on the Caf in the past.

As for letting it get out of control, best I not go there. I found some of the 'moderating' during the conflict last summer to be shocking, but to dig back into it an analyse it piece by piece would cause more harm than good.

This is especially the case since you would just (perhaps even hysterically) deny that saying such things is even anti-semitic in the first instance.

You seem to have taken the ludicrous position that the anti-semitism that is growing in Europe (and is seen on this board) isn't actually anti-semitism, and when it is it doesn't matter because those expressing it don't have enough power to make it really count.
 
jasonrh said:
How do I "prove" my disagreement with your opinion that crap such as garbage about name-changing Jews controlling the world and blowing up the World Trade Center (to stab their monied Republican friends in the back) is anti-semitic?

You seem desperate to not allow that label to be used, when for many of us it is plainly what has gone on in many instances on the Caf in the past.

As for letting it get out of control, best I not go there. I found some of the 'moderating' during the conflict last summer to be shocking, but to dig back into it an analyse it piece by piece would cause more harm than good.

This is especially the case since you would just (perhaps even hysterically) deny that saying such things is even anti-semitic in the first instance.
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The day I get desperate about anything that's said here is the day I top myself.

Tell you what - let's pose the question a different way, since you don't feel the need to back up your assertions.

Why do you think crapdoodle like Jewish cabals are antisemitic?

jasonrh said:
You seem to have taken the ludicrous position that the anti-semitism that is growing in Europe (and is seen on this board) isn't actually anti-semitism, and when it is it doesn't matter because those expressing it don't have enough power to make it really count.
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See, that's where your logic breaks down.

My position is that the crap on this board does not tell you about growing anti-semitism in Europe (which is real, although not as prevalent as you seem to think), and that the inferences that you are drawing from the examples you cite are overblown and exaggerated.
 
I've not seen much anti-semitism on this board. . . unless crisitism of Israel constitutes as anti-semitism. You're sounding like scousers, for feck's sake. Get a fecking grip.
 
Of course he's a feckwit, as antisemite characters usually are. I don't know whether he's been banned from the CE forum since, but did share his wisdom with the rest of us after this particular thread.
Mind you, he has always maintained that he is only anti-Israeli and not antisemitic, which goes to show that the argument rightly raised by some is used to disguise the true sentiments of others.
In the words of this character "not eating bagels or watching Spielberg's movies does not make one antisemitic".
 
Would you call me anti-semitic then? I've expressed extremely crictical views on Israel before, and have been told off for it by various posters, including yourself. I've been warned at least once, though possibly it was for arguing on the other side of the debate.

No, you aren't. Just as my debates with you do not mean that I can't accept criticism of Israel when the facts used are right.

I don't think antisemitism deserves ridicule - it deserves banning. My definition of antisemitism consists of threats and racist views expressed seriously, not some harebrained theory about how baby-eating blood drinking Jews run the world through a massive hedge fund specialising in buying entire countries. I think the reaction to the latter should be to point and laugh, rather than to ban it. Banning something such as this gives it credence - why would you ban something unless you object to it seriously?

protocols-elders-of-zion.jpg
 
spinoza said:
My definition of antisemitism consists of threats and racist views expressed seriously, not some harebrained theory about how baby-eating blood drinking Jews run the world through a massive hedge fund specialising in buying entire countries. I think the reaction to the latter should be to point and laugh, rather than to ban it. Banning something such as this gives it credence - why would you ban something unless you object to it seriously?
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On this point I feel I need to express my agreement with holyland (earthquakes, comets, 2-day long thunderstorms and other portents).

The types of stories which you lampoon by your amusing turns of phrase have been used in the past (and still are to some extent) to justify or stir-up anti-Jewish feeling. They constitute the very groundwork upon which such anti-semitism as you identify may come into existence and develop in alarming forms. I'd say that such stories are therefore anti-Semitic.


However, it may be a valid subject for debate as to whether ridicule (combined with debunking I'd hope) is a better form of response than banning. Perhaps the first, with warnings, followed by the latter if the hint is not talken?
 
Back to our ME expert Mozza...

Mozza said:
How are they supposed to police their territory whilst Israel blocks all funds, all goods and make life impossible?
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Seems like Hamas was capable of controlling its territory after all. Did it really keep a ceasefire "for 20 months" then?

Mozza said:
There recent clashes have proven that neither side is powerful enough to hold power in Palestine, you think Hamas would have entered a unity Government if it was powerful enough to hold power on its own?
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Oh, really? The words "wiped the floor" come to mind when trying to describe the Gaza fighting.

Mozza said:
A limited fight in Hamas stronghold proves nothing, your grasping at straws here to excuse Israel.
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:rolleyes:
 
holyland red said:
Back to our ME expert Mozza...



Seems like Hamas was capable of controlling its territory after all. Did it really keep a ceasefire "for 20 months" then?



Oh, really? The words "wiped the floor" come to mind when trying to describe the Gaza fighting.



:rolleyes:
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Thats it Gaza, as you well know that is its power base so they are going to make gains there, it could well be that Palestine has separate powers governing east and west after this.
 
Mozza said:
How are they supposed to police their territory whilst Israel blocks all funds, all goods and make life impossible?
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Feedingseagulls said:
This seems rather disingenuous on your part - the fact that Hamas 'wiped the floor' with its opposition (to quote a later post of yours) does nothing to suggest Hamas could prevent all attacks on Israel.

After all, the alliance forces 'wiped the floor' with the Iraqi resistance during the illegal invasion (and arguably continue to do so during the occupation) yet their opponents regularly cause death and injury through their attacks.

To assume that the occupying/controlling power's control is absolute could only be employed in making a rhetorical/political point rather than a factual one.
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Mozza, FS, I thought you'd find this interesting:

Top Hamas official: We will not be 'protector' of Israeli border

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar said Wednesday that his group wants to maintain calm in the Gaza Strip, but will not be the "protector" of the Israeli border with Gaza.

Last week, Hamas seized control of the coastal territory after five days of violent clashes with the rival Fatah party.

Zahar said the group is open to a cease-fire with Israel if the Israel Defense Forces halts its military operations in Gaza and the West Bank.

He that Hamas is capable of halting the frequent rocket attacks on Israel out of Gaza. "But nobody will be the protector of the Israeli border."
 
holyland red said:
Mozza, FS, I thought you'd find this interesting:

Top Hamas official: We will not be 'protector' of Israeli border

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar said Wednesday that his group wants to maintain calm in the Gaza Strip, but will not be the "protector" of the Israeli border with Gaza.

Last week, Hamas seized control of the coastal territory after five days of violent clashes with the rival Fatah party.

Zahar said the group is open to a cease-fire with Israel if the Israel Defense Forces halts its military operations in Gaza and the West Bank.

He that Hamas is capable of halting the frequent rocket attacks on Israel out of Gaza. "But nobody will be the protector of the Israeli border."
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"If they are going to attack the Palestinian people in the West Bank or Gaza, the people are going to defend themselves," he said. "Nobody will be a protector of the Israeli border ... We are not a protector of the Israelis. We are protecting our people."

The full quote, is Israel going to continue killing Palestinians?
 
Mozza said:
"If they are going to attack the Palestinian people in the West Bank or Gaza, the people are going to defend themselves," he said. "Nobody will be a protector of the Israeli border ... We are not a protector of the Israelis. We are protecting our people."

The full quote, is Israel going to continue killing Palestinians?
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I think so. As long as the Palesitinians do not agree to live peacefully next to Israel they are going to continue suffering.

However, the issue we addressed in this thread (quoted posts ) was Hamas' control over rocket-launching from Palestinian territory and what you called "a ceasfire".
 
Back to the article I got the quote / from

There has been a drop in rocket fire at Israel since Hamas seized power last Thursday, though one rocket landed in Israel on Wednesday, causing no injuries, the army said. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Seems they have an immediate effect, it is still not realistic to expect them to stop every attack, Israel couldn't stop Hezbollah with its full army, expecting Hamass to completely stop attacks is unrealistic.
 
5 Qassams hit Sderot

Two people lightly wounded by rocket that slams into residential building in Qassam-stricken town, handful of people treated for shock; attack cuts off power supplies to nearby kibbutz

Shmulik Hadad Published: 06.20.07, 21:51 / Israel News

Five Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip by gunmen landed on Wednesday evening in Sderot, lightly injuring two people and damaging a residential building. A handful of people were treated for shock.

One rocket hit an electric pole cutting power supplies to a nearby kibbutz. The remaining rockets landed in open fields.
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You've expressed ignorance of ME affairs in this thread, and an update on your 5-day statistics further proves that.

As the Hamas leader said, it's not that they can't stop the rockets, they just don't want to.

Hamas. ceasefire.
 
holyland red said:
5 Qassams hit Sderot

Two people lightly wounded by rocket that slams into residential building in Qassam-stricken town, handful of people treated for shock; attack cuts off power supplies to nearby kibbutz

Shmulik Hadad Published: 06.20.07, 21:51 / Israel News

Five Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip by gunmen landed on Wednesday evening in Sderot, lightly injuring two people and damaging a residential building. A handful of people were treated for shock.

One rocket hit an electric pole cutting power supplies to a nearby kibbutz. The remaining rockets landed in open fields.
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You've expressed ignorance of ME affairs in this thread, and an update on your 5-day statistics further proves that.

As the Hamas leader said, it's not that they can't stop the rockets, they just don't want to.

Hamas. ceasefire.
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You think they can genuinely stop every attack into Israel when Israel itself can't when it was occupier?

Hamas did hold a ceasefire, in return Israel continued it killings and starvation of the Palestinian people, no people on earth would forever suffer in those conditions.
 
You think they can genuinely stop every attack into Israel when Israel itself can't when it was occupier?

I'm afraid we're gonna find out pretty soon whether Israel can stop the attacks.

Hamas did hold a ceasefire, in return Israel continued it killings and starvation of the Palestinian people, no people on earth would forever suffer in those conditions.

It would be wiser to stop the tiresome rhetoric about starvation. Israel has made plenty of mistakes, but there is no hunger in the PA. If it ever comes to that, I suggest the Hamas use the tunnels to smuggle food rather than weapons from Egypt.
 
holyland red said:
You think they can genuinely stop every attack into Israel when Israel itself can't when it was occupier?

I'm afraid we're gonna find out pretty soon whether Israel can stop the attacks.

Hamas did hold a ceasefire, in return Israel continued it killings and starvation of the Palestinian people, no people on earth would forever suffer in those conditions.

It would be wiser to stop the tiresome rhetoric about starvation. Israel has made plenty of mistakes, but there is no hunger in the PA. If it ever comes to that, I suggest the Hamas use the tunnels to smuggle food rather than weapons from Egypt.
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Dov Weisglass, adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, during an official meeting in February 2006: "It's like a meeting with a dietitian. We need to make the Palestinians lose weight, but not to starve to death."
 
Mozza said:
Dov Weisglass, adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, during an official meeting in February 2006: "It's like a meeting with a dietitian. We need to make the Palestinians lose weight, but not to starve to death."
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You're harping about the Palestinians' democratic choice, and they should definitely be allowed one. However, with that comes the part of accountability, and they should be held responsible for their choice in an extremist party calling for destruction of a neighbouring state.

Fat Weisglass was right to say (in his own graphical words) that the PA should feel the pressure, but care has to be taken that it doesn't collapse.
 
holyland red said:
You're harping about the Palestinians' democratic choice, and they should definitely be allowed one. However, with that comes the part of accountability, and they should be held responsible for their choice in an extremist party calling for destruction of a neighbouring state.

Fat Weisglass was right to say (in his own graphical words) that the PA should feel the pressure, but care has to be taken that it doesn't collapse.
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An 'extremist' party that had held a unilateral ceasefire with Israel.

I'm well aware that Israel wished to weaken Fatah, a weak negotiation partner means talks can be held of indefinitely, you went too far however when you pushed the people to Hamas and now your scrambling to recover. You also starve the people, just enough aid to avoid catastrophe.
 
Mozza said:
An 'extremist' party that had held a unilateral ceasefire with Israel.

I'm well aware that Israel wished to weaken Fatah, a weak negotiation partner means talks can be held of indefinitely, you went too far however when you pushed the people to Hamas and now your scrambling to recover. You also starve the people, just enough aid to avoid catastrophe.
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New Hamas logo:
islam_peace.gif
 
jasonrh said:
Easier to write it off and shoot the messenger than admit there is a problem.
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It's not about shooting the messenger. We can all see who the nutcases are, and they get called out on it, often by you. Which is fine. What I personally grow tired of, is the constant exaggeration that goes with it.

This forum isn't particularly anti-semitic in general, outside of a few whack-jobs. But to assume the whack-jobs are representative of the forum, like you imply here, is out of order.

jasonrh said:
The myth of the CE as a place for considered thought about the ME, plus a bunch of whackjob murdering Jews, is a lot easier and more comfortable to deal with than the reality of it.

Baby's blood drinking, name changing, money lending, big nosed, war mongering, international government controlling, WTC destroying, Iraq invading, terrorist, (possibly) shape shifting cnuts - all of you.
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Like that.
 
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