Umm I don't know the Quran in depth but I'd wager there are some issues that they have completely ignored. Killing people for what they believe, killing fellow Muslims, committing rape and thievery. It really is a simple thing to understand.
ISIS in Iraq and Syria
- Thread starter Suli
- Start date
At this point they aren't basing it off a book just their own desire for power and destruction. They're no more holy than the weapons they kill innocents with.
Because you are reducing the whole heap of factors that have contributed to the development of ISIS down to one thing. The Quran. When if that were true, every Muslim would be beheading and murdering peeople.
Which in my opinion is a fairly unconstructive and dangerous point of view.
The history of the gulf has a far larger influence on this incident than the Islamic faith. You are turning this thread into 'lets bash Islam'.
Don't make such strong claims about books you haven't read. You don't get as big as they have without being willing to smash the heads that get in your way.
In your opinion. In their opinion this guarantees their entrance to heaven.
my point is that their opinion is very wrong, and most the world agrees. Not sure if you agree with what their doing, but maybe you're using the wrong place to side with a terrorist organization who are slaughtering innocents.
As a contributing factor it's damn powerful. ISIS is fighting a losing battle, you don't get people to join a losing battle without incredible loyalty to the cause.
I'm not defending ISIS ffs, you should read the Quran before you completely disregarding their reading of it. You're like religious leaders who tell their congregations to boycott something before even seeing it.
I haven't read the Quran because I have no interest in it at all, but I have an interest in mankind, and if ISIS can justify the killing of many, many people because of a book, theres either something wrong with the book or something wrong with the readers. I'm suggesting the latter.
You can't make that assessment without reading the book. What the feck man. It's like listing films you've never seen as the best of all time.
If ISIS soldiers were so loyal why would they pay a wage?
They use a combination of scare tactics and finance to keep many of their soldiers in the fight.
Of course there is a hardcore majority, who fit the broad sweeping brushstroke you applied.
But I think its abhorrent for you to suggest that Islam and the Quran is to blame for the actions of these monsterous individuals. I think it is incredibly reductionist and driven by an all too familiar agenda of modern times, an innacurate belief that secularism automatically equals progress.
Their religion is not the sole reason they are doing this, it is a far larger issue. Which can be directly linked back to factors like: Western Colonialism, Gulf Geo-politics and American foreign policy. Their interpretation of Islam is a small factor in the grand picture. It of course is a factor. But don't let that stop you from peddling the same argument in every Current Events thread which essentially is... 'religion is bad m'kay'.
I'm not trying to suggest those things aren't big(ger) factors. I just find the defense of violent books bewildering.
The reason you won't suggest that there is something wrong with the book is not because you have informed yourself of the facts, it is because it is an uncomfortable position to hold. This seems to be what you are admitting.
I think the Quran is book with many elements that teach mean to treat their fellow men well.
Of course the book also has a lot of bullshit in it. As any book written generations ago will.
I mean religion is obviously a big load of bollocks.
I wouldn't say I'm really defending it. In this thread I'd rather see a discussion about ISIS and the gulf than constant fingerpointing from militamt atheists about how religion is bad. We get the picture, that drum has been banged enough times.
In what possible way is it abhorrent to make such a claim?
You can say that such a claim is inaccurate and reductionist (as you have said), but why would you call such a position abhorrent?
Yeah when I re-read it I did realise that abhorrent was way too strong a term.
I could justify it. But it would derail my salient points.
It would be pointless to talk about ISIS without talking about what they believe. It would be like talking about the USSR without mentioning communism.
I'm more calling you out on your agenda. Which is a really simple argument.
Correct me if I'm wrong of course but it is something like...
'Religion is the root of all evil'
Which essentially means you are excusing these individuals of their own agency in their atrocities.
Religion is morally bankrupt would be closer to it. Plenty of other roots for evil.
In fact I'm glad you mentioned the USSR and communism. Because in what way was the USSR anything to do with communism and marxism? Nothing other than a complete misinterpretation and a tool utilised for power by the few over the many.
That's like saying America isn't capitalist. It's quite hard to follow economic ideologies closely you know, they always wind up deformed monsters.
If somebody drinks too much alcohol, got drunk, and did terrible things, who is to blame? Him or alcohol? What measure should we take? Try to help/control him, or ban alcohol?
There is a difference in that analogy though, alcohol is proven to be the direct cause of getting drunk, while you can't prove religion is the cause (rather than an excuse those people use) for their wrongdoings.
Either way, I wish this debate would be continued in the relevant thread.
There is a difference in that analogy though, alcohol is proven to be the direct cause of getting drunk, while you can't prove religion is the cause (rather than an excuse those people use) for their wrongdoings.
Either way, I wish this debate would be continued in the relevant thread.
It is impossible to ignore the Quran when analyzing the Islamic State. It (along with Hadith) forms the basis of the movement. It would be like analyzing American political history without referring to the US Constitution.
People can disagree with the stance that the Quran and the religion are at fault for ISIS, but what they cannot do is dismiss the argument simply because it makes them uncomfortable or because it threatens their world view. The evidence should be examined and assessed on the basis of truth, not on the basis of what we think we 'should' believe. Just look at the way the Western media are handling it. I don't think I've heard one mainstream journalist on the TV refer to how the Quran permits the beheading of captives, even though this is obviously relevant.
I am pretty sure that the Islamic State and its adherents know the Quran better than you do. And I am pretty sure they are closer to the Quran and its teachings than many other Muslims are.
You say you haven't read the Quran, then come in here and claim ISIS are far off. Seriously dude, what the feck is that kind of logic?
I find it funny how a non-Muslim comes in and tells us how far off these devout Muslims are from the teachings they believe so fervently in.
Kinda funny and sad at the same time.
I would say that everybody knows that fundamentalist Islam is the core ideology of ISIS. Furthermore everybody knows the content of Sharia law.
I disagree entirely that it is the reason behind this situation. It is just an ideological excuse for conflict.
Do you blame American actions in the gulf on Christianity? Of course you don't. Because we all know that the route cause of American interest is power and wealth. Same as this the motive for those like Al-Bahgdadi.
ISIS is just another manifestation of power hungry intelligent individuals utilising an ideology and cult of personality to get individuals to fight for them.
It what way was the USSR Marxist?
Enlighten me...
In the meantime I'll give you 100 reasons why America can be classed as Capitalist if you so wish.
The difference is the US does things not in the name of a religion and the people carrying out the actions adhere to different religions and/or ideologies.
Whilst the Islamic State entirely exists out of Muslims who adhere to the Islamic faith and do so by devoutly following its teachings and essence. I wonder if someone who blows himself up does so because one seeks power and wealth or because one carries out a deed in the name of one's religion.
Is Karl the only person who is allowed to come to with labor driven theories? There's more communism than the manifesto.
@Silva is right. Their soldiers are loyal and that's why there seems to be so much unity by them. Also, the version of Islam they follow is inspired by ibn taymiah, saudi also follow this version and many many people disagree with it but it's perfectly fine in their minds. In ISIS minds they haven't been killing innocents. It's really a long topic.
this is a silly point seeing as they're seen as leaders/commanders of their states or armies. Why would a commander go out and try to die when he can be a bigger help to his community by doing what he does best and that is commanding. Put yourself in ISIS minds, their aim isn't to kill themselves, their aim is to benefit their state in the best way they can.
Huh? Did you even see the point I was responding to?
You are supporting my argument that there is a will to power in ISIS leadership.
Also Relevated ISIS has not created a state. Referring to it as such gives these acts a level of validation that they do not deserve.
I was just talking in their perspective.
If you can't see how...
USSR manipulated a text and doctrine to give power to the few over the many.
ISIS does the same with the Quran.
Islam in itself is not to blame here.
Fascistic leaders are to blame.
Then let us accept we have different views on anthropology.
When did this thread turn into the religion thread Mk II ?
For real.....
If you go back a few pages I think you'll notice I have no problem with revised versions of Islam, but the Quran as it is does encourage people like these.
Ok folks....enough derailing. Take the religion talk next door.
I don't remember any Beatles lyrics explicitly promoting murder.
But you certainly can find ones from a variety of different recording artists I am sure.
As Raoul says lets leave this.
I don't think you are wrong. I just get bored reading the CE forum with the same old boring crusade against religion. As if it was so simple, as if all we needed to do was remove religion and we would all be happy and free. When quite frankly we know that to be entirely false.
I never really post here, and I stopped reading really when Rednev and his type started this stuff when the first started masturbating furiously to Dawkins.
We may as well rename this forum the 'Militant Atheist's Corner'.