ISIS in Iraq and Syria

The 'weird invention' is the idea - which you've been pushing - that these people have orchestrated the entire Syrian Civil War. You may not be aware of this, or might not care, but the theory that members of the Rothschild family go around creating conflicts in order to profit is one of the most notorious antisemitic conspiracy theories out there.
I don't care about what some anti-Semitic nutters think. I believe it to be stone cold incontrovertible fact that the names quoted in the article are behind the illegal oil and gas exploitation in Syria. Of course they are there with Israel's blessings. Of course it's illegal under international law. These are indisputable facts. It's also true that Israel has aided and abetted AlQaeda in Syria. Do you doubt that?
At which point do people start to ask themselves if they're really OK with a country, a rogue state, flouting international law and openly assisting AlQaeda???!!!
 
Right, but you acknowledge that it can't be both yeah? In which case, why do you think the Russian and Syrian governments have at various times pushed both theories, when they should know for certain if the 'warehouse' scenario is true or not (they seemed pretty certain of it at first, providing locations and times which of course conflicted with those provided by Hersh later)?

Do you think all this confusion and lack of any real evidence provided by the Russians and Syrian government (despite the investigation Lavrov promised right after the attack) might have played a role in convincing people that the alternative theory provided by the UN (and French intelligence, and bellingcat) has more credibility?
I believe it came as a shocking surprise to the Russians and Syrians. They were both keen for independent inspectors to visit both Khan Sheikhoun and the airbase. They did appear to be unprepared and trying to piece together what must have happened. That's why they were so keen for OPCW to be involved EARLY and IN-SITU. What actually happened in the aftermath is that AlQaeda were responsible for providing the evidence and witness accounts.
 
I'm curious, do you believe the Khan Sheikhoun attack was a rebel false flag operation (as implied by Postol in his articles), or a result of a Syrian airstrike hitting a rebel chemical weapons storage facility (as reported by Hersh)? At various times the Syrian and Russian governments have pushed both theories (although in the case of the latter scenario, they have provided different details from what Hersh reported).

I tend to think that the two different accounts are not exactly mutually exclusive. We have to be cognizant of propaganda. The Syrians and Russians might say it was a false flag. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Maybe the Al-Qaeda or whatever they were calling themselves at the time, were hoping for an air strike, it's even possible they leaked the information that lead to the air strike themselves. We also have to be aware that not everyone has all the information, and the only people who do, are those who were on the ground. Hersh can report what he knows from his intelligence sources. The Russians and Syrians can report what they know, but you can expect a little bit more, how can we put it, artistic liberty, with their account.

At the end of the day, you've got to look at all the evidence that we do have, and then try to contextualize it based on what we know. Who stands to gain from such an attack? Who stands to lose? What are the motivations for such an attack? What is the character of the primary participants. What credible information do we have? How do we value that information? Among other questions to ask. When I run down this list, I see Assad as the one who has the most to lose. I see the Jihadist groups are gaining the most. I see Assad as someone who while ruthless, is probably not suicidal, and will act to preserve his position. I see Al-Qaeda as someone who has nothing to lose and everything to gain, and has no qualms about sacrificing civilians, enmass if it meets their goal. What is the outcome of a gas attack by Assad, international condemnation, and potential intervention. This isn't even taking into account the western medias support for the ouster of Assad, or any intelligence apparatus' that may be in the back ground trying to facilitate this.

The report that implicated Assad, had no evidence. It's a "I think, presented as fact" piece. The doubts over who was responsible was raised by Hersh who has intelligence sources telling him that it wasn't Assad. There is no concrete evidence on either side, so we're forced to look at questions and questions like the ones I posed in the previous paragraph.
 
Last edited:
I've kept an open mind about this attack all along. Neither Nusra or the Assad government have done anything to deserve the benefit of the doubt. However in the absence of the promised Russian investigation, and given the confused and contradictory explanations they and the Syrian gov have pushed, all we are really left with is a somewhat comprehensive and coherent 39-page report which presents a fairly convincing 'most likely' scenario. Until the Russians and Assad respond to it in full with an equally plausible and coherent counter-narrative, it is understandable why the UN report will be seen as the most credible explanation we have.

Hersh certainly deserves attention, but his report is almost entirely based on one anonymous intelligence officer, and conflicts with the Russians on the crucial details. Postol has far less credibility IMO given his previous work with the 9/11 truther, Holocaust skeptic, and Infowars contributer "Partisan Girl" and some really basic and comical errors in his articles.

When I run down this list, I see Assad as the one who has the most to lose. I see the Jihadist groups are gaining the most

Yes, this is how it all looks to a purely rational observer outside the war zone. And I agree it makes sense (I've acknowledged this previously in the thread). At the same time, war zones are places where the actors involved don't always behave exactly as we might expect them to, where chain of command can get fecked up and lead to misunderstandings, where rogue officers can take matters into their own hands, etc. There are plenty of possible plausible explanations for why the attack might have originated from a Syrian Army aircraft. I don't find that any of them stretch credibility any more than the theory that Nusra staged the entire thing (which I'm still open to).

It's worth bearing in mind too that the Syrian gov hasn't actually had much if any price to pay if indeed it was responsible for this and other chemical attacks during the war.
 
It's well documented that the US and the Kurds have been the vanguard against ISIS, whilst the Russians have been far more concerned with keeping Assad in power until just recently.
An honest question... Would you say it's well documented who the SAA (Syrian Arab Army - the Syrian government forces) and its allies have been fighting? I'm guessing you believe it to be mostly brave Syrian rebels fighting for freedom from a tyrannical regime. Am I right?

There have been times when it's seemed the flow of lies has begun to dry up. Maybe now the truth is beginning to emerge into mainstream consciousness. I can only hope.

 
Last edited:
An honest question... Would you say it's well documented who the SAA (Syrian Arab Army - the Syrian government forces) and its allies have been fighting? I'm guessing you believe it to be mostly brave Syrian rebels fighting for freedom from a tyrannical regime. Am I right?
No. They have been fighting whomever was the biggest threat to Assad at that point in time.
 
DOJDlACXUAY4Xpc.jpg:large
 
No, I didn't realize the Syrian civilian population was almost exclusively jihadist terrorists.
One day, hopefully soon, the war will be over. Syrian refugees will return home. The enormous task of rebuilding will begin. Free and fair elections will be held. Just who stands for election against Assad isn't at all clear. Then we'll all see what Syrians think of Assad. There will be some Sunnis, no doubt, still keen on establishing a Caliphate. The vast majority will vote for preserving the secular society under Assad.
 
Where's the characterisation of the guy pissed-off no end at tax money going to Al Qaeda?
The fact is the US sought to destabilise the Syrian government. They poured huge amounts of taxpayers' dollars into any group opposed to Assad. It soon became clear that the main opposition was intent on replacing the secular government with a Caliphate. ISIS is broken but HTS remains near both the Turkish and Israeli borders - where they enjoy the support of those countries. It's so very annoying that people are blind to the fact that their taxes are being used to fund terrorists.
 
One day, hopefully soon, the war will be over. Syrian refugees will return home. The enormous task of rebuilding will begin. Free and fair elections will be held. Just who stands for election against Assad isn't at all clear. Then we'll all see what Syrians think of Assad. There will be some Sunnis, no doubt, still keen on establishing a Caliphate. The vast majority will vote for preserving the secular society under Assad.
So in your narrative Syrian Sunni's are either closet head choppers or Assad supporters, no inbetween?
 
One day, hopefully soon, the war will be over. Syrian refugees will return home. The enormous task of rebuilding will begin. Free and fair elections will be held. Just who stands for election against Assad isn't at all clear. Then we'll all see what Syrians think of Assad. There will be some Sunnis, no doubt, still keen on establishing a Caliphate. The vast majority will vote for preserving the secular society under Assad.
Almost clever, until the bolded part...
 
Now I've heard it all :lol:.
 
No. That's not what I said. Is it?

I was referring to this part:

One day, hopefully soon, the war will be over. Syrian refugees will return home. The enormous task of rebuilding will begin. Free and fair elections will be held. Just who stands for election against Assad isn't at all clear. Then we'll all see what Syrians think of Assad. There will be some Sunnis, no doubt, still keen on establishing a Caliphate. The vast majority will vote for preserving the secular society under Assad.

To me this says that the vast majority will support an Assad election with some still backing a theocracy, that would leave a small number of non sectarian Sunni who don't support Assad.

I could be reading it wrong though, it's just a matter of how your post is seen really.
 
I was referring to this part:



To me this says that the vast majority will support an Assad election with some still backing a theocracy, that would leave a small number of non sectarian Sunni who don't support Assad.

I could be reading it wrong though, it's just a matter of how your post is seen really.
ISIS and AQ/AN/HTS have been Assad's main enemies. It's a Sunni thing. Syria has a huge Sunni population. If I thought the majority of Sunnis would prefer a return of the Caliphate I wouldn't be expecting a majority for Assad. Is that clearer?
 
Remember a year ago today? Human Rights Watch saying scores of people had been murdered by the Syrian Arab Army as it took East Aleppo and predicting genocide?

 
Last edited:
Sophisticated weapons the U.S. military secretly provided to Syrian rebels quickly fell into the hands of the Islamic State, a study released Thursday disclosed.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ome-wound-up-hands-isis-terrorists/949209001/
Been reading a number of articles about the study, make sure to read beyond the headline.

http://m.dw.com/en/islamic-state-is-fighting-with-weapons-made-in-the-eu-study/a-41802825

https://www.rt.com/usa/413252-report-isis-weapons-syria/


A few others I can't find now


Confirmation of old stories, we know the arms that have been pumped into the region for decades on up until today.
 
Last edited:
Been reading a number of articles about the study, make sure to read beyond the headline.

http://m.dw.com/en/islamic-state-is-fighting-with-weapons-made-in-the-eu-study/a-41802825

https://www.rt.com/usa/413252-report-isis-weapons-syria/


A few others I can't find now


Confirmation of old stories, we know the arms that have been pumped into the region for decades on up until today.
A huge amount of ISIS arms were captured in both Mosul (from Iraqis) and Palmyra (from Syrians). Seems the Syrians got them back.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/syrian-army-will-create-new-brigades-captured-isis-weapons/
 
The article linked to in this tweet details yet more taxpayers' money being gifted to terrorists. I really can't understand why this is not widely known. It's absolutely unpardonable.

 


While the Russians likely had their own regional motivations for getting involved, it's hard to deny that were it not for them, Syria would likely be another Libya - i.e another fragmented Islamist haven with slavebays and mass genocide of minorities.

Sometimes there needs to be a counteracting buffer, we've seen the carnage the US has invoked with its unchallenged grip over the Middle East over the last decades since the fall of the Soviet Union, the region needs a counteracting balance.
 
While the Russians likely had their own regional motivations for getting involved, it's hard to deny that were it not for them, Syria would likely be another Libya - i.e another fragmented Islamist haven with slavebays and mass genocide of minorities.

Sometimes there needs to be a counteracting buffer, we've seen the carnage the US has invoked with its unchallenged grip over the Middle East over the last decades since the fall of the Soviet Union.

So you don't mind foreign, military interventionism in the middle east as long as it supports your preferred political views. Good to know.
 
So you don't mind foreign, military interventionism in the middle east as long as it supports your preferred political views. Good to know.

Nope, I obviously prefer no military intervenionism from an idyllic sense.

But considering we live in the real world, I'd rather the Russians be involved if it means buffering the carnage and devastation the US and its regional partners have caused when left unchallenged to pursue their hegemonic goals. If only there was Russian presence in Yemen and Libya, maybe they wouldn't have descended into state-wide Islamist havens or Slaver bays.

If I were a Syrian Sunni secularist, Shia, Christian or Atheist then I'd be pretty feckin grateful for Russia.
 
Nope, I obviously prefer no military intervenionism from an idyllic sense.

But considering we live in the real world, I'd rather the Russians be involved if it means buffering the carnage and devastation the US and its regional partners have caused when left unchallenged to pursue their hegemonic goals. If only there was Russian presence in Yemen and Libya, maybe they wouldn't have descended into state-wide Islamist havens or Slaver bays.

If I were a Syrian Sunni secularist, Shia, Christian or Atheist then I'd be pretty feckin grateful for Russia.

Its merely delaying the inevitable as Assad will never have any legitimacy as a Syrian leader going forward. At this point he is merely a Putin puppet who is allowed to be alive in exchange for Putin's bases. Once that symbiotic bargain is taken out of the equation, the war will continue to kick on.