Is winning everything?

Sir A1ex

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I reckon the split we are seeing in various threads over stuff like Welbeck leaving, Falcao coming in, the club's traditions, etc all comes down to one thing - Is winning everything?
While a sizeable minority appear to think it's more complicated than that, it seems that the majority would say yes, winning is everything. In fact, from what I've read, a lot of people are absolutely baffled and slightly amused by any other suggestion. "Why could it possibly matter that we've lost a home-grown player, when his replacement is clearly better?" is the general refrain. The logic is so obvious and any other opinion so crazy that people descend into condescension and mockery.

But I think you need to look a bit further. I'm sure we've all come across non-football fans who just can't see the point of supporting a football team... "how can you get excited about 22 men kicking a piece of leather around a field?" they ask, and they are essentially right. How you can become upset, proud, angry, obsessed and a million other emotions about it is absolutely beyond them, and again it's hard to argue against. Why on earth are you walking on air on a Monday morning after United have beaten Liverpool at the weekend... what the feck difference to your life does it make if one bunch of millionaires you don't know kicked a football a bit better than another bunch?

So, no, there is no sneeringly obvious logic in putting success above all else. If you're going to be totally irrational, don't try and claim that your way of being totally irrational is more logical than other people's. If some people take their joy not just from success but from other less straightforward measures of the club, then they have every right to.

That isn't to say that you don't have the right to purely be interested in trophies - I'm sure we all take different things from football. One of my main joys (not that I get to experience it much anymore) is the whole camaraderie of the crowd... when I used to get to matches I'd often hardly take in the details of what was happening on the pitch, but I was on cloud 9 singing, clapping and jumping with thousands of other reds. Others like to study the match in intricate detail and analyse every move - each to their own.

So if some of us would maybe even sacrifice the odd trophy for the chance to be able to take pride in how we've gone about winning those we do win, that's just how it is, I'm afraid.
 
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I'd be interested to know the ages, birth place and how long people had been supporting United for and what their corresponding views on the situation are.
 
To answer the title .No but for those 1999 fans it seems to mean everything.
 
red_devil83 said:
I'd be interested to know the ages, birth place and how long people had been supporting United for and what their corresponding views on the situation are.
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I've been supporting United for a very long time, I can still remember the relegation season. I can confirm that winning everything is much more fun that not winning anything. Waiting 25 years whilst only winning the odd FA Cup is not as good as winning something most seasons.
 
Winning isn't everything IF there is a legitimate reason why a club as big and as rich as us shouldn't be winning or at least challenging for everything.

If we were a small club that had been punching far above our weight the last 20 years then MAYBE peoples expectation would be rightly lower than they are for us.

People also need to realize that football is a money business now more than ever and if people don't like that and don't want to evolve with the times then they should go watch Rugby, a real mans game.
 
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United's identity first and foremost is for winning and being the biggest and most successful team in England. Practically every team in the land thinks they have a tradition of bringing through youth and playing attacking football or whatever else makes up the 'United way'. Take West Ham for example, they do bring through a fair few players but I can't ever remember them playing this mythical 'West Ham way' that they bang on about. It's unrealistic in this day and age (as transfers are so common now) for a top club to stay on top without signing world class players, that's why all of the top clubs do it.

So for the most part yes winning is everything, although I love us to play good attacking football too.
 
No, it isn't.

United are a family. It's fair enough when we adopt a new kid every once in a while, but it feels like we've sent off all our own to a foster home and brought in a bunch of strangers who just like us because we're rich. Meanwhile, the 2 spanish families down the street bring in kids who love them for who they are. I miss grandad Alex. He never would have let this happen.

Shit analogy. Don't bother telling me.
 
Of course it isn't everything, and we can't win everything anyway.

But mediocrity doesn't cut it either. We are not a mediocre or average football team.

When we're not winning we must be rebuilding.

We are the level that every club in England wants to be, the standard and model that they adhere to - thats why they love to hate us.
 
Imo the fans are the most important thing about the club, not the individuals running or playing for it. Loyalty from footballers is rare in reality, we get to keep our best homegrown players because we can pay them well, but with smaller clubs that almost never happens, footballers seek money, in return no one should get a free ride at the club just because he's a local lad, we should always want what's best for the club and the fans, not the players, fergie has been ruthless with plenty of homegrown players including some of the class of 92.

The club should always aspire to win and entertain and there's no shame in that, it makes us happy, the players will come and go and the fans will remain through it all.
 
Dante said:
No, it isn't.

United are a family. It's fair enough when we adopt a new kid every once in a while, but it feels like we've sent off all our own to a foster home and brought in a bunch of strangers who just like us because we're rich. Meanwhile, the 2 spanish families down the street bring in kids who love them for who they are. I miss grandad Alex. He never would have let this happen.

Shit analogy. Don't bother telling me.
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You sound like a refugee form RAWK, get a grip!
 
Drifter said:
To answer the title .No but for those 1999 fans it seems to mean everything.
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To me, no .. but maybe yes, its an addiction which many including me have got used to , when sitting on a couch and missing the excitement and noise inside the ground .

But, for the commercial giant that United is today , its very critical ..

And yes, I started watching united around mid to late 90's , from half way across the globe on a couch .
 
Years down the line, we wont be remembered as a team who brought up youth players. Success will be measured in the number of trophies won. Why do you think we bring up our domestic success and Liverpool, their European success in almost every argument?
 
girish said:
Years down the line, we wont be remembered as a team who brought up youth players. Success will be measured in the number of trophies won. Why do you think we bring up our domestic success and Liverpool, their European success in almost every argument?
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Because our wives are scousers?
 
Dante said:
No, it isn't.

United are a family. It's fair enough when we adopt a new kid every once in a while, but it feels like we've sent off all our own to a foster home and brought in a bunch of strangers who just like us because we're rich. Meanwhile, the 2 spanish families down the street bring in kids who love them for who they are. I miss grandad Alex. He never would have let this happen.

Shit analogy. Don't bother telling me.
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Wtf :lol:
 
No it's not. I expect us to finish in the top 4 every season though. Dominating the league like we have done for the past 20 years will be harder than ever now. Times have changed. I expect us to do well in Europe once we are back in the CL but I don't expect us to cruise to the finals like Bayern, Real amd Barca do.
 
Since when did winning become a dirty word? Forgive me if i'm wrong but isn't the whole idea of the game of football to see who wins?

I have supported United since the early 70's. I've seen them relegated, don't want to go back there again. So yes I'm happy that we have signed some world class stars.
 
No, we're mes que un club. Oh wait...

Having said that, selling Welbeck was still the right move, and we have always done it when the player fails to live up to his potential, and proved not good enough to play for United.
 
It's not everything. But everything you do should aspire to reach that, whatever way you choose.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
:lol: this.

Seriously, some of you need to get a grip.

Danny Welbeck - Mr. Manchester United, apparently.
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I'm struggling to understand why so many fans are getting upset by this, he was a decent squad player at best. If truth be told, when all players are fit he wouldn't have got into the team at all this season. He was most likely told this and rightly wanted to leave.
It's that simple.
Oh and winning is everything in football, otherwise what's the point.
 
In terms of Welbz, we should have a squad Place for someone like him.

Winning of course is now a short term priority to get back to our approach of more long term Planning and education from the past.
 
ravi2 said:
With the way some folks here carry on about Danny Welbeck's leaving you'd think we just sold Cantona or something.
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This. While I'm not entirely happy with the sale of Danny to Arse, the over-reaction to it on here is unbelievable.

People want to hound Cleverley out but selling Welbeck on the other hand would mean a loss of identity to them. What has Danny done significantly that Cleverley hasn't? Sure he's the better of the two, but is that enough? While Danny can't be classed along the likes of Cleverley and Gibson, he still hasn't done enough to challenge a first xi spot FFS. And no, he isn't all that young, he's 24-ish now!
 
Winning is everything in professional football, what's the point in losing and being happy about it at the end of the day? History and the social aspect play a big part in loving a club but at the end of the day its all about winning.

I will never stop supporting United no matter how tough times got/get, its a hobbie, maybe even an obsession but at the end of the day there is nothing more glorious than winning a trophy, drumming a team 5-0, beating a rival, having the best talents in the world, the screaming and singing fans when there is something to scream and sing about and THAT status of being elite!

I was 'born' a United fan so to speak, being born into a big supporting United family who endured past glories and past nightmares from Busby to Fergie, I however was born in the latter era, its had its ups and downs mainly in Europe but those two CL finals were probably the best nights of my life and the two lost finals some of the biggest heart breaks, would those nights have been a night to remember had we won? Winning is everything in professional football.
 
Sir A1ex said:
I reckon the split we are seeing in various threads over stuff like Welbeck leaving, Falcao coming in, the club's traditions, etc all comes down to one thing - Is winning everything?
While a sizeable minority appear to think it's more complicated than that, it seems that the majority would say yes, winning is everything. In fact, from what I've read, a lot of people are absolutely baffled and slightly amused by any other suggestion. "Why could it possibly matter that we've lost a home-grown player, when his replacement is clearly better?" is the general refrain. The logic is so obvious and any other opinion so crazy that people descend into condescension and mockery.

But I think you need to look a bit further. I'm sure we've all come across non-football fans who just can't see the point of supporting a football team... "how can you get excited about 22 men kicking a piece of leather around a field?" they ask, and they are essentially right. How you can become upset, proud, angry, obsessed and a million other emotions about it is absolutely beyond them, and again it's hard to argue against. Why on earth are you walking on air on a Monday morning after United have beaten Liverpool at the weekend... what the feck difference to your life does it make if one bunch of millionaires you don't know kicked a football a bit better than another bunch?

So, no, there is no sneeringly obvious logic in putting success above all else. If you're going to be totally irrational, don't try and claim that your way of being totally irrational is more logical than other people's. If some people take their joy not just from success but from other less straightforward measures of the club, then they have every right to.

That isn't to say that you don't have the right to purely be interested in trophies - I'm sure we all take different things from football. One of my main joys (not that I get to experience it much anymore) is the whole camaraderie of the crowd... when I used to get to matches I'd often hardly take in the details of what was happening on the pitch, but I was on cloud 9 singing, clapping and jumping with thousands of other reds. Others like to study the match in intricate detail and analyse every move - each to their own.

So if some of us would maybe even sacrifice the odd trophy for the chance to be able to take pride in how we've gone about winning those we do win, that's just how it is, I'm afraid.
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Did you cry for Moyes to get sacked? Why do you cry for him to get sacked? Isn't it because ultimately he didn't win many games?
 
Winning and Man Utd go like a hand and a glove, can you really have the one without the other?

For example, rebuilding after Munich and winning the European Cup 10 years later is part of the fabric of this club. It was winning at Wembley that gave the story its appropriate ending. The Babes started us on the road to glory in Europe, their successors made the final step they sadly never could.

Sir Bobby's words to the players at last season's end of year award ceremony, that Man Utd aren't a club used to being second, is something that was drilled into him by Sir Matt. Its at the heart of what Man Utd is.

Manchester United don't just turn up to make up the numbers. They, our opponents, only come to see United. That's what we sing!

So in a way winning is everything, because without winning we no longer live up to the expectations of what it means to be Man Utd.

When Sir Matt and Sir Bobby saw us win the title in 1993 after almost three decades in the wilderness they both looked happy beyond happiness. Do you think they cared that most of the side had been expensively assembled and a French maverick had been the catalyst to our success?

I really find this a strange question. Man Utd fans always love a home grown player, but there was no crisis of identity when Fergie was putting together the side that brought us back to the top of the game. Had Giggsy not been a genius, Lee Sharpe (who yes we bought) would've been on the left wing that season. Would anyone have been complaining...?
 
Our history means shit if we don't win trophies.

Every team in England have their own tale to tell, but not every team is Manchester United (or begrudgingly Liverpool) because they haven't won much in their history.

Talking about youth, attacking play, british talent, and all other ambigous thing, you can find them aplenty in division 1, There are many more teams that are more attacking than us, having more british players, promoting youths in and out every year, but they're not Manchester United because they won nothing.

So yes, you're all that because you're doing all that and still manages to win shits
 
I'm fecking sick of getting bummed by City and Liverpool. I'd quite like to return fire this season.
 
Loon said:
I'm fecking sick of getting bummed by City and Liverpool. I'd quite like to return fire this season.
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Exactly, ask anyone after we get beat if winning is everything, especially if it's to City or Liverpool.
 
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