Is winning everything?

Sir A1ex said:
One of my main joys (not that I get to experience it much anymore) is the whole camaraderie of the crowd... when I used to get to matches I'd often hardly take in the details of what was happening on the pitch, but I was on cloud 9 singing, clapping and jumping with thousands of other reds. Others like to study the match in intricate detail and analyse every move - each to their own.
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Maybe not in the stadium, but this is a common sight in Asia. You go to a sport pub where they show matches and you can see a group of fans each wearing a different club jersey watchin a match where none of the teams they support play. They just like foootball and can support any club that catches their interest. No matter who wins or loses, they are happy as long as the game is entertaining. Nothing wrong in that.

But when you choose a particular club you want it to be the best. Nothing short of a win can achieve that. You can qualify victory as in a entertaining 4-3 win is better than a dreary 1-0 win and all that, but in the end as long as the game is played fair (no cheating/diving etc), winning is everything!
 
As a fan you're in love with a projection of sorts - as in, you project your own idea of "United" onto something which more or less corresponds with that idea. That's my theory anyway. The greater the discrepancy between your idea and the stark reality - the less emotionally involved you are. That part of "fandom" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with winning or losing on the pitch. The latter is a bonus for me personally. A while back I said that if I had to choose between Welbeck and Messi, I'd go for Welbeck - easily. And I meant it. Nothing to do with how I rate them as footballers, as anyone with half a brain will understand.

So, no - it's not everything. Doesn't mean I don't want us to win every bloody match we play, down to meaningless friendlies. But not at the expense of my idea of United. Which is subjective. Some ten year old kid from Hong Kong may have a completely different idea. Just as my grandfather's idea no doubt differed from mine.

PS The supposed whining going on round here doesn't come from the isolated fact that we sold Danny Welbeck to Arsenal. Obviously not.
 
If anything the transfer shows more about Manchester United's character than anything else.

He is a local lad who was part of the setup right from his early days. He consistently showed promise and hence was rewarded accordingly by expediting his progress through the ranks. Once in the first team, he could not compete with the other strikers that we have and there is no shame in that.

Any other club would have either forced him to stay on the bench or would have shipped him off to another country. We on the other hand did what was best of his career not the club. Now how many clubs can do that? We could have easily kept him on and refused to let him go. This alone proves that we have more character than some of the other clubs in the PL and we are not an entity without a soul.

Young players in our academy now know that they won't rot on the bench and would be allowed to join another team that matches their ambition even if they are a rival to the present club.
 
No. If it was you may as well not turn up to the games, or tune in on the television, and turn up to the victory parade in May. We've won, right?
 
Subho611 said:
If anything the transfer shows more about Manchester United's character than anything else.

He is a local lad who was part of the setup right from his early days. He consistently showed promise and hence was rewarded accordingly by expediting his progress through the ranks. Once in the first team, he could not compete with the other strikers that we have and there is no shame in that.

Any other club would have either forced him to stay on the bench or would have shipped him off to another country. We on the other hand did what was best of his career not the club. Now how many clubs can do that? We could have easily kept him on and refused to let him go. This alone proves that we have more character than some of the other clubs in the PL and we are not an entity without a soul.

Young players in our academy now know that they won't rot on the bench and would be allowed to join another team that matches their ambition even if they are a rival to the present club.
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Fair point.
 
Getsme said:
I'm struggling to understand why so many fans are getting upset by this, he was a decent squad player at best. If truth be told, when all players are fit he wouldn't have got into the team at all this season. He was most likely told this and rightly wanted to leave.
It's that simple.
Oh and winning is everything in football, otherwise what's the point.
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Your last sentence is fecking horseshit lad.
 
Sky1981 said:
Did you cry for Moyes to get sacked? Why do you cry for him to get sacked? Isn't it because ultimately he didn't win many games?
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No, I didn't actually. I was probably amongst the last to still say we should give him time. I guess there's probably a correlation with people's attitudes to stuff like Welbeck going.
 
Winning takes care of everything else, in the words of Tiger. If Fergie were still manager would be have spent close to 200M in the last 3 transfer windows? No, because we would have still been winning. Is that a good or bad thing for the team? I don't know.
 
Yes. This is not some kindergarden football game, where they don't keep score and give everyone a medal so that they don't feel bad about it. This is competitive sport of the highest level. All is fair in love and war and this is similar to war. Just grow up and deal with it..
 
Winning is the number one priority along with financial health. If the club is winning and in a good position financially, then other things will come along eventually. There are different ways to win and people will be a lot more forgiving if you're intent on raising your own prospects rather than spending a shitload of money on proven stars. There are no excuse not to win now, absolutely none unless di Maria, Falcao, van Persie, Rooney and Herrera all get hurt.
 
OK, so here's a thought experiment... I suspect it will show that the "Winning at all costs" v "Club traditions" thing is probably actually something of a spectrum... see where you fit!:

Would you swap the class of 92 for another league title?

Ie, you can have 21 league titles instead of 20 (you can pick which one if you really like... maybe 1995 or 2010 to give us 5 in-a-row, or maybe one of the City ones), but not one of them featured Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Butt and the Nevilles, but instead a relative revolving doors of expensively acquired world class talent (RVPs, Matas etc... maybe Veron was a massive success in this alternative universe!).

Deal or no Deal?

If it's a deal, would you make the same bargain for a lesser trophy... an FA Cup... a League Cup... or if you are a 100% Winning is Everything man, maybe just a match?

If it's no deal, what level of success would change you mind... 5 more league titles... maybe throw in a couple of European Cups, or is there no price? (Admittedly the experiment eventually falls down, because I'm not sure I'd want us to have won every competition we've ever taken part in, I might be a bit bored by now!).

Name your price!
 
Fully Fledged said:
Since when did winning become a dirty word? Forgive me if i'm wrong but isn't the whole idea of the game of football to see who wins?

I have supported United since the early 70's. I've seen them relegated, don't want to go back there again. So yes I'm happy that we have signed some world class stars.
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You & me both mate...
 
Colin129 said:
I've been supporting United for a very long time, I can still remember the relegation season. I can confirm that winning everything is much more fun that not winning anything. Waiting 25 years whilst only winning the odd FA Cup is not as good as winning something most seasons.
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This...I remember that season to, although i was a boy then. Living through 20 odd years of Liverpool dominance was sometimes just ghastly......then we did it, and I really really know which I prefer.
 
Dante said:
No, it isn't.

United are a family. It's fair enough when we adopt a new kid every once in a while, but it feels like we've sent off all our own to a foster home and brought in a bunch of strangers who just like us because we're rich. Meanwhile, the 2 spanish families down the street bring in kids who love them for who they are. I miss grandad Alex. He never would have let this happen.

Shit analogy. Don't bother telling me.
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Holy smokes :lol:
 
I watch Ireland regularly, they're muck a lot of the time but delight me with any form of win, regardless of performance. So as an Irish football fan I would say winning is everything.

Whereas watching Manchester United I want to enjoy the football on display, I want to be excited, so I would not agree that winning is everything as a Manchester United supporter.
 
Sir A1ex said:
OK, so here's a thought experiment... I suspect it will show that the "Winning at all costs" v "Club traditions" thing is probably actually something of a spectrum... see where you fit!:

Would you swap the class of 92 for another league title?

Ie, you can have 21 league titles instead of 20 (you can pick which one if you really like... maybe 1995 or 2010 to give us 5 in-a-row, or maybe one of the City ones), but not one of them featured Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Butt and the Nevilles, but instead a relative revolving doors of expensively acquired world class talent (RVPs, Matas etc... maybe Veron was a massive success in this alternative universe!).

Deal or no Deal?

If it's a deal, would you make the same bargain for a lesser trophy... an FA Cup... a League Cup... or if you are a 100% Winning is Everything man, maybe just a match?

If it's no deal, what level of success would change you mind... 5 more league titles... maybe throw in a couple of European Cups, or is there no price? (Admittedly the experiment eventually falls down, because I'm not sure I'd want us to have won every competition we've ever taken part in, I might be a bit bored by now!).

Name your price!
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Deal.

I would take it gladly. Considering we are financially stable and playing the same level of football as in the 92-09.
 
togg said:
This...I remember that season to, although i was a boy then. Living through 20 odd years of Liverpool dominance was sometimes just ghastly......then we did it, and I really really know which I prefer.
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Yeh, alright, so was I. I'm old but I'm not that old!

That's what made it so bad though, a little boy seeing the team he loves being relegated hurt pretty hard. I guess these days, a little boy who saw his team relegated would just move on to the next one?
 
bleedred said:
Deal.

I would take it gladly. Considering we are financially stable and playing the same level of football as in the 92-09.
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Interesting, I don't think I would. I genuinely think I've taken more joy from the existence of that core of player in our team over the years than I would have from one extra league title.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I watch Ireland regularly, they're muck a lot of the time but delight me with any form of win, regardless of performance. So as an Irish football fan I would say winning is everything.

Whereas watching Manchester United I want to enjoy the football on display, I want to be excited, so I would not agree that winning is everything as a Manchester United supporter.
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nah...I want to enjoy the football on display AND win....what a feeling that is
 
Sir A1ex said:
OK, so here's a thought experiment... I suspect it will show that the "Winning at all costs" v "Club traditions" thing is probably actually something of a spectrum... see where you fit!:

Would you swap the class of 92 for another league title?

Ie, you can have 21 league titles instead of 20 (you can pick which one if you really like... maybe 1995 or 2010 to give us 5 in-a-row, or maybe one of the City ones), but not one of them featured Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Butt and the Nevilles, but instead a relative revolving doors of expensively acquired world class talent (RVPs, Matas etc... maybe Veron was a massive success in this alternative universe!).

Deal or no Deal?

If it's a deal, would you make the same bargain for a lesser trophy... an FA Cup... a League Cup... or if you are a 100% Winning is Everything man, maybe just a match?

If it's no deal, what level of success would change you mind... 5 more league titles... maybe throw in a couple of European Cups, or is there no price? (Admittedly the experiment eventually falls down, because I'm not sure I'd want us to have won every competition we've ever taken part in, I might be a bit bored by now!).

Name your price!
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No deal, some things mean more than numbers.
 
Sir A1ex. this is an excellent question and I am sure that for most of us in our heart of hearts winning isn't everything but we probably also subscribe to the philosophy that " football isn't a matter of life or death... it's more important than that!".

I am 47, supported United as a kid cos of a couple of cup runs or summat and hung in there throughout the shite of the 80s and into the promised land that Fergie delivered! No way would I swap the class of 92 for an extra title. That, the Busby Babes, Munich, Best, Law and Charlton and SAF are all the essence of the club. But times change and you have to move with the times if you're to remain relevant and in football that means winning.

So, we have lost Danny. Looks like TC23 is following him. We still have Evans, Fletch, Lingard, Blackett, James, Wilson and a host of other home grown talent being given a chance. The thing is we are a global club aiming to compete at the top level with the likes of Barca, Real, Bayern and domestically with the petro-dollars of Citeh and the ropey-roubles of Roman. What are the chances that a homegrown player will reach the required level? Statistically it must be remote... Class of 92 was a one-off but should be cherished all the more for that.

We should also be realistic about how many kids will make it at Old Trafford if we are also to challenge to trophies. Oh, and try to enjoy it - I think that may be what it is about as well as winning - let's try and enjoy this crazy roller-coaster that LVG and Ed have us strapped to :devil:
 
Sir A1ex said:
Interesting, I don't think I would. I genuinely think I've taken more joy from the existence of that core of player in our team over the years than I would have from one extra league title.
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Its a hypothetical situation. In such a scenario, you have no idea of the class of 92. You just have players coming in and playing exciting football. The biggest club in the world is modeled on that. I bet RM fans are crying in bed every night thinking they are not bringing youth players through. Winning matters and only a loser keeps giving excuses. Arsenal of the past 10 years won nothing, but theie excuse was always "well we play better football". Nobody cares. Nobody will remember how they played in 10-20 years. But people will be talking of our double and Ronaldo's 42 goals for ages. That's what winning does.

Let me just twist your question a bit. If we win the league this season with the so called 'Gaalacticos',add few more and win the treble next year, would you not be happy??. Or, consider a scenario where we just tried promoting the youth and preserve our "identity" and get to bottom half of the table this year, with Liverpool winning the league, Arsenal winning the CL, Chelsea FA cup and City the league cup...

Which one would you rather want??..
 
Sir A1ex said:
Do you have a price though... 10 more league titles and 5 ECLs?

Or, if not... what if we start taking trophies away? You can keep either the Class of '92 or our last three league titles, which do you dump?
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Obvious it's easier to say in hypotheticals, but I wouldn't swap our history for anything in terms of better numbers. I love our history and the players that made it, and for me the memories of those years growing up trump sheer numbers.
 
What inspires this bizarre question "Is winning everything?"?

From the tone of some posts here, you'd think United shipped off Jesus Christ, not Danny Welbeck. I get some of the disappointment in the sale off Danny Welbeck, but surely it rises nowhere the level of the sale of Stam, Beckham or van Nistelrooy. Get a grip.

As for the "Is winning everything?" question itself, of course. We wouldn't assassinate opposing managers or resort to other crimes in the name of winning. Winning is the objective, but it's not the objective. You want to win with honor and within the rules of the game. And within reason, the club's traditions.

We've shipped off young British footballers before and will do so again. We've survived those traumas and will survivee the absence of Danny Welbeck.
 
Rado_N said:
Obvious it's easier to say in hypotheticals, but I wouldn't swap our history for anything in terms of better numbers. I love our history and the players that made it, and for me the memories of those years growing up trump sheer numbers.
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How about worse numbers. Same players.Same core. Same youth system. 1/3 of the trophies won?...
 
bleedred said:
Let me just twist your question a bit. If we win the league this season with the so called 'Gaalacticos',add few more and win the treble next year, would you not be happy??. Or, consider a scenario where we just tried promoting the youth and preserve our "identity" and get to bottom half of the table this year, with Liverpool winning the league, Arsenal winning the CL, Chelsea FA cup and City the league cup...

Which one would you rather want??..
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Well, that's easy, and it's what I mean about everybody being on a spectrum. Of course I'll be ecstatic with anything the Gaalacticos win, and of course I'd take that over being bottom half with home-grown players. But make the pay-off smaller, and there comes a point where the enjoyment of winning with home-grown kids becomes a factor.

Would you rather win the league by 6 points with Gaalacticos, or 5 points with academy products?

By the way, as an aside, it's easy to presume that I dream of a team of XI home-grown players. While that would be quite something, it's not the United "ideal" (for want of a better phrase) that I'm really talking about. Part of our DNA has always also been to identify the best players coming through at other clubs, and also to smash the transfer record for a superstar every now and then... it's about balance for me.
 
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Gannicus said:
What inspires this bizarre question "Is winning everything?"?

From the tone of some posts here, you'd think United shipped off Jesus Christ, not Danny Welbeck. I get some of the disappointment in the sale off Danny Welbeck, but surely it rises nowhere the level of the sale of Stam, Beckham or van Nistelrooy. Get a grip.
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As explained it's the way that some people seem to be baffled by the logic that you might ever chose one player over a better player, for reasons beyond just their ability.

The specifics of whether Welbeck is worth worrying about has been discussed plenty elsewhere. This is about the underlying mindset.

Gannicus said:
Winning is the objective, but it's not the objective.
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I see (I don't see really).
 
Sir A1ex said:
Well, that's easy, and it's what I mean about everybody being on a spectrum. Of course I'll be ecstatic with anything the Gaalacticos win, and of course I'd take that over being bottom half with home-grown players. But make the pay-off smaller, and there come a point where the enjoyment of winning with home-grown kids becomes a factor.

Would you rather win the league by 6 points with Gaalacticos, or 5 points with academy products?

By the way, as an aside, it's easy to presume that I dream of a team of XI home-grown players. While that would be quite something, it's not the United "ideal" (for want of a better phrase) that I'm really talking about. Part of our DNA has always also been to identify the best players coming through at other clubs, and also to smash the transfer record for a superstar every now and then... it's about balance for me.
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That's easier said than done.

My point is simple. No club has any identity. Its just an illusion created by the fans so as to have an one up manship against their rivals. It keeps changing with the times.. We sacked a manager in record time last year. We are having a Non British manager for the first time.. Is that loss of identity?.SAF sold of one of the brightest prospects the club produced in this generation. was he against the identity of the club?.
even if I agree the club has an identity, What is it suppossed to be?. Bringing youth players through??... How does selling one youth player equate to losing the identity. Its a complete overreaction by the fans and some people are reacting as if we have shutdown our youth academy.
 
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Winning is the objective, but it's not the objective.
I see (I don't see really).

Ooops, typo. This is what I meant write:

Winning is the primary objective, but it's not the only objective.


As supporters, what we all want to see is the club we support lift the prem trophy. We would also like to see our club do so in style, as opposed to playing "negative football". Ideally, we'd see our club play lots of English players. But "style" and "homegrown talent" are bonuses, not the primary objective objective itself.

There is something to be lamented about the evolution of top flight English football. "Foreigners" have invaded our pitch (well, your pitch, as I am an American) but that ship sailed a long, long time ago. Cantona, Schmeichel, van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, van Persie and now Di Maria and Falcao -- our best players have been non-Brits for some now.

If there's anything we've just lost, we've lost the conceit that there IS something truly unique about United's Britishness. I'm no scholar of Arsenal and Liverpool but it seems to me both were very "British" before they were no longer very British. This is simply true of top English prem sides in general -- look at Chelsea and City. If we're to have any hope of competing with them for the prem trophy we have to attract and retain the best football talent the world has to offer. Look at Arsenal -- they've got a great young English midfielder in Jack Wilshere, but if the chance to pick up Mesut Ozil (who we could have picked up if our British manager, David Moyes, wasn't such a pussy) presented itself Wenger couldn't say no. Wenger has two exciting young wide mids in the Ox and Walcott, but he didn't pass up the chance to pick up Sanchez.

Louis would have been fukking insane to pass up the chance to pick up Di Maria and Falcao.
 
traditions and values of everything around us changes with time. to expect a football club to not change at all over time would be unreasonable. that being said deeming tradition as "insignificant" is incorrect as well since it forms a major part of the "identity" of the club.

we are known as a club that wins. that is our identity. we're also known as a club that promotes young players which is also an integral part of our identity. that is part of the reason we hired moyes and it was the same reason we hired Van Gaal as well. both are good at identifying young talented players and developing them.

on the sporting side its great to have players that have played together for a long time through youth squads to the first team.

on the emotional side its satisfying to see young players develop and succeed and be loyal to the club that honed their skills

on the financial side, the club also saves money if we produce world class talents from within

But such idealism cant exist in the football world anymore because of the amount of money at stake. Football is all about making money now and if United have to be a successful club (which is as part of its identity as promoting young players) then they will have to make certain sacrifices.

Replacing Welbeck with Falcao is one such sacrifice. In the grand scheme of things this is one very small insignificant blip.

Van Gall will focus on what he was hired to do i.e. get this team back to winning ways and promote youth players that can be world class players. If Welbeck is not world class by LVGs standards then lets trust that decision and move on.

Winning is important and so is promoting young players and both have mutually existed at united for the last 20 years. i dont think LVG will change that. he was brought in to maintain that tradition. because thats our identity and also because its financially feasible.
 
bleedred said:
My point is simple. No club has any identity. Its just an illusion created by the fans so as to have an one up manship against their rivals.
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Maybe so, but that doesn't detract from supporters' enjoyment of seeing youth products succeed. Doesn't have to be unique to United... I've seen people on here claiming that winning is the core of our identity - I'm not sure we could claim sole interest in that!
 
Through good times and bad the club have always strived for success

Success used to be purely about winning.... I suppose success takes different forms now

Profits, big signings, big deals seem to give a small number of us a lot of pleasure

In sport at any level what is the point if you aren't trying to win
 
For me it's all about sadness and happiness.

When the team lose and play badly, i'm upset.
When the team lose and play good football, i'm sad but proud (which lead to happiness).
When the team win and play badly, i'm upset.
When the team win and play good football, i'm happy.

When i see a new product of the academy, i'm happy
When i see a product of the academy leave i'm sad and rarely upset.
 
The class of 92 is loved because it was successful. Nobody likes Cleverley now.

Cantona wasn't home grown, but he's a United legend.

We would love to see our home grown player succeed and they should be given the chance to prove themselves, but if they're not good enough then I'd rather see the team win by buying better players.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I watch Ireland regularly, they're muck a lot of the time but delight me with any form of win, regardless of performance. So as an Irish football fan I would say winning is everything.

Whereas watching Manchester United I want to enjoy the football on display, I want to be excited, so I would not agree that winning is everything as a Manchester United supporter.
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Get to feck, Kid. I go to the Aviva too. Delight has nothing to do with it.
 
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