I just want to see my team play good football and win football matches. Whether they be homegrown or foreign players, I don't give a muck as long as they're producing the goods out on the football pitch and entertaining me. The players we're currently producing aren't good enough to do that so you can hardly complain when we try and remedy it with players that can.
Is winning everything?
- Thread starter Sir A1ex
- Start date
Speak for yourself, a wins a win for Ireland. I don't expect miracles.
In response to thread title.
Yes.
Yes.
Winning isn't everything, playing beautiful football & winning is everything
Is having youth players in the team everything ?
I agree winning trophies isn't everything, but nonethelss you can't disagree about the fact it is important, not just from a fans irrational perspective but simply as a long term succes factor for the club in general. Without succes no exposure, no exposure no money. Not winning anything for a prolonged period of time is detrimental to a club, just look at how Liverpool fell off their perch and have been struggling all these years to get back on it. Wheter you like it or not Football is a business that is driven by exposure, our long term success has put us in a very comfortable position for the forseeable future but absence of future success can certainly endanger this at the risk of getting sucked in a vicious cricle that can prove quite difficult to get out from. Not being in europe is something we can handle for one season or a couple at most before it really starts impacting the club in a serious way, not winning trophies can be sustained for a longer period but if one wants to remain a topclub, one needs success, it is that simple.
Now I'am a foreigner and I don't care much about the british culture at United, I don't mind it, but it is not the reason I support United. I support United because it has a winning mentality which allows it to overcome any obstacle, tackle any challenge and be majorly succesfull in whatever it does. I loved to see that mentality embodied by SAF and the way he had his teams play, I love the heroic stories about the reslience from the team to bounce back of the Munich airdisaster and how other clubs might have been finished by such a tragedy while at United it just made them stronger and resultated bascially into a hisotry filled with glory and success. Obviously I'd prefer us to be succesfull without spending so much on foreign players, working with young talents from our own academy and being a forerunner of english football culture, but to me this a preffered means but not an end goal on its own. If this way of doing things proves to be unsuccesful than I like us to be pragmatic enough to put it aside and look for diffrent ways to achieve our goals. What is essential for me is that we don't lower our ambitions as a club, don't lower the benchmark. It has been exactly that which has been bothering me over the years, people simply accepting clubs like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munchen (and since last year you can add alot of other football clubs to that list) to be beter/more succesfull and attractive than us. People suggesting they can accept a transitional period of several years, even without european football, watching bad football and accepting below par performances. For me that is far more unacceptable than for example changing our policy on british vs foreign footballers and even our altering our youth policy. For some people, playing with british young academy products and not spending much on foreign players is the United way which made us so succesfull, I don't agree, for me the United way is simply having an almost maniacal winning mentality, having extremley ambitious standards and goals and being very pragmatic about them. I think those qualities are some of the key ingredients to success (not just in football but also in business f.e.) and it has made United into what it is today and it has made it into the football the club I started supporting.
Now as i said I don't mind the british culture and attention on working with young talents and doing things a little differentley than others but not if it proves to be counterproductive and unsuccesfull. Football has changed, the way to do things has changed and if United is to inert to change it modus operandi because of some deep rooted cultural ideas, than I don't see these cultural ideas as enabling anymore but as an obstacle which needs to be removed. An example is Arsenal, I think Arsenal also wants to have a focus on young players and being different than other clubs in the way they do things, but they are far to focussed upon it and despite being unsuccesfull not willing to change their strategy. Some may call this admirable, I call this naive, the seperation line I agree is subjective and very thin but the applicable measure for me is long term success, once this becomes endangered I think you need to be pragmatic enough to change your ways. United is United and not Arsenal for example because it isn't naive, it is pragmatic. Pragmatic enough to realise the way forward is to focus less on british players and our own academy and a bit more on foreigners, focus a bit less on young talented players and a bit more on established star players. Not that we have to be extremist about it, developping young potential still has a place and preserving british culture still is important but not as much reaching our ambitious goals and to do that now we need to spend more and do certain things that might be viewed as un-united-like.
Ofcourse everybody is entitled their own opnion and their own point of view, I can certainly imagine people supporting United for other reasons than their winning mentality, maybay the local manchester/british idenity is the reason you support this club or because you love watching young footballers develop. Yet I think being succesfull is more important than both these things as it has a far bigger impact on the future of this club, espeically in the increasingly competitive world of football. I could for example accept your view if you'd prefer seeing United as a midtable or even championship club for a long time if it means doing things the "United-way" (and in addition seeing our financial position and long term attractivness deteriorate) over being the dominant club in the PL and in extension europe for a very long time and being the most attractive club in the world and being in the best financial position possible if it means spending alot of money on foreigners players at the expense of certain talented young academy products and the manchester/british culture in general. If you prefer the latter than you views are nonsensible imo, your point of view and the sensibility of the point of view depends on your preffered end goal, with me it is clearly being highly ambitious and succesfull and being winners over doing it the "United-way".
I agree winning trophies isn't everything, but nonethelss you can't disagree about the fact it is important, not just from a fans irrational perspective but simply as a long term succes factor for the club in general. Without succes no exposure, no exposure no money. Not winning anything for a prolonged period of time is detrimental to a club, just look at how Liverpool fell off their perch and have been struggling all these years to get back on it. Wheter you like it or not Football is a business that is driven by exposure, our long term success has put us in a very comfortable position for the forseeable future but absence of future success can certainly endanger this at the risk of getting sucked in a vicious cricle that can prove quite difficult to get out from. Not being in europe is something we can handle for one season or a couple at most before it really starts impacting the club in a serious way, not winning trophies can be sustained for a longer period but if one wants to remain a topclub, one needs success, it is that simple.
Now I'am a foreigner and I don't care much about the british culture at United, I don't mind it, but it is not the reason I support United. I support United because it has a winning mentality which allows it to overcome any obstacle, tackle any challenge and be majorly succesfull in whatever it does. I loved to see that mentality embodied by SAF and the way he had his teams play, I love the heroic stories about the reslience from the team to bounce back of the Munich airdisaster and how other clubs might have been finished by such a tragedy while at United it just made them stronger and resultated bascially into a hisotry filled with glory and success. Obviously I'd prefer us to be succesfull without spending so much on foreign players, working with young talents from our own academy and being a forerunner of english football culture, but to me this a preffered means but not an end goal on its own. If this way of doing things proves to be unsuccesful than I like us to be pragmatic enough to put it aside and look for diffrent ways to achieve our goals. What is essential for me is that we don't lower our ambitions as a club, don't lower the benchmark. It has been exactly that which has been bothering me over the years, people simply accepting clubs like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munchen (and since last year you can add alot of other football clubs to that list) to be beter/more succesfull and attractive than us. People suggesting they can accept a transitional period of several years, even without european football, watching bad football and accepting below par performances. For me that is far more unacceptable than for example changing our policy on british vs foreign footballers and even our altering our youth policy. For some people, playing with british young academy products and not spending much on foreign players is the United way which made us so succesfull, I don't agree, for me the United way is simply having an almost maniacal winning mentality, having extremley ambitious standards and goals and being very pragmatic about them. I think those qualities are some of the key ingredients to success (not just in football but also in business f.e.) and it has made United into what it is today and it has made it into the football the club I started supporting.
Now as i said I don't mind the british culture and attention on working with young talents and doing things a little differentley than others but not if it proves to be counterproductive and unsuccesfull. Football has changed, the way to do things has changed and if United is to inert to change it modus operandi because of some deep rooted cultural ideas, than I don't see these cultural ideas as enabling anymore but as an obstacle which needs to be removed. An example is Arsenal, I think Arsenal also wants to have a focus on young players and being different than other clubs in the way they do things, but they are far to focussed upon it and despite being unsuccesfull not willing to change their strategy. Some may call this admirable, I call this naive, the seperation line I agree is subjective and very thin but the applicable measure for me is long term success, once this becomes endangered I think you need to be pragmatic enough to change your ways. United is United and not Arsenal for example because it isn't naive, it is pragmatic. Pragmatic enough to realise the way forward is to focus less on british players and our own academy and a bit more on foreigners, focus a bit less on young talented players and a bit more on established star players. Not that we have to be extremist about it, developping young potential still has a place and preserving british culture still is important but not as much reaching our ambitious goals and to do that now we need to spend more and do certain things that might be viewed as un-united-like.
Ofcourse everybody is entitled their own opnion and their own point of view, I can certainly imagine people supporting United for other reasons than their winning mentality, maybay the local manchester/british idenity is the reason you support this club or because you love watching young footballers develop. Yet I think being succesfull is more important than both these things as it has a far bigger impact on the future of this club, espeically in the increasingly competitive world of football. I could for example accept your view if you'd prefer seeing United as a midtable or even championship club for a long time if it means doing things the "United-way" (and in addition seeing our financial position and long term attractivness deteriorate) over being the dominant club in the PL and in extension europe for a very long time and being the most attractive club in the world and being in the best financial position possible if it means spending alot of money on foreigners players at the expense of certain talented young academy products and the manchester/british culture in general. If you prefer the latter than you views are nonsensible imo, your point of view and the sensibility of the point of view depends on your preffered end goal, with me it is clearly being highly ambitious and succesfull and being winners over doing it the "United-way".
I'm sure all this happens now and will continue to happen even though
we sold...DANNY WELBECK!!! 
What is united way?
Barca had more la messia players during their spell of dominance, do they bleat about Barcelona way?
92 is a very good fortunate strings of event, you can't use that as a mean to say that united have emphasized on youth.
To be blatantly honest, all the teams bar sugar daddy clubs give their youth a chance, it's not only us.
Even the likes of madrid have their cassilas and ramos, raul, etc.
This united way is just some romanised version of our success to further glorify our winning period.
Here's a brutally honest question:
When was the last time our academy product obtained world class status?
I can only think of the class of 92, and the following after that just turns out to be dependable squad players.
Barca had more la messia players during their spell of dominance, do they bleat about Barcelona way?
92 is a very good fortunate strings of event, you can't use that as a mean to say that united have emphasized on youth.
To be blatantly honest, all the teams bar sugar daddy clubs give their youth a chance, it's not only us.
Even the likes of madrid have their cassilas and ramos, raul, etc.
This united way is just some romanised version of our success to further glorify our winning period.
Here's a brutally honest question:
When was the last time our academy product obtained world class status?
I can only think of the class of 92, and the following after that just turns out to be dependable squad players.
Ask anyone who followed United home or away last and they will tell you how great it was, yeah we were shit but it was probably one of the best season I have experienced. So to answer your question, no it's not all about winning.
Winning everything is everything.
If we have to metaphorically sell our soul to win and in turn end up buying mercenary players to become keep up with the oils rich Jones's next door then winning in my opinion is not everything. Football like the banks did will eventually implode. The sheiks will move on, but we will always be Manchester Utd.
I love winning and hate loosing but that said I would rather come 4/5th with a team full of players passionate about the history of the club and what the shirt represents rather that get artificially excited that some over paid mercenary team has come 2nd in the league.
I am sure these feelings are felt more keenly by fans who have been brought up by parents who were on the terraces in the dark days and not the franchise glory hunters that global brands attract.
I love winning and hate loosing but that said I would rather come 4/5th with a team full of players passionate about the history of the club and what the shirt represents rather that get artificially excited that some over paid mercenary team has come 2nd in the league.
I am sure these feelings are felt more keenly by fans who have been brought up by parents who were on the terraces in the dark days and not the franchise glory hunters that global brands attract.
brilliant post.-------------------
I think we should go super traditional on some Bilbao type route and only recruit lads from Manchester.
I was a bit out of it when I posted that.
You can't have your cake and eat it.
First let's start winning. Then we can build that "family" of cult players.
First let's start winning. Then we can build that "family" of cult players.
Yes, winning is most important. Although having said that I think 99% of us are sick of watching the way we have been playing the last four or five years. Especially when you watch a team like Liverpool or City and the way they play. Priority is to start winning again, but eventually emphasis has to be put on the way we win.
It depends who we are playing. Against Liverpool, yes winning is everything.
While the premise of this thread (selling a backup striker) is ridiculous, I'll have a go at the topic in general.
Winning is the main goal of course. It is what everyone in football works towards and what every fan wants the most. However, I wouldn't say it is everything.
We all love the game because it basically brings us entertainment and potentially, joy. And it's not just winning that one derives that from. For some, watching a young player come up through he ranks and make it at his club, gives him some satisfaction. For another maybe technical possession football does. For someone else it's possible that watching a feisty contest or a match full of pace and power makes a difference. But most common factor amongst most people that makes watching this game, or their team, enjoyable, is winning. There's absolutely no doubt about.
And among those other factors I mentioned that are unique to everyone and usually of less importance than winning, I think the big mistake people make is of thinking that it's drawn up in black and white according to their own beliefs. I love when a star is born at United, but for me it doesn't matter so much if it's welbeck from the academy or an Evra/vidic from abroad. I love youth being given a chance but I don't see why it's necessarily the right way. I have no issues with how Chelsea function. I think the magic of the game is in the variety it throws up. Long ball football, possession football, counter attacking football, youth, experience, galacticos, la Masia, bring it all on.
For me personally, I've become more and more interesting in the football being more attractive. Right now I give that precedence over giving youth a chance. Also, to be fair, LVG knows that this is not the time to be sentimental or rigid in values. First and foremost he has to get the first team functioning and used to winning again. He will priorities the rest after. I've pretty sure about that.
Winning is the main goal of course. It is what everyone in football works towards and what every fan wants the most. However, I wouldn't say it is everything.
We all love the game because it basically brings us entertainment and potentially, joy. And it's not just winning that one derives that from. For some, watching a young player come up through he ranks and make it at his club, gives him some satisfaction. For another maybe technical possession football does. For someone else it's possible that watching a feisty contest or a match full of pace and power makes a difference. But most common factor amongst most people that makes watching this game, or their team, enjoyable, is winning. There's absolutely no doubt about.
And among those other factors I mentioned that are unique to everyone and usually of less importance than winning, I think the big mistake people make is of thinking that it's drawn up in black and white according to their own beliefs. I love when a star is born at United, but for me it doesn't matter so much if it's welbeck from the academy or an Evra/vidic from abroad. I love youth being given a chance but I don't see why it's necessarily the right way. I have no issues with how Chelsea function. I think the magic of the game is in the variety it throws up. Long ball football, possession football, counter attacking football, youth, experience, galacticos, la Masia, bring it all on.
For me personally, I've become more and more interesting in the football being more attractive. Right now I give that precedence over giving youth a chance. Also, to be fair, LVG knows that this is not the time to be sentimental or rigid in values. First and foremost he has to get the first team functioning and used to winning again. He will priorities the rest after. I've pretty sure about that.
So some of you are seriously asking whether, in a professional sport, winning is everything?
Of course it fecking is. This isn't your kick-about in the park where you only invite your friends. The only objective in professional sports is winning. Every thing else is post hoc rationalising.
Of course it fecking is. This isn't your kick-about in the park where you only invite your friends. The only objective in professional sports is winning. Every thing else is post hoc rationalising.
It might not be everything, but it is the most important thing.
Personally, I'm enjoying this period. Obviously I don't like losing games and being laughed at by f*cking scousers, but to me its like a game of Championship Manager where you take a new team languishing at the bottom all the way to the top. Its all about the challenge. I'm a bit older now and have been a fan for 30 years so I don't get wound up about it like I used to.
I also think that when we start playing entertaining football we'll start winning too
That's a load of tosh.
If players chooses Real / Barca / Chelsea / City its not only because they're mercenaries, but they're winners who wants to win a trophy to add to their CV. Who among City / Chelsea / Arsenal / Manchester United are more likely to win a trophy? I really think it won't be us.
And let's not play a houlier than thou attitude, we paid our dross a good fortune, what's to say they're not mercenaries? Does players like Valencia, Young, Cleverly, RvP, even Rooney, Smailing et al really loves the club?
They'd feck off as soon as another club that's stupid enough willing to pay them for being a dross, sadly most other teams are smarter and more ruthless than us.
Besides, take a look at City, I don't think Aguero, Yaya Toure, and all are not passionate. It's disgusting to hear that passion only belongs to "cheap" player. Most footballers are passionate about winning, it's not only us.
And players like RvP, Kagawa, Nani, Young are all bought as mercenaries, do you think they would play for us simply because of their passion for zombie football and love the club?
These are Giggs' feelings on the matter of winning (from an article in the Telegraph) :
“I always took defeat badly. Winning was never as strong a feeling as losing. Winning was over quite quickly and when you suffered a defeat it lingered, it always had a bigger effect on me. That’s not changed. But when you’re at United you’ve got to win trophies, simple as that. Coming seventh last year wasn’t good enough. We haven’t started well this season, but we have to look to win something. We’ve got to be looking to contest the Premier League and look to get back in the Champions League."
Try telling him winning isn't everything.
“I always took defeat badly. Winning was never as strong a feeling as losing. Winning was over quite quickly and when you suffered a defeat it lingered, it always had a bigger effect on me. That’s not changed. But when you’re at United you’ve got to win trophies, simple as that. Coming seventh last year wasn’t good enough. We haven’t started well this season, but we have to look to win something. We’ve got to be looking to contest the Premier League and look to get back in the Champions League."
Try telling him winning isn't everything.
I swear, given the amount of Welbeck threads in the last few days, you'd think Ronaldo left us again or something. A mediocre player that just so happened to be born in Manchester left us. End of the world as we know it. Ffs.
Of course winning isn't everything. Now, playing attractive football and getting on the right side of the scoresheet. That's the whole point of a football club. If you want to be classy and fancy, go join a beauty pageant. If you care more for a single player than for the prosperity and well being of the club, I got little else to say to you.
Of course winning isn't everything. Now, playing attractive football and getting on the right side of the scoresheet. That's the whole point of a football club. If you want to be classy and fancy, go join a beauty pageant. If you care more for a single player than for the prosperity and well being of the club, I got little else to say to you.
I'm sure all this happens now and will continue to happen even thoughwe sold...DANNY WELBECK!!!
Is that a deliberate attempt at some kind of surreal comedy, or have you completely missed the point? You do realise that the part you highlighted has absolutely nothing to do with the sale of Welbeck, right?
Man Utd sold Brian Kidd, youth academy product, European cup final 1968 goalscorer and winner. The way the caf has reacted to Welbeck leaving you'd have think we'd never moved on a good young player before.
A manager makes a judgment on the basis of what he sees before him on the training ground and in games. Sometimes that judgment turns out to be right, sometimes wrong.
Most time people says "winning is not everything" is when "they're not winning anything"
Indeed.
Scouser mentality, they won nothing last year but harp on how great they played. I'd rather have the trophy in the bag.
Actually I disagree with this. I think if this was 1992 and we'd just lost the title to Leeds, having not won the title since the 60s, people would look at anyone asking 'is winning everything?' like they were crazy.
Because we have won so much people can get these sentimental notions in their head. If, for example, we go 10-15 years watching City, Chelsea and the Scousers trading the title I'm sure nobody will be saying 'its ok, winning isn't everything'.
Vincent Kompany is a great example of this. The top players also have a certain degree of professional pride, they want to perform and show how good they are, when they are on the pitch money doesn't enter the equation.
I don't know how anyone can get involved in a competitive sport (watching or playing) and not have winning as the primary objective. But maybe that's just me? I've always been stupidly competitive and hate losing at anything. If United play absolutely woefully and we win one nil, then I'm happy. If we play brilliantly but drop points we should have won then I'm pissed off. That will never change. I can see how going to a game with a bunch of your mates and having a brilliant day out might make the result a little less important but surely the exact same day out would be more enjoyable if it ends with a United win than it would be if we lost?
So yes, winning is everything. However, if you're talking about how we win then it's a different discussion. I absolutely feel more pleased when a homegrown player who I've watched since he was in the academy plays an important role. I feel a much stronger connection with players of that ilk than I do with expensive foreign imports. It's not a nationality thing either. I desperately wanted Guisseppe Rossi to make it at United and Macheda's winner against Villa was so much the sweeter because of who scored it. I've been left a little cold by this transfer window and the imminent departures of Welbeck and Cleverley. They've been unlucky enough to have two of their most important, formative years blighted by playing as part of a flawed squad during a period of managerial turnover. Who knows what might have happened if Fergie hadn't bought himself a very expensive retirement present in Van Persie and chosen a succcesor more capable of hitting the ground running than David Moyes? Perhaps they'd have remained valuable squad players? It's hard not to feel mixed emotions about the two of them reaching the end of their United careers, no matter who we sign to replace them.
It's also partly to do with length of service, so the connection I feel goes beyond whichever academy the players come from. Hence, I would feel much happier if Rooney banged in 30 goals this season than I would if Van Persie did the same. If - against all odds - Anderson blossomed into a central midfielder of real talent I would be fecking delighted. So much more than I would be if Blind or Herrera turned out to be equally as talented. Takes me a few years to consider any new addition a Manchester United player and I find it hard to get as thrilled as many do on here by new arrivals, when that means losing players I've been following at the club for years. I know that this doesn't make much sense - considering new players often increase the chance of winning - but that's just the way it is. If we bought an entirely new squad tomorrow - no matter how incredibly talented they might be - I would feel considerably less emotionally invested in each Manchester United victory than I would have done in the past.
That all makes sense, other than I think you are blurring the concepts of winning being the primary objective and winning being everything (ie the only objective). You say both in the post.
Consider the above line - given the understandable reduction on your emotional invovment, would you rather we bought that new squad and won a couple of extra matches with it meaning we finished third, or that we kept the squad you are familiar with and finsihed 4th?
You should agree then, that's what I meant.
That actually winning is everything, when you're not winning you create a false self assuring things like "winning is not everything" because you didn't win.
of course winning is, ultimately, everything. it's the whole point of sport in general. none of the players are going out there thinking, "well, as long as play well, that's OK". they want to win. we should want our team to win.
look at the stick arsene and arsenal have received in the last 10 years because of the very fact they hadn't won anything. sure they played well, brought through youngsters and so on, but it was ultimately irrelevant because they hadn't won.
look at the stick arsene and arsenal have received in the last 10 years because of the very fact they hadn't won anything. sure they played well, brought through youngsters and so on, but it was ultimately irrelevant because they hadn't won.
People keeps on mentioning "Loves the club"
Let's first define how do we perceive one player as "loves the club". I'm sure players like Giggs / Scholes / Beckham / Neville pass the test. But what about lesser player? Can we say Valencia and Young didn't love the club? Does playing well is the only barometer of loving the club? For all we know Young could have bleed red, but we never says he loves United, simply because he's shit.
Does Welbeck really loves the club? He might supported us, he might be a fan, but at the end of the day he chooses the advancement of his career above us. Can we really say he loves us?
Let's first define how do we perceive one player as "loves the club". I'm sure players like Giggs / Scholes / Beckham / Neville pass the test. But what about lesser player? Can we say Valencia and Young didn't love the club? Does playing well is the only barometer of loving the club? For all we know Young could have bleed red, but we never says he loves United, simply because he's shit.
Does Welbeck really loves the club? He might supported us, he might be a fan, but at the end of the day he chooses the advancement of his career above us. Can we really say he loves us?
Yes. Yes it is. What do you say before every game? "I hope we win today" or "I hope we play 11 local lads and don't get battered. It's the taking part that counts"? In an ideal world we will continue to have a blend of the worlds best talents along with a strong British homegrown core in the team. People are going way overboard with this Welbeck thing. When will you get into your heads he wanted to leave? Plus him and Chich leaving makes James Wilson our fourth striker and opens the way for him into the side.
On a game by game basis I will always prefer a win over a defeat but you're right, I would definitely find the latter of those two scenarios more enjoyable and rewarding.
Completely agree. We are not likely to see a group of players like the class of 92 emerge from the youth teams together again.
If the talent is there in the youth academy, then yes of course they will get a chance in the first team- look at Januzaj. Van Gaal has a reputation for bringing through youth players at any club he has been at. So I'm not worried the club is losing it's identity.
We can't please everyone all summer, fans have slated the club for a lack of spending in the past 5 years. And now we have spent a lot of money and brought in some very good players and the fans are still not happy, because we sold a player who came through the ranks. Get over it.
I would say winning is everything in football. Of course we would all like to win by having a team full of academy products. But if the talent is not there then you can't blame the club for spending big money to win.
Birthday cake gate and 3 manufactured pay rises. For the record I would have sold Rooney when he bent the club over a couple of seasons ago.
As for young being a mercenary player, that's a silly comment. I am not sure what you definition of mercenary is but mine is; A player that is willing to join a club the are ambivalent about in a league they don't favour as the money is just too good to refuse.
Young has never expressed a desire to play in Spain, he is at the biggest club in his chosen league. Falco on the other hand courts Real Madrid publicly on twitter and in the press.
Also we have PSG today making revelations Di Maria wanted to join PSG, I am not sure of their validity but again not great to hear from a UTD perspective.
All I crave is a team that gives their all until the 94th min and longer if required and I am not sure on a wet Tuesday night in a lower profile game players like Di Maria will stand up and be counted the way Utd legends of the past like Keane, vidic etc have.