Agree with this. So 1 solution would be for La Liga to distribute the tv right more evenly. But will Real and Barca do this? Not a chance. So why should the premier league destroy what it has built to help out the Spanish and Italian leagues. Would they do the same. Not a chance.
Is the European super league back? | United Statement: We remain committed to UEFA
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no dude what you need to do is making rules so that clubs can spend about the same or not greater than 25% than any other club.
That's how you make things competitive.
It doesn't matter if you give Valencia,Sassuolo,Paok or whatever not elite club a bigger chunk of the money if the owners of big clubs or PL can spende 10times out of their own pocket.
What does it matter if you give Empoli 50-70m in tv rights if Juventus owner can pull out 200m/year to cover losses?
Inter and Milan under Berlusconi and Moratti always had overspent their revenue by 70m or more so how could a Fiorentina or the likes be competitive if you don't owners willingly able to fork out money like a mecenate?
This is not the proper direction.
Why eastern clubs back then were competitive? because less money involved more chances for everyone.
So which direction football should take?
new rules.
We should follow NBA with luxury tax and the likes.
Wage caps
No agents robbing money from the sport
In a utopia any club from first to last standing in a league shouldn't have a bigger revenue greater than +20%.
But there are things like private sponsorships for shirts or tickets sold that are above the fixed tv deals.
So sharing more equally tv deals helps a bit but in the end useless if there are countries that own teams
If there are sponsors giving 200 to one team while giving 10 to others.
In the end the economic imbalance will always make that elite club unbeatable in the run for trophies by the smaller club walking only on its legs rather than having a rich owner pumping money in for his own fun or reasons.
Look Chelsea? Abramovich was lending money to Chelsea for free. Sometimes the loaner company would randomly forfeit its credit toward the debitor for fun.
= ulimited spending.
City having a country behind giving peanuts above the table , making false sponsorships like chinese owner with Inter and then giving more money with third party corps to his already paid staff and players.
So can we say sharing better tv money will make things fairier for everyone?
So no global revenue should be shared equally but you have to limit personal pocket money.
And we can bad mouth la Liga (Barca and Real) as much as we want but their way allowed in the past 10years to have only 2 non spanish CL winners being Liverpool and Chelsea
Their model brought the best players in recent history playing there and having la Liga being relevant world wide.
Fair for smaller teams? no. but thats how things are.
If la Liga has 2b revenue domestically+world wide it's thanks to Real and Barca not to Valence or Bilbao.
If things weren't that way their revenue would be half that money like Italy Serie A.
You'd have non relevant Barca and Real and a bit richer pockets for smaller teams owners.
The only club walking on its legs in a fair way it's Bayern Monaco which his winning Bundes Liga since 10 or 11 straight years without the smallest competition.
Their strongest competitors were Borussia almost 10years ago.
So what about fans of smaller teams that can't economically compete? they can't even dream of winning a league or compete internationally.
Sometimes they may win a national cup but that's the best they can aim to.
That's why sometimes I think that having the "big boys" compete with themselves letting smaller teams have a chance would be better for everyone.
Let's say you take out the best and make a ESL then you'd have a whole league being able to compete for victory.
If you take Barca,Real and Atletico from Liga, Juventus,Inter and Milan from Serie A.
Bayern monaco from Bundes and PSG from Ligue 1 those leagues would get interesting for any fans not related to those teams.
So we have to dig deeper than "Let's share 2b tv revenue equally with everyone"
Yep, which is why i mentioned a lot of money would need to be funneled in the lower divisions to keep them up - likely so much money as to defeat the purpose of the SL in the first place
Your other point is fair too, the domestic game moving towards Superleagues would kind of kill UEFA competitions as well - though to be honest, who gives a shit about that. Just have a small tournament between league winners at the end of the season for the european crown and be done with it. Leagues can bypass UEFA and organize it on their own too. Fewer legues means fewer teams so it would be viable i think
What an utter crock of shite. So the premier league is the most financially strong and prestigious league because, wait for it…. London is the capital of dirty money
It’s been said already on here multiple times but La liga and Serie A destroyed their own leagues.
They were superior leagues in the early noughties and the nineties but they self sabotaged.
Haven’t seen anyone mention it but in both Italy and Spain you have far too restrictive non eu rules. How do you expect a global audience when you don’t allow clubs to have more freedom in the transfer market. How do you expect to appeal to the non European markets?
The hilarious thing is Seria A literally brought these strict rules in place because the national team couldn’t handle losing to South Korea at the 2002 World Cup. Notice that since then the league has been on a downward spiral. You want to appeal to a global market but you completely limit players coming in from outside the European Union.. and then your clubs respond to that by cutting corners with fake passports, daft ‘joint ownership’ and phoney loan deals.
And in the backdrop of that, racism, ultras running riot, shit half full stadiums and match fixing and you wonder why nobody wants to watch your league.
It’s 2023 and and nobody in Spain and Italy has tweaked that it’s probably time to lift those daft restrictions.
You literally had the two greatest players of all time playing in your league for years for two of the biggest clubs in the world. Competing in more or less every champions league final for a decade. The minute that era came to an end it was the PL’s fault or rather the fault of London being the capital of dirty money….Absolute fecking mugs. You failed to capitalise on Ronaldo and Messi. That is your fault.
La liga definitely would have benefitted from better equally distributed tv rights also. Comparing it to the situation in France is stupid beyond belief. French football has never been a major league and doesn’t have clubs with the prestige that Spain and Italy does. It’s always been a feeder league like Holland.
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I mean not really. "Small" spanish sides and italian sides had plenty of big name players in the early 00s too. The PL's success comes from marketing itself better overseas, and a stronger domestic consumer base. This whole "League is successfull because it's competitive!" nonsense is just that - nonsense. A lie peddled by sky and apparently swalled up by the vast majority of its consumers. In reality from the start of the PL to 2012 the PL had 4 different league winners - over a span of 20 years. Number has since gone up to...7. In fact, from 1992 to 2012 both La Liga and Serie A had more different winners than the PL
I agree. Not to mention the advantage that being the best and most important English language football league gives it. With English being the lingua franca of the world, the PL has an enormous marketing and PR advantage over Spain, nevermind Italy or Germany.
in fact Spanish being the second best international language gave Liga lot of marketing to central and south America and they're the only ones that with national+global tv deals reach 2b/year income.
Still nothing compared to Premier League but still miles ahead than France,Germany or Italy
This is not a solution, i need you all to stop saying this like it's fact
You mean a domestic consumer base accepting being pimped out by Sky, but otherwise spot on
No, the reason is because the Premier League has the highest viewership by a considerable distance. Higher viewership = larger tv deals and sponsorships.
On top of that, England has a greater appetite to watch lower-level football than any other country. The Championship is by far the biggest second division in Europe for revenue (Only the PL, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 generate more revenue - yes, it is quite a lot bigger than the Dutch league). This means that English/Welsh clubs are actually richer than their counterparts before they even reach the top league.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was true for League 1 and League 2, also, in comparison to other European equivalents.
The spread of wealth is also a very significant factor in development. I still think people underestimate how important this has been to the growth of the league. The money even feeds down the leagues, though parachute payments etc. (is that even a things in other countries?)
Of course it is. They’ve literally had to sell away future tv rights for the clubs to specifically use on their training ground and stadiums.
It’s not just transfers that tv money can be useful for. The smaller La Liga clubs are just smaller examples of our situation
So you’re saying England should give their money away to foreign clubs?
More money is starting to float down the leagues. The PL and FL are already negotiating that. Shouldn’t that be the priority rather than trying to help Madrid sign Mbappe?
But isn't it what they'll do when they get into the SL? Distribute the money more evenly among every club so that a balance is maintained. Only difference being they want to skip the journey of the clubs in their own competition becoming big organically but rather bring in clubs from elsewhere so that they can use that to sell it to broadcasters.
Completely agree and correct
Bolded is very true. Average attendance in the championship this season is 18,448 (https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/championship/attendances) and the team with the lowest average attendance is Luton with 9,811.
Average attendance in La Liga 2 is 9,358 and Andorra have an average attendance of 2,085 (https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/esp-segunda-division-2022-2023/1/).
There are 15 teams that play in the 5th tier of English football that have higher average attendances than Andorra and Wrexham currently average 9,954.
4 teams in the 6th tier (Kidderminster, Chester, Hereford, Dulwich) have average attendances over 2,000.
Perhaps English people care more about football than anywhere else in Europe?
TBF, football structures have been changed for almost 30 years. I think using this idea can only be solved in the basic financial situations of European football. The structures seem to change too much to handle. I don't think we will see any Eastern European clubs in Belgium or Czechoslovakia in the European Cup final anymore. I reckon that if we want to see this again, it must be more than this, and that means even creating foreign-limitations rules again, which I think it's almost impossible in today's football here.
Exactly. My issue with it too. Barca & Madrid have ridden over everyone else to grab all the best players for the last 30 years, without a care for anyone else. Why would anyone risk their own league to bail them out?
And I'm saying that doesn't happen automatically through more equitable distribution (which is not a bad thing, mind!). Other clubs in Spain may become a bit more strong, but that doesn't improve the league's performance in Europe (as it weakens the top sides), neither does it increase revenue to PL levels.
There will always be an imbalance due to differences in global interest and how much the domestic audiences are willing to be fleeced. I don't think this should matter in European competition, so it's up to UEFA to find a way of leveling the playing ground (they won't)
I have no sympathy for Barcelona or Real or Super League acolytes, their arguments for a Super League are self centered and not around improving the game.
Teams agreed to individual sales in 1996 I think and everyone went crazy with spending.
Denilson arrived at Betis, Deportivo had 40 players on their squad, Valencia, Villarreal with Riquelme.
The problem is that they went bankrupt because all the teams were loss-making and the owners who arrived turned out to be ruinous. An Indian who sunk Racing, Piterman, the sheikh of Málaga.
The only one that resisted was Villarreal because it belongs to a very rich family. No doubt mismanagement and greed had a lot to do with it but I doubt that weakening the big two would have helped too much.
The question is whether the mid-table teams in England that are getting into debt will resist the market changes. I really don't know beyond the top teams.
Now imagine that everything in the Premier is as it is now, with its good management and publicity but Abramovich would have bought Valencia and Emirates would have bought Sevilla. Would we be in the same situation?
Yeah, that’s the prevalent issue with most small players in all industries after the Bolkestein directive from 15 years ago, and with the exact same arguments purpoted over this exact topic (fundamentally: current monopolies crying wolf
) … just to say, Italy 2023, taxi and sea shore license holders still make for the most vocal and hard-nosed opposition to any government will to open their sectors… and yet, consumers everywhere are very happy to buy their, say, Geox shoes for 30€ on Amazon instead of paying 90€ for the exact model at their local brick&mortar premises in the malls. Nothing is perfect, yet the EU is a veeeery powerful driver since its inception, and Qatar monies “lobbying” can only slow that same process in football, imho.Again some of the responses
It won't matter if midtable or lower table clubs gets more money but everyone should do everything in their power to keep Madrid, Barca, Juventus as super clubs by giving them more money or by limiting other clubs.
It won't matter if midtable or lower table clubs gets more money but everyone should do everything in their power to keep Madrid, Barca, Juventus as super clubs by giving them more money or by limiting other clubs.
I rescue this post from another thread, to ask you, what do you think will be decided regarding the super league?
The most fervent defenders frequently cite the monopoly and the impossibility of uefa to stop this, and cite basketball euroliga and skating as examples. Is it exactly the same?
Yep, all comes from the Bolkestein directive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolkestein_directive and no sector is shielded… so it is just the hard, difficult and understandable slog to compensate the aggrieved parties before implementing the liberalised model. In the basket EuroLeague case, the big boys play both that and their local league (trying to field their best teams in the former, of course, but football has the “second teams” or the “B squads” akready there for the local leagues, in case).
A better comparison would be the Premier League forming their own competition very much against the wishes of the FA.
The difference is that the Premier League had 18 clubs, including all the largest, and probably more beside, that wanted to join them. The ESL don't.
Well, if such proposal had the strength to change the status quo of European football they would take it seriously. If some people consider it disingenuous or not, I don't think that's the relevant factor.
Also, if they were into 1 billion debt, creating a competition with bigger income to try to reduce the gap and please the shareholders would look like a legitimate move to me.
Ok - I will say no English PL clubs will join - I guess it depends what form it takes. If we joined for example that's the end of football for me.
I think this is the bit that most people outside of England don’t appreciate. You could take away all sponsorship and tv money across Europe and English football would still have the biggest finances because its well supported BY FANS at all levels of the pyramid.
To this day foreign players and managers still mention the atmosphere of english stadiums at EVERY game because they arent used to seeing that level of support at smaller clubs.
Combine that level of support with good marketing, better financial distribution, english language broadcasts at times which are accessible globally and of course the Premier League has been able to grow and attract external investment.
As mentioned by others the borderline xenophobic rules put in place in serie a and la liga along with the greed of the top clubs is what has destroyed their leagues and prevented foreign interest and investment.
The fact that they are even considering this super league is further evidence of the fact that those clubs dont see the value of strengthening their domestic game.
The super league will happen, the top clubs will surivive whilst their domestic leagues crumble. This will drastically affect academies in those countries and reduce the amount of talent produced for their national teams and eventually the top clubs.
The sad thing is they think this will help them compete with the premier league. Barely 50% of premier league games are televised domestically and they havent even scratched the surface of selling direct to consumer via a premier league streaming service. Thats not even taking into account they could still unleash the full spending power of the billionaire owners by allowing owner funding.
Its a terrible idea (just like individual tv rights were) but they cant be told.
Can definitely see the likes of United v Madrid in Saudi in a competitive game. Quite depressing really but I expect it to happen within the next 10 years.
Again some of the responses
It won't matter if midtable or lower table clubs gets more money but everyone should do everything in their power to keep Madrid, Barca, Juventus as super clubs by giving them more money or by limiting other clubs.
Exactly, the new SL is still about preserving their status as they want to be the ones running it. Even if they equally spilt things at the start, how long before they revert to type and take the majority of the money.
This is now just about finding a way to compete with the PL as they destroyed the competitiveness of their own TV contracts with their own greed and mismanagement.
Forgive me for picking you out (and shortening your posts), it is done on my assumption that your contributions share an intrinsic value: grassroot ideology, which I adore. Would you (and the general public of course) mind sharing your thoughts on the following proposals?
A) EPL transfer tax: Continental FAs (on behalf of their prof. clubs) rule that no club is allowed to strike deals with EPL clubs directly, instead the FAs do and ask for a socket fee on top of the usual transfer costs. Could be dynamic, s.a. a formula that's based on the revenues of the EPL club, or static, € xM per player. Money's to be split among the prof. clubs in the seller's FA, to be invested in NT programs, or other grassrooty purposes.
-> An illawful move of jealousy, or is there more to it than that?
B) Tournament buy-ins: Clubs partcipating in European competitions have to pay a buy-in fee similar to poker tournaments. The fee is dynamic, f.e. dependent on revenues made in the season that saw them qualify for the event, or last 5 seasons, something like that. The pay-out is two-fold, with TV money distributed following key 1, and the buy-ins distributed following key 2 which is based on expected success, with a break-even point one round earlier. Example: the club with highest revenues is expected to reach the final, for a profit, break-even point is semifinal (± refunding of buy-in), and they lose on parts of their buy-in money if beaten in qf or before.
-> Outlining a scheme that could work, or too much trouble with 'uncertain' return-on-investments? (Although wonder what Laporte would have to say...)
C) Deprivatisation/deliberation of agency business: While players should be free to chose their representing agents, these guys need not necessarily be privateers. Instead they work as employees/cobtractors of domestic FAs and strike deals on behalf of their FAs, with the money going into an FAs fund instead of into their own pockets. Similar to above A), the money is used to strengthen the grassroot environment.
-> Illawful deprivation of individual (player) rights, or an acceptable sacrifice of agencies?
D) Tickle-down defunding NPOs UEFA and FIFA: at the end of every fiscal year, or every four-years-cycle, FIFAs funds (minus an operational minimum) are distributed among it's continental members. Rince and repeat with UEFA (end of fiscal year + above's share of FIFA funds) to its domestic FA members, and once again with FAs and their members.
-> Doable following the principle of subsidiarity in a bottom-up pyramid, with clubs as masters, or undoable, following the logics of panem and circenses?
Which of these A-D do you like, doubt, oppose, and why? Do you agree on the notion of a gordic knot, and that the sword to 'solve' the knot is or should be - grassrootily - in the hands of clubs and their servant FAs?
Kind regards
Whydah
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Why should Man Utd, Liverpool care about the league while Real and Barca do not and in that process, are winning the big European trophies? It's not about leagues vs leagues, it's about clubs (the reason the super league is a thing).
EDIT: point is that UEFA has failed to create a level playing field so either a super league will be created at some point or UEFA will reform. UEFA will never change IMO.
You’re missing the point though, why should anyone care about helping them out when they’ve done what they’ve wanted for decades with out a thought about anyone else?
secondly we must protect our own leagues. A new venture like this can go tits up, where does that leave you? Trying to win back friends in your own leagues
Id give it 2-3 years max. Already had the World Cup, Barca vs Real and Ronaldo's team vs PSG. Plus the boxing etc. They just need to figure out how to stop the fans rioting which is why they have top PR firms selling the Super league. They will figure it out
The 3 main protagonists are Barca, Madrid and Juve. 2 of them are financially fcuked. The other just wants the extra money because they couldn’t afford to do Haaland and Mbappe.
think about this, would they say anything or push anything if they didn’t want the money? The shoe was on the other foot for years. Now the money is currently going to the PL, it’s not fair? Sell your leagues better, make sure your own teams are getting fair share of the TV money (they aren’t, Barca and Madrid are taking most), get your own house in order first
With due respect I think it is you that is missing the point. It is not about helping anyone else but yourself (clubs). United, Milan, etc did not enter for the love of Madrid and the mess they have. It is about a system that allowed states to get involved in the game and have exceptional power, far more then an entity like UEFA can manage; the super league is a response to the destruction of the competition while govern by an impotent entity. The clubs, as they are, made an agreement that they and they alone can create a level playing field less everything becomes a play of nation states.
I do not agree with the super league, but in the situation we are in, it might just be the only solution to save football from being a toy to dictatorship nations. I for one would much rather see a Real Madrid vs Man United in a mega, super, BS league, then x dictatorship vs y dictatorship.
I'm not sure this will happen, too much Footie tradition in the most profitable leagues. Football would be just fine with half the amount of current money in the game, and i do think this crazy money, money, moneytisation of football, will begin to balance out and become more realistic.
Chelsea, this January, just blew the lid of everything and I'm not surprised the other club owners have responded with these soundings.. Chelsea have created the daftest model of Football club manaagement I could ever remember. The majority of managers, and club owners, and of course the fans in this country will do exactly the same as last time, and protest, disrupt and make our feelings clear.
BUT... Petrol money is quite an influence, and I can see Charity Shield in Dubai. But not much else. Football does not 'need' the amount of money spent at Chelsea, Newcastle, the crap at the Emirates, and the ownership models that we have had to endure.
More practically, I have no interest in small group of clubs just playing each other, year in, year out. Look at teams like Leicester, Sevilla, Nice, Atalanta... how can you tell me they shouldn't compete with, er, us for example.
It's nonsense. But greed is king.
Chelsea, this January, just blew the lid of everything and I'm not surprised the other club owners have responded with these soundings.. Chelsea have created the daftest model of Football club manaagement I could ever remember. The majority of managers, and club owners, and of course the fans in this country will do exactly the same as last time, and protest, disrupt and make our feelings clear.
BUT... Petrol money is quite an influence, and I can see Charity Shield in Dubai. But not much else. Football does not 'need' the amount of money spent at Chelsea, Newcastle, the crap at the Emirates, and the ownership models that we have had to endure.
More practically, I have no interest in small group of clubs just playing each other, year in, year out. Look at teams like Leicester, Sevilla, Nice, Atalanta... how can you tell me they shouldn't compete with, er, us for example.
It's nonsense. But greed is king.
Being in a different league doesn’t stop a club from being bought.
Unless you’re suggesting this should be a full time league rather than a competition to rival the CL )as has been mooted).
if that’s the case you can shove it, being a cup competition is one thing but leaving your own leagues to play the same teams multiple times a year sucks the life out of football for me. Football is about playing the small teams, romanticising about big wins etc, local cup competitions playing
Even if pl clubs didn’t have money, I’d still be against this because of the 3 clubs who are pushing it.
By definition though football clubs are rooted in their communities unlike boxing, golf or a one off tournament. They will have a tough job forcing it through but there feels a degree of inevitability about it. There's too much money at stake for it not to happen.
I think it's about a CL replacement for sure (The CL would still exist as it is a UEFA competition). Clubs will be in their own leagues because anything different would be destructive to those very same clubs for the reasons you pointed to.
Regardless, you must at least see the issue here. Big clubs are looking for their own interest sure, but it is also the interest of football that the game does not become a play of nations and gangsters.
If the super league helps with the fight against the EPL then why isn’t the CL not doing so?
Literally the only way this makes sense is if the top clubs take more money off the lesser clubs that are currently in the CL otherwise where else is the money coming from?