Is the adversity faced by ETH unprecedented?

Laurencio said:
Ten Hag isn't very pragmatic, and I don't imagine that helps his case. In addition we don't have decisive leadership at the top. A lot of issues could have been avoided with a more pragmatic manager though.

  • Ronaldo would have been kept content until the end of the season, then left for Saudi without much fuss
  • Maguire would have been played in a more fitting system, making him sellable.
  • Sancho would have been better accommodated with players bought to complement him - his lack of discipline in training wouldn't have been a significant problem.
  • Antony would have been a non-starter at that price
  • The hunt for FDJ wouldn't have gone on for as long as it did.
Out of the numerous issues we have had, I'd say all but one - Greenwood, are partly or entirely down to choices made by the manager. And I say that as someone who thinks Ten Hag as a manager has done quite a good job and should be allowed to build his team.
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The first 3 would have been terrible ideas. Changing the team tactics/set up according to the players you have, at the cost of sacrificing moving towards a system you want to play, is exactly how we got to the state we were in.

Anthony has done well enough and sometimes you have to pay what it takes. Waiting for FDJ to not join us was a shame but imagine if the wait had paid off. You take a punt and it doesn't always work.
 
Laurencio said:
A problem for Ten Hag in this case is that he must have personally recommended Antony and vouched for him both as a player and character. There is absolutely no doubt that we signed Antony on his personal say so, when you consider the money spent and the existing relationship they had.

As things stand, neither Antony's ability, efficency or character stands the test of scrutiny. We signed him for €95M, that is a lot of money to get everything about a player wrong. We've seen managers lose the trust of their boards for far less. If the result of this is yet another Greenwood episode, with all the PR issues that will cause and a loss of another asset - it's not looking good.
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100%. For all the adversity outside of his control that ETH has had to overcome, the Antony signing has been hugely damaging to him in so many different respects.
 
hobbers said:
Given he inherited a squad with Ronaldo, Greenwood, Maguire, Sancho, Henderson and Martial... the number and variety of serious and bizarre personal issues in that collective is absolutely unprecedented in any group of players.

One berating the club and manager on chat shows. One arrested on suspicion of domestic violence and rape. One sent away for special training because he couldnt be bothered to get out of bed. One running away from pre season in case the manager saw him training and wanted to keep him. One made of glass. One with a giant slab for a head and no self awareness or humility.

He has to own the Antony one though. Whether Antony has done anything wrong or not, that signing was a train wreck.
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Agree with all of this. I've generally been impressed with how he s handled all these difficult situations. Ronaldo's clearly being the biggest example in that he took some of the heat for what clearly more reflects poorly on the club's pre existing hierarchy and management.

The last paragraph is the critical one for me too. How he handles Anthony's situation will tell us a lot. Now, having said that - does being United and the expectations of the fans place a burden on him there that may not be as prevalent as elsewhere? Most definitely.

As someone else said Arse continued to play Partey, Real with Benzema and Ronaldo, several more players - many of much higher profile than Anthony accused of or even convicted of much worse. Would we i.e. tolerate tax evasion from a Messi here like they did at Barça? Not on the caf at least. Some of that may be the ghost of SAF who clearly was known to be ruthless when it came to disent or distractions. But most other big clubs these days seem to have no problem at all trying to cover for unscrupulous activities.

United has an insanely large magnifying glass on it and while you could say it keeps people honest, i also think it creates an environment in which the pressure to manage with care is higher than just about anywhere else.
 
Laurencio said:
Ten Hag isn't very pragmatic, and I don't imagine that helps his case. In addition we don't have decisive leadership at the top. A lot of issues could have been avoided with a more pragmatic manager though.

  • Ronaldo would have been kept content until the end of the season, then left for Saudi without much fuss
  • Maguire would have been played in a more fitting system, making him sellable.
  • Sancho would have been better accommodated with players bought to complement him - his lack of discipline in training wouldn't have been a significant problem.
  • Antony would have been a non-starter at that price
  • The hunt for FDJ wouldn't have gone on for as long as it did.
Out of the numerous issues we have had, I'd say all but one - Greenwood, are partly or entirely down to choices made by the manager. And I say that as someone who thinks Ten Hag as a manager has done quite a good job and should be allowed to build his team.
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Stopped reading right after the bold part. That's simply impossible. He's gonna get sacked if he kept playing Ronaldo. No way he would have made top 4. And we all know how Ronaldo would behave if you don't give the twat what he wants.
 
He has had some issues yes - but the guy has had close to £400 million to spend on transfers - it's not like I feel sorry for the guy. If he hadn't spent £80 million on Antony and spent that money on a striker, he wouldn't be in a position without a decent striker. So he has to take a fair bit of the blame himself
 
lysglimt said:
He has had some issues yes - but the guy has had close to £400 million to spend on transfers - it's not like I feel sorry for the guy. If he hadn't spent £80 million on Antony and spent that money on a striker, he wouldn't be in a position without a decent striker. So he has to take a fair bit of the blame himself
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No way the club would have allowed him to spend 80m on a striker given Ronaldo was still here back then.
 
lysglimt said:
He has had some issues yes - but the guy has had close to £400 million to spend on transfers - it's not like I feel sorry for the guy. If he hadn't spent £80 million on Antony and spent that money on a striker, he wouldn't be in a position without a decent striker. So he has to take a fair bit of the blame himself
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Yep it all his fault that the players he inherited could only be moved on for 3 bags of crisps. Yeah time for ETH to go some can start blaming all the mistakes on the next manager.
 
It's disappointing how many want to minimise all this, dismiss it as routine, and indeed blame much of it on Ten Hag himself. I'm seeing an actual anti ETH agenda take shape in some elements of the fanbase and I can't believe my eyes frankly.

I've watched United since the 80s and trust me this is truly unprecedented levels of shit we're having to deal with.

ETH may have his flaws, magnified by extremely adverse circumstances, but he is an excellent manager and is doing a good job.
 
I dont think ETH will be the man who could survive in this turd full of environment but he is doing the work that would help his successors reap benefits. I see him as someone who could turn the club around by making some fundamental squad changes required to play the modern brand of football but given the dogshit owners he is working under, he always had his hands tied behind his back. Difficult to expect success from him.
 
Laurencio said:
Ten Hag isn't very pragmatic, and I don't imagine that helps his case. In addition we don't have decisive leadership at the top. A lot of issues could have been avoided with a more pragmatic manager though.

  • Ronaldo would have been kept content until the end of the season, then left for Saudi without much fuss
  • Maguire would have been played in a more fitting system, making him sellable.
  • Sancho would have been better accommodated with players bought to complement him - his lack of discipline in training wouldn't have been a significant problem.
  • Antony would have been a non-starter at that price
  • The hunt for FDJ wouldn't have gone on for as long as it did.
Out of the numerous issues we have had, I'd say all but one - Greenwood, are partly or entirely down to choices made by the manager. And I say that as someone who thinks Ten Hag as a manager has done quite a good job and should be allowed to build his team.
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You can’t keep a player who wants to play every game and not be subbed off content when he’s not performing well enough to warrant that. There is absolutely no chance Ronny would have stayed without causing a fuss unless he was given everything HE wanted even at the detriment of the team he was playing for.

Maguire is already sellable, his wages and need for a payoff to leave make selling him an issue. But he’s also a donkey and nobody wants to pay those wages for a player that isn’t worth them. I guarantee that if we manage to sell him next summer, many people in here will have a major issue with how he deal is done.

Sancho has played under more than 1 manager and each manager has played a different way. He’s not performed consistently since we signed him. His attitude towards training should be dealt with regardless of his match performances though. He should be professional in all working hours. Not just the 90mins he’s on the pitch.

Antony’s price has nothing to do with ETH. He wanted a player and suggested him to the people in charge of our transfer activity. He also isn’t the only player we’ve bought or sold which the same people have been criticised for regarding the price a deal was done at.

We aren’t privy to the information of how long any transfer has actually dragged out for. FDJ wasn’t the only player on our wish list, hence why we ended up with Casemiro. He was just another player the was wanted by our manager. But none of us actually know how long we perused him for, did we actually carry on trying to sign him after he’d publicly told the world he wanted to stay at Barca? We see stuff on twitter and that’s it. Some take that too much like gospel than they should.
 
It's certainly a unique period. Greenwood and then Antony. The Sancho drama which has ended up being overshadowed by the Antony stuff but ordinarily would have been a pretty big story. Ronaldo on Piers Morgan. New signings all basically coming in injured. The non-sale 'sale' of the club. Can't say it's been smooth sailing on the periphery of coaching for ETH at all.
 
While he is facing adversity which is the continuing shambles that is the upper mangment of the club.
But on the flip side he has been given insane amounts of money to spend. Our net spend is again only behind Chelsea.
I don’t think you could call it unprecedented adversity
 
mu4c_20le said:
I mean, he never got to sign anyone so it really wasn't his team, but they still had no problems scoring goals and taking the game to their opponents.
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The original post was about how he implemented his style from day 1 and I just don't see it. They played like a midtable team and finished this way too, their biggest saving grace for fans was the Europa League run. They were struggling massively for the first few years in a way that I fully believe would get Ten Hag a lot more criticism that he gets now. It only got revised years later when it turned out that sticking with Klopp was absolutely a great decision for Pool, but if something similar were to happen with ETH, his home record would get revised in a similar way IMO.
 
And our board can't seem to sell players because they've made mistakes giving high wage contracts out for years. So Erik has toxic fringe players hanging around, stinking out the club. Also can't sign new players until the club gets rid of them.
 
Drizzle said:
It's disappointing how many want to minimise all this, dismiss it as routine, and indeed blame much of it on Ten Hag himself. I'm seeing an actual anti ETH agenda take shape in some elements of the fanbase and I can't believe my eyes frankly.

I've watched United since the 80s and trust me this is truly unprecedented levels of shit we're having to deal with.

ETH may have his flaws, magnified by extremely adverse circumstances, but he is an excellent manager and is doing a good job.
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it really feels to me anyway that we are in the final pushes of the ‘survival mode’ era and there is light at the end of the tunnel if we stay United and keep pushing forward through the last of this drama.
We’ve been badly treated and run by the glazers one way or another. The players are all over the shop running amok with relative impunity. The contracts and wage bill was embarrassing for the return we were getting, it was the emperors new clothes, I’m sure the less cynical players were embarrassed by it all but all it takes is a few bad apples. The fight and camaraderie was all gone.There was no pride once they got the contract they’d made it. Feet up.

If we let this manager work and take note of what we really need until new owners come in and fully back him to clear our all the shite and bad habits we’ve allowed to build in the post Fergie era, then I think we will be finally entering an exciting new phase in the clubs history. I feel like ETH has the highest standards but seems to be very fair at the same time. The majority of the players seem happier now. I think he’s doing an excellent job considering. We need to start finding the best young players in the world again. I feel like this is the one major area we’ve been lagging and missing out. It’s hard to do that when there’s no space in the squad with the likes of Donny etc hanging around and only generating loan interest. We should cut our losses as early as possible and I feel like under new owners we will at least be able to do that.
 
If EtH had hair he'd be pulling it out . Ffs Arnold and the board help this guy out ffs it's your jobs.
 
I am watching United this season with morbid fascination like a humungous disaster movie unfolding rather than investing my emotions in hoping for great footballing achievments. I think this would be better for my mental well-being.
 
Ronaldo issue was quite extreme and he handled it very well. I am sure ETH will come good even if it is not this season. Just for booting Ronaldo out after his petulant behaviour, ETH deserves another year for rebuild. Every manager will make one or two incorrect signings, so not really bothered about it at this point.
 
Lemoor said:
The original post was about how he implemented his style from day 1 and I just don't see it. They played like a midtable team and finished this way too, their biggest saving grace for fans was the Europa League run. They were struggling massively for the first few years in a way that I fully believe would get Ten Hag a lot more criticism that he gets now. It only got revised years later when it turned out that sticking with Klopp was absolutely a great decision for Pool, but if something similar were to happen with ETH, his home record would get revised in a similar way IMO.
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Of course he did. Klopp began working to implement his football ideas from the moment he set foot at Anfield. As it is often the case, in the early days, he had good days (the comeback against Dortmund, beating City 3-0 and 4-1, Villareal 3-0, knocking United easily out of Europe, putting 6 and 4 past AV and Everton respectively), the bad days (the EC final, bad defeats against Watford, Swansea, Southampton etc.) and the crazy days (the 5-4 at Norwich and the 2-2 with WBA spring to mind).

This doesn't mean that the progress was linear, a straight line to the top, as many of our fans imagine it should be. The synergies on the pitch and the tactical nuances remained fluid because these are the things that should be dictated by the personnel, but the core principles were - and still are - always the same. And this shapes the environment where you can say: "I'll take the bumps on the road because i see the endgame". It also keeps everybody on their toes by putting them in a sink or swim situation. Do you remember any significant voice or portion of the fanbase at Liverpool saying: "But we finished second with these players a year ago?". It's the same reason why you'll never see a tweet like Sancho's or a player who has fallen out of grace claiming that he would have been great if the team played to his strengths.

It's painfully obvious in seasons like the previous one, when things don't go well for them. He was plagued with injuries and players burnt out both physically and emotionally, and his only viable options to screen the defence were Henderson and Fabinho on their last legs. Did he use a low block to stop his team from leaking goals? Did he adjust his tactics to focus on nullifying the opponents? Did he sacrifice his idea of how football should be played to get immediate results? The answer to all these questions is, no. Because the moment he'll do that, he'll be a dead man walking. It's why a sentimental appointment, like Solskajer's, was always going to be an exercise in futility.

Ask yourself now, if ETH is allowed to do these things. Can he do a hard reset like the -so much lauded- Arteta, when the deadwood are treated like assets, players like Ronnie shit on the club and its management for months and all you get from United is radio silence or when key players are being handed brand-new contracts before the new guy even gets to train the first team? Two games in with a midfield formation he used at Ajax and all hell breaks loose. Fans, media, StatmanDave... I wrote somewhere else that the pragmatism of his first season will come back to haunt him. When you start sacrificing your own ideals to suit the players you have at your disposal and to make up for the sheer incompetence of a board that keeps shifting from style to style while, at the same time, handing out contracts to every one who passes outside Carrington, you are playing a losing game. Because you're putting the wants of the players and the needs of the upper management above what has made you a valued professional.

And trust me, remember this thread because if it all goes south, everybody will blame him in the end.
 
can see a bit of the early SAF years in all this. mess of a club. massive step up in terms of profile. poorly assembled squad with some world class players underperforming. unruly players hugely popular with fans that need shipping out. poor player culture all round. spending big on a few that are taking time to settle. guess the man needs time to adjust to whats on his desk and 3 years is a minimum to really shape it I would think.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
Of course he did. Klopp began working to implement his football ideas from the moment he set foot at Anfield. As it is often the case, in the early days, he had good days (the comeback against Dortmund, beating City 3-0 and 4-1, Villareal 3-0, knocking United easily out of Europe, putting 6 and 4 past AV and Everton respectively), the bad days (the EC final, bad defeats against Watford, Swansea, Southampton etc.) and the crazy days (the 5-4 at Norwich and the 2-2 with WBA spring to mind).

This doesn't mean that the progress was linear, a straight line to the top, as many of our fans imagine it should be. The synergies on the pitch and the tactical nuances remained fluid because these are the things that should be dictated by the personnel, but the core principles were - and still are - always the same. And this shapes the environment where you can say: "I'll take the bumps on the road because i see the endgame". It also keeps everybody on their toes by putting them in a sink or swim situation. Do you remember any significant voice or portion of the fanbase at Liverpool saying: "But we finished second with these players a year ago?". It's the same reason why you'll never see a tweet like Sancho's or a player who has fallen out of grace claiming that he would have been great if the team played to his strengths.

It's painfully obvious in seasons like the previous one, when things don't go well for them. He was plagued with injuries and players burnt out both physically and emotionally, and his only viable options to screen the defence were Henderson and Fabinho on their last legs. Did he use a low block to stop his team from leaking goals? Did he adjust his tactics to focus on nullifying the opponents? Did he sacrifice his idea of how football should be played to get immediate results? The answer to all these questions is, no. Because the moment he'll do that, he'll be a dead man walking. It's why a sentimental appointment, like Solskajer's, was always going to be an exercise in futility.

Ask yourself now, if ETH is allowed to do these things. Can he do a hard reset like the -so much lauded- Arteta, when the deadwood are treated like assets, players like Ronnie shit on the club and its management for months and all you get from United is radio silence or when key players are being handed brand-new contracts before the new guy even gets to train the first team? Two games in with a midfield formation he used at Ajax and all hell breaks loose. Fans, media, StatmanDave... I wrote somewhere else that the pragmatism of his first season will come back to haunt him. When you start sacrificing your own ideals to suit the players you have at your disposal and to make up for the sheer incompetence of a board that keeps shifting from style to style while, at the same time, handing out contracts to every one who passes outside Carrington, you are playing a losing game. Because you're putting the wants of the players and the needs of the upper management above what has made you a valued professional.

And trust me, remember this thread because if it all goes south, everybody will blame him in the end.
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Very well said mate.
 
Wibble said:
The first 3 would have been terrible ideas. Changing the team tactics/set up according to the players you have, at the cost of sacrificing moving towards a system you want to play, is exactly how we got to the state we were in.

Anthony has done well enough and sometimes you have to pay what it takes. Waiting for FDJ to not join us was a shame but imagine if the wait had paid off. You take a punt and it doesn't always work.
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Yeah being "pragmatic" with Ronaldo was a no-go. Ronaldo himself, not EtH, basically caused the breakdown of the relationship because his ego couldn't handle sitting on the bench.
 
The Manchester United job is currently the hardest one in football because we're arguably 10 years + behind off the pitch, our playing squad is/was really an 8th-4th squad with huge glaring holes that even relegation candidates don't have (i.e. no CF) and yet the expectation is that you have to win every game - exacerbated by the fact that your local rivals have been pumped full of cheat-code cash and are sweeping all before them
 
Lentwood said:
The Manchester United job is currently the hardest one in football because we're arguably 10 years + behind off the pitch, our playing squad is/was really an 8th-4th squad with huge glaring holes that even relegation candidates don't have (i.e. no CF) and yet the expectation is that you have to win every game - exacerbated by the fact that your local rivals have been pumped full of cheat-code cash and are sweeping all before them
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Yeah, just thinking about our squad now and off the top of my head: since EtH joined we've lost/let go of DDG, Matic, Pogba, Ronaldo/Cavani, MG all for free, without a recognized LCB in the squad.

That's essentially the core/spine of our team right there, meaning we've needed to spend big money on replacing players who we've sold for nothing, and yet i see one or 2 mentions in here about "net spend" like that is on him. That's absolutely insane.
 
Yes, and he needs all support from the board and supporters. I was with him during the Ronaldo saga, and i'm with him now eventhough he's often frustated me by trying to overcomplicated things. He is still the best manager for United, he's overachieved in his first season, we are overdue to give him full support.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Now ask yourself how that “brilliant generation of home grown players” have got on after they left Ajax?

See also Tadic, Ziyech, Tagliafico, Neres etc If anything, he made that squad punch a long way above its weight.
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Ten Hag was 100% the right appointment. He was the best manager available at the time and would have been an outstanding candidate regardless of who else was available. What he did at Ajax was superb on the whole. No doubt about that whatsoever. Manchester United did the right thing appointing Ten Hag.

That said, much of your OP is problems of his own making: backing De Gea for a season, investing ridiculous sums in Antony, not prioritising a centre forward (or two even), and over committing to getting Ronaldo on side. I imagine if he had his time again, he’d kick De Gea to the curb, get even a stop gap progressive keeper in, sign a centre forward and sideline Ronaldo as soon as he walked out during a pre-season match.

I have misgivings about the Sancho situation too, because we need him and I think he’s being unusued. Other than Antony being a player ETH obviously values, it is difficult to understand why he is so preferred. I can understand Sancho being demotivated by that. It’s apparent Sancho had mental health issues last season, so I doubt the stick approach will get the best of him. The manager is accountable for motivating and the performance of his staff and the first team squad.
 
Yeah, ETH walked into the toughest job in football. There are just so many obstacles in his way. When taking that into account, I think he has done an alright job, but it could definitely have been better. That said, many of the problems seem to be completely out of his control, such as the chaos over the club's ownership and the problems that previous generations have saddled him with.

But, at the risk of going a little bit off-topic, it's also ridiculous how many "force majeure" problems find their way into this club. This has been going on for a really long time, too--things that are in no way caused by the club or the way it's being run, but nevertheless pose a huge problem for United.

Injuries, for instance--has any club been hit harder over the years? Going back all the way to the likes of Hargreaves and Fletcher (not technically an injury, but it still counts), Phil Jones, then Martial, etc. It's like we're never without one or two key players who get struck with some never-ending injury curse. While this happens to other clubs as well, it feels like we're hit much harder. Remember when we had to field like seven defenders in a game against Arsenal because half our squad was injured? It just seems that this team is in a never-ending state of injury crisis. At the moment of writing, all of the club's best defenders are injured. It's ridiculous at this point.

Player form vanishing without a trace is another thing. Time and time again, some of our most important players apparently just forget how to play football out of the blue. Rooney went from best striker in England to worst player at the club in the span of a couple of years. De Gea is another one. Maguire's form evaporated and he became the worst player at the club. Ronaldo went from our top scorer to an absolute liability over the course of a summer. We can keep listing examples like this, players whose sudden and mysterious decline did not follow any sensible trajectory.

Same goes for players we sign. Time and time again, they were great at the club we bought them from and then utterly failed to maintain their level at United. Di Maria, Mata, Sanchez, Kagawa, Sancho, the list goes on--while it's technically possible that the team is being coached by baboons who cause these players to become shit the moment they arrive, there would be more signs of it if this was the case, and there wouldn't be exceptions like Bruno and Lisandro. If it was a coaching issue, it should affect all players. Instead, it's like half our transfers just stop trying to play well once they arrive.

And then these frustrating issues with... domestic fecking violence, what the hell? Giggs, Greenwood, and now Antony. It's not as if there's something in the water at United that turns people into abusive partners. From the club's perspective, it's sheer bad luck that prolific players turn out to be that way. If we imagine that there's a 0.3% chance that any given footballer turns out to be a domestic abuser, and there's no indication of this when you sign them, why the feck does it happen to United at a far greater rate than other clubs? It's just so bizarre.

Rival fans are of course delighted to use insane mental gymnastics to paint this as some sign that it's a rotten club that attracts these problems by merit of being, as I've heard some say, "a cancer on football." In reality, it's just plain bad luck. It's rolling dice and getting 1s more often than is statistically likely, and more often than other clubs do. It would be really fecking nice if we could roll some 6s sometime. All clubs get 1s and 6s sometimes, but we get way more 1s than others, and hardly any 6s. It's so frustrating and demoralizing.
 
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TMDaines said:
Ten Hag was 100% the right appointment. He was the best manager available at the time and would have been an outstanding candidate regardless of who else was available. What he did at Ajax was superb on the whole. No doubt about that whatsoever. Manchester United did the right thing appointing Ten Hag.

That said, much of your OP is problems of his own making: backing De Gea for a season, investing ridiculous sums in Antony, not prioritising a centre forward (or two even), and over committing to getting Ronaldo on side. I imagine if he had his time again, he’d kick De Gea to the curb, get even a stop gap progressive keeper in, sign a centre forward and sideline Ronaldo as soon as he walked out during a pre-season match.

I have misgivings about the Sancho situation too, because we need him and I think he’s being unusued. Other than Antony being a player ETH obviously values, it is difficult to understand why he is so preferred. I can understand Sancho being demotivated by that. It’s apparent Sancho had mental health issues last season, so I doubt the stick approach will get the best of him. The manager is accountable for motivating and the performance of his staff and the first team squad.
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Difficult to understand why Antony is being preferred over Sancho?! Don’t know even where to begin with that. Did you not watch their performances last season?

I think he could have handled the DDG/Ronaldo situations better but that’s with the benefit of hindsight. It’s certainly not an outrageous idea to have thought he might have been able to get better performances out of someone was recently the (second) best footballer in the world and the best paid goalkeeper in the world. And bombing the pair of them out as soon as he got his feet in the door would have probably been the ballsiest decisions made by any manager ever. Extremely harsh to criticise him for not making it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Difficult to understand why Antony is being preferred over Sancho?! Don’t know even where to begin with that. Did you not watch their performances last season?

I think he could have handled the DDG/Ronaldo situations better but that’s with the benefit of hindsight. It’s certainly not an outrageous idea to have thought he might have been able to get better performances out of someone was recently the (second) best footballer in the world and the best paid goalkeeper in the world. And bombing the pair of them out as soon as he got his feet in the door would have probably been the ballsiest decisions made by any manager ever. Extremely harsh to criticise him for not making it.
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I think I agree with you on De Gea but Ronaldo was too powerful to do anything but give him enough rope.

I think in real time he did what was realistic and politic with Ronaldo.


He bided his time we'll.

And I think the Sancho mutterings may not have been him mis-speaking.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Difficult to understand why Antony is being preferred over Sancho?! Don’t know even where to begin with that. Did you not watch their performances last season?
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Yeah, I watch every minute of every game, often multiple times.

Antony is energetic for the most part and will always catch the eye, but he’s a big part of why we score relatively few goals. His quality and decision making in the final third just isn’t there. He creates far less for his teammates than Sancho does and despite spamming far more shots (and thus turning over the ball more) his expected goals are worse. On the ball, he is exactly what Rashford’s detractors claim he is: largely selfish and wasteful, but without the attacking output to accept that.

I don’t see much more of a ceiling for Antony than what he have now from him. Decision making, teamwork, anticipation and vision are hard to coach. Sancho we have seen at least have a much high ceiling, at a younger age, and Sancho’s United numbers are perfectly reasonable for a player of his age. Even if we don’t have the Dortmund Sancho.
 
fallengt said:
Anthony, Mount are obviously ones. Who else? Other signings range from alright to good. The fecking problem is club overpaid for most of them, but that's hardly manager's fault, isn't it?
For the playstyle, it wasn't totally crap but for whatever reason, United's players are still bad at passing and indecisive in front of goal but this is recurring theme from previous manager as well. So the root cause must be deeper than just manager.


Selective memory much? United was the best team in Europe statistically after the reset, we played well 1.5 months prior too, so that was 4-5 months/8. That wasn't "mostly"
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Sabitzer, Weghorst, malacia. Case is still out on eriksen. If the players are bad at passing, it is down to player profile and managerial system. If we signed players who are great at intricate passing and tidy in possession, our performance will improve. Similiar if our philosophy is a possession based one, which I m surprised that with ETH, we don't dominate more game because I taught that was his style.
 
Ish said:
Yeah, just thinking about our squad now and off the top of my head: since EtH joined we've lost/let go of DDG, Matic, Pogba, Ronaldo/Cavani, MG all for free, without a recognized LCB in the squad.

That's essentially the core/spine of our team right there, meaning we've needed to spend big money on replacing players who we've sold for nothing, and yet i see one or 2 mentions in here about "net spend" like that is on him. That's absolutely insane.
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I feel most football fans are really poor at understanding that assembling a squad is often a game of opportunity cost.

What I mean by that is, fans think about the game in some kind of idealistic way, based on their experience playing computer games like FIFA or Football Manager. In those games, you can sign 10 players in one window, you have perfect information about a players' abilities and you can complete a transfer and salary negotiation with a few clicks of a controller.

Translate that into the real World and fans get frustrated because they think they have spotted problems that the manager somehow hasn't. Look at this thread alone. How many examples of "ETH should have bought/sold/not bought player xyz last Summer/this Summer".

What they forget is, we went into last Summer with a squad that I think 90% of us would agree was horribly unbalanced and short of quality. In that respect, ETHs hand was forced.

"Why spend £60m on an ageing Casemiro?"...because otherwise it was another season of Fred and McTominay in CM.

"Why spend £89m on Antony?"...because, with Greenwood suspended, we had no left-footed right forward, and ETH felt that was integral to us being a more balanced side. For all the criticism of Antony, I believe we were a much better team overall for having him in it last season. Yeah, we overpaid, but that's the cost of having to do things last minute or in a reactive manner.

"Why spend £45m on Martinez?"...again, because we had no left-footed CB. So again, ETH felt we completely lacked balance.

So there we go. £200m spent net on players ETH felt were absolutely essential. So what about the goalkeeper? What about a centre forward? What about depth in midfield?

For fans, it's all so easy isn't it. What a moron ETH is! I knew DDG was finished last season, why did ETH persevere? I knew Ronaldo was finished and Martial was unreliable, why didn't that idiot ETH sign a CF?!

Answer is very obvious when you engage your brain....this is real life, real money! The reality is the opportunity cost of buying the players we bought is that we then can't buy a CF or a GK. Same again this Summer. I'm sure ETH would have loved to sign 10 players...but it's not possible with our current finances...which brings me to my last point...

The reason I call City a "cheat code team" is because, continuing with the video game analogy, they don't have "opportunity cost". When Pep wants to do something, he's done it. When he walked into City and took over a team that had won the title 12 months previously, he went about relentlessly spending, spending and spending again - 6 or 7 players at a time, until he found the right combination eventually.

The point is ETH doesn't have that luxury and Pep wouldn't have had at United either (or most teams) so you have to make do. Imagine Pep had had to stick with Joe Hart for another season. Imagine he couldn't replace both full backs and purchase a spare in one window. Imagine he couldn't sign basically half of Europe's CBs before eventually landing on a combo that worked for him.

We have to get real and understand the difficulties ETH faces in trying to implement a modern style of football on a rag-tag bunch of misfits, assembled by three or four different managers, whilst at the same time under constant pressure to deliver results.

As fans, we do have a role to play in this actually. We can help by being patience, supporting ETH, stop being so results-orientated in the short-term and let him get on with the job. For me, we shouldn't even be thinking too much about his results until next season at a minimum. We should be focusing on how effectively he is rebuilding the squad and how effectively he is coaching his ideas into that squad.
 
Lentwood said:
I feel most football fans are really poor at understanding that assembling a squad is often a game of opportunity cost.

What I mean by that is, fans think about the game in some kind of idealistic way, based on their experience playing computer games like FIFA or Football Manager. In those games, you can sign 10 players in one window, you have perfect information about a players' abilities and you can complete a transfer and salary negotiation with a few clicks of a controller.

Translate that into the real World and fans get frustrated because they think they have spotted problems that the manager somehow hasn't. Look at this thread alone. How many examples of "ETH should have bought/sold/not bought player xyz last Summer/this Summer".

What they forget is, we went into last Summer with a squad that I think 90% of us would agree was horribly unbalanced and short of quality. In that respect, ETHs hand was forced.

"Why spend £60m on an ageing Casemiro?"...because otherwise it was another season of Fred and McTominay in CM.

"Why spend £89m on Antony?"...because, with Greenwood suspended, we had no left-footed right forward, and ETH felt that was integral to us being a more balanced side. For all the criticism of Antony, I believe we were a much better team overall for having him in it last season. Yeah, we overpaid, but that's the cost of having to do things last minute or in a reactive manner.

"Why spend £45m on Martinez?"...again, because we had no left-footed CB. So again, ETH felt we completely lacked balance.

So there we go. £200m spent net on players ETH felt were absolutely essential. So what about the goalkeeper? What about a centre forward? What about depth in midfield?

For fans, it's all so easy isn't it. What a moron ETH is! I knew DDG was finished last season, why did ETH persevere? I knew Ronaldo was finished and Martial was unreliable, why didn't that idiot ETH sign a CF?!

Answer is very obvious when you engage your brain....this is real life, real money! The reality is the opportunity cost of buying the players we bought is that we then can't buy a CF or a GK. Same again this Summer. I'm sure ETH would have loved to sign 10 players...but it's not possible with our current finances...which brings me to my last point...

The reason I call City a "cheat code team" is because, continuing with the video game analogy, they don't have "opportunity cost". When Pep wants to do something, he's done it. When he walked into City and took over a team that had won the title 12 months previously, he went about relentlessly spending, spending and spending again - 6 or 7 players at a time, until he found the right combination eventually.

The point is ETH doesn't have that luxury and Pep wouldn't have had at United either (or most teams) so you have to make do. Imagine Pep had had to stick with Joe Hart for another season. Imagine he couldn't replace both full backs and purchase a spare in one window. Imagine he couldn't sign basically half of Europe's CBs before eventually landing on a combo that worked for him.

We have to get real and understand the difficulties ETH faces in trying to implement a modern style of football on a rag-tag bunch of misfits, assembled by three or four different managers, whilst at the same time under constant pressure to deliver results.

As fans, we do have a role to play in this actually. We can help by being patience, supporting ETH, stop being so results-orientated in the short-term and let him get on with the job. For me, we shouldn't even be thinking too much about his results until next season at a minimum. We should be focusing on how effectively he is rebuilding the squad and how effectively he is coaching his ideas into that squad.
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Absolutely top post this! Should be stickied at the top of the thread for everyone to see.
 
Laurencio said:
It's not appeasement or player power, it's his literal job description. He's a manager, he's supposed to mange the squad. So either get rid of players by selling them, play them in a system that makes them better or ensure a high performance so you can move them on. If you have a player that you believe in, but see deficencies that need to be covered by another player, then get that player. There must have been some belief in Sancho, if not why didn't they just move him on?

Players require different approaches based on personality, age and upbringing. Fergie himself has spoken a about that at length in his leadership talks. It isn't unusual to adapt yojr management style to players. Many managers have done exactly this, including Fergie.

Also, Ronaldo's contract ran out in Jun 2023. I don't mind Ronaldo leaving at all, but it is obvious that a lot of managers would have been able to keep him content and drama free until June.



It is very obvious that Ten Hag wants certain players out, but is being blocked by someone higher up the chain. In that situation the manager has no choice but to adapt. He needs the money from sales to do what he wants - he needs to be more pragmatic on that point.



He's learning and that is good. In terms of tactical ability I'd say he's one of the best we've had, and I have great hopes for him. I just wish he was a hit more pragmatic in his handling of players so he could make it a little easier on himself to move them on. Right now the tactics aren't the issue, but a lack of players who can do what he clearly wants them to. He needs the money.
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Yeah, they would have done so at the cost of the team’s performance. So feck that.
 
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