I'm gonna stop you right there.
Is the adversity faced by ETH unprecedented?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
I'm gonna stop you right there.
Ffs
You think he's pragmatic? Everything I've seen from him suggests he's not. I don't mean that as a bad thing. Personally I like how he's shaping the team, our style of play and reinforcing standards in all aspects - if that change necessitates a few chaotic moments, so be it. He's probably right in doing so, but I don't see anything pragmatic about his approach.
I would say he took a very pragmatic approach to tactics last season. He definitely altered his approach after the first two matches and went with a style that the players were more comfortable with in order to get results. There was no high press and no playing out from the back, both staples of his Ajax squads (and both things he's attempting to implement this season).
Pep Guardiola. Probably not as hard, but the history has been rewritten, as it he had it easy.
They had finished with 67 points, 10 points below Villarreal and 18 below Real Madrid. They had been humiliated 5-1 against a weak Real Madrid. They had a broken dressing room, with the club’s superstar Ronaldinho and the midfield general Deco having both bad attitudes and party problems. Ronaldinho was also getting Messi with him in parties.
The transfers were ok but nothing special. Alves was great, Hleb, Song and Pique were supposed to be squad players (Pique then became one of the best CBs of his generation).
The club hierarchy was a mess. President Laporta marginally won a vote of no confidence, followed by a short civil war which resulted with pretty much the entire board except him resigning. The season started terribly with a loss at Camp Nou against a promoted team followed by barely managing a draw in the second match.
He was 38, with just 1 year of experience in managing, in the third league of Spain. I remember no one giving him a chance.
What did he do? Won every cup which is still unprecedented.
They had finished with 67 points, 10 points below Villarreal and 18 below Real Madrid. They had been humiliated 5-1 against a weak Real Madrid. They had a broken dressing room, with the club’s superstar Ronaldinho and the midfield general Deco having both bad attitudes and party problems. Ronaldinho was also getting Messi with him in parties.
The transfers were ok but nothing special. Alves was great, Hleb, Song and Pique were supposed to be squad players (Pique then became one of the best CBs of his generation).
The club hierarchy was a mess. President Laporta marginally won a vote of no confidence, followed by a short civil war which resulted with pretty much the entire board except him resigning. The season started terribly with a loss at Camp Nou against a promoted team followed by barely managing a draw in the second match.
He was 38, with just 1 year of experience in managing, in the third league of Spain. I remember no one giving him a chance.
What did he do? Won every cup which is still unprecedented.
Great achievement.
But the same pep guardiola, took over a treble winning Bayern, only to have them thrashed by Madrid.
Also, the same Pep took over a solid city squad who win the title 2 seasons ago and then further spent 150m plus only to finish trophyless.
It's a tough job, it has been for a long time. Not impossible but there are more things that make it difficult than there are things that make the targets many fans expect eminently achievable under this ownership. However, a couple of these things are at least partly falling under his responsibility in my opinion.
He decided not to prioritise a 9 in his first season, instead spending exorbitant sums on Antony who hasn't been a difference maker.
On a similar note, if you vouch for someone like Antony as a signing and he subsequently shows himself to be a bit of a bellend that causes problems for the club, then that doesn't reflect well either because we would hope the manager can conduct a decent character assessment on a player he managed. It's kind of like reccomending your mate for a job knowing he's a walking disaster in terms of professionalism, you just wouldn't do it. The club should and probably do generally conduct background checks, and while it's not possible to cover a players every move in life, I don't think things like assaulting females materialise from nothing. It's a character defect in the player that we probably could hope to avoid in general.
Without doubt. Imagine Conte in this shitshow.
Not the biggest fan of EtH in this forum, and I blame him for burning all that money in Antony, whom well, is a mediocre player.
However blaming him cause Antony might potentially turn out to be a cnut IMO is nonsense. It could happen to literally anyone. People that look decent can turn out to be cnuts all the time. People can be nice in working environment but be arseholes when they go home.
I'll add another thing that you didn't mention: He's had to deal with the jadedness and cynicism surrounding a club that has failed over and over again for a decade. None of the other post-SAF managers have had to deal with this on anywhere near the same level, and I think it's the main reason this past transfer window is being talked about as if it's the worst one in a decade.
I'm not neccessarily blaming him as having full responsibility if the Antony thing turns bad because ultimately Antony has his free will and you may be right that it wasn't possible to forsee his potential to do something really stupid. But it's worth asking the question and certainly if you sanctioned 80 million pounds on an investment you would be quite within your rights to be putting it to him. That's part of being accountable for decisions of that scale. When you make decisions that ultimately don't work out there are probably a higher set of expected standards to be applied than to people doing ordinary jobs that for the most part require ordinary abilities.
For me we're talking about elite management here. The absolute pinnacle of the sport running a 5 billion quid club on the sporting side, it's not like he's running a chippy and anybody with a pulse is getting hired. Standards should be pretty high for how someone like ten Hag is able to understand the character of staff that are under him. Frankly it's a huge part of his job. It's the main part outside transfer windows and strategising, to be organising and relating to people and in my opinion at that level of people management you should have a toolkit to be reading people, even the things that unspoken, primarily so you can get the best out of them. If you don't, you are missing a trick massively. He had a decent period of time to know Antony and that's why I put the question forward. If it was just a random signing conducted mainly by the transfer department then there would clearly be less potential responsibility.
I also don't think it's true that people magically turn to cnuts outside of the workplace. They can mask things and pretend but that's not quite the same thing.
Non come to mind.
But I would suggest that perhaps some of ETHs issue are self-inflicted.
Doesn't excuse him for playing bad football and some of the signings he has made/approved.
I fear that we have a very high chance of getting spanked 7-0 again this season. Even with all the distraction, I want to have more confident that we will perform well against strong teams.
ETH definitely has a lot of distraction, but that is why his job is solely on coaching and managing these players. We have other departments that can handle some of these distraction.
I fear that we have a very high chance of getting spanked 7-0 again this season. Even with all the distraction, I want to have more confident that we will perform well against strong teams.
ETH definitely has a lot of distraction, but that is why his job is solely on coaching and managing these players. We have other departments that can handle some of these distraction.
Probably true. Sometimes the combination of players and manager come together and it just all works. Right time, right place.
You could say the same about the team that knocked them out in the CL, Spurs under Poch.
A problem for Ten Hag in this case is that he must have personally recommended Antony and vouched for him both as a player and character. There is absolutely no doubt that we signed Antony on his personal say so, when you consider the money spent and the existing relationship they had.
As things stand, neither Antony's ability, efficency or character stands the test of scrutiny. We signed him for €95M, that is a lot of money to get everything about a player wrong. We've seen managers lose the trust of their boards for far less. If the result of this is yet another Greenwood episode, with all the PR issues that will cause and a loss of another asset - it's not looking good.
It really is getting ridiculous what's going on with the club. It just keeps getting worse
I believe so. We have been way worse in footballing terms over the last decade but the sheer number of issues arrising lately is depressing. The never ending sale saga. The worst owners in world football. The Ronaldo fiasco. Sancho. Greenwood. Antony. Stadium falling down. Incompetent upper management. Maguire the unflushable turd. Injury after injury. To be honest I wouldn't blame him if he walked.
Moyes, Emery? Following a club legend is always a disaster waiting to happen.
Potter? His Chelsea tenure looked like one of those cooking shows where you have to make the best dish with four ingredients that you've never heard of, don't fit together, or both.
Ten Hag got a little bit of both categories (no he's not right after Fergie, but Fergie's shadow still looms over the club), with a fan base that (with some historical justification) wants to win now, not a rebuilding project. And all without Overmars who did the talent acquisition bit at Ajax. So I won't say it's the most adversity, but it's pretty high up there. Arteta was given carte blanche for a rebuild, a couple of 8th place finishes be damned. Ten Hag has been asked to produce results and a rebuild at the same time. It's a pretty big ask, so I don't think the initial question is unreasonable.
Potter? His Chelsea tenure looked like one of those cooking shows where you have to make the best dish with four ingredients that you've never heard of, don't fit together, or both.
Ten Hag got a little bit of both categories (no he's not right after Fergie, but Fergie's shadow still looms over the club), with a fan base that (with some historical justification) wants to win now, not a rebuilding project. And all without Overmars who did the talent acquisition bit at Ajax. So I won't say it's the most adversity, but it's pretty high up there. Arteta was given carte blanche for a rebuild, a couple of 8th place finishes be damned. Ten Hag has been asked to produce results and a rebuild at the same time. It's a pretty big ask, so I don't think the initial question is unreasonable.
Bit disingenious that considering he lost Matic, Pogba, Ronaldo, De Gea and now Greenwood all on free transfers with no replacements. The way you make it sound is like he inherited SAF's 2013 title winning squad and spent an extra 200 mil reinforcing it.
If Chelsea is to go by anything, 200mil gets you 2 good players these days anyways.
And people wonder why we have player power that's ruining the club. Imagine being the manager having to appease all of these players in order to move them one, and then expecting everyone to be disciplined. Even better yet imagine a prime SAF, Pep, Klopp, Mourinho or even Arteta trying to do what you've listed above. Imagine an old declining Ronaldo telling SAF he isn't going to follow his instructions in order to run and press or Sancho telling Klopp that in order to better press and improve his workrate he needs better players to accommodate him
If any of them came through the door, all of these lazy fecks would have been sent to the reserves or shipped out in January. No self respecting manager will accomodate a bunch of declining prima donnas at the expense of discipline, team work and cohesion.
As far as your he is not a pragmatic manager line goes, ETH is very pragmatic as show in his career. He went from a 3-5-2 counter attacking formation at Utrecht to a 4-2-3-1 and then a 4-3-3 possesion attacking formation at Ajax and now he wants to implement a direct transition approach at United.
Whilist at United he wanted to play from the back last season, but after the debacle in our first 2 games he quickly realized it's not going to fly. So he instructed DDG to hoof it up the field and also dropped the defensive line to accomodate his passiveness. Now that he is out, he went back to building from the back and instructed our defensive line to be higher up the pitch.
As you can see so far by the first couple of games... our players are still getting used to it. I imagine when it clicks we're going to see a completely different team. All of these changes speak to me that not only is he pragmatic, he is also very adaptable to his players as well as the league he plays in without having to sacrifice his system or his priciples.
I kinda feel like doing anything else with the squad at his disposal would have been managerial suicide, but fair enough.
He could leave next summer if the owners are still here, nothing will change until them leeches are gone!
In recent times? Possibly, historically? I think fans of our club know better than to ask that question.
I acknowledge the OP's points, and don't disagree with any of them. However, I do not think that they are worse than the position that Moyes found himself in.
Imagine - stepping into the shoes of the greatest manager of all time, at the biggest club in the world, having just won the title again. Major players are leaving/retiring and the rest have only ever known Ferguson.
I'd say that that trump's the difficulties faced by EtH.
Imagine - stepping into the shoes of the greatest manager of all time, at the biggest club in the world, having just won the title again. Major players are leaving/retiring and the rest have only ever known Ferguson.
I'd say that that trump's the difficulties faced by EtH.
And people wonder why we have player power that's ruining the club. Imagine being the manager having to appease all of these players in order to move them one, and then expecting everyone to be disciplined. Even better yet imagine a prime SAF, Pep, Klopp, Mourinho or even Arteta trying to do what you've listed above. Imagine an old declining Ronaldo telling SAF he isn't going to follow his instructions in order to run and press or Sancho telling Klopp that in order to better press and improve his workrate he needs better players to accommodate him
It's not appeasement or player power, it's his literal job description. He's a manager, he's supposed to mange the squad. So either get rid of players by selling them, play them in a system that makes them better or ensure a high performance so you can move them on. If you have a player that you believe in, but see deficencies that need to be covered by another player, then get that player. There must have been some belief in Sancho, if not why didn't they just move him on?
Players require different approaches based on personality, age and upbringing. Fergie himself has spoken a about that at length in his leadership talks. It isn't unusual to adapt yojr management style to players. Many managers have done exactly this, including Fergie.
Also, Ronaldo's contract ran out in Jun 2023. I don't mind Ronaldo leaving at all, but it is obvious that a lot of managers would have been able to keep him content and drama free until June.
It is very obvious that Ten Hag wants certain players out, but is being blocked by someone higher up the chain. In that situation the manager has no choice but to adapt. He needs the money from sales to do what he wants - he needs to be more pragmatic on that point.
He's learning and that is good. In terms of tactical ability I'd say he's one of the best we've had, and I have great hopes for him. I just wish he was a hit more pragmatic in his handling of players so he could make it a little easier on himself to move them on. Right now the tactics aren't the issue, but a lack of players who can do what he clearly wants them to. He needs the money.
I had a Liverpool fan at work today banging on about Antony so I said yeah it’s a bad situation, but Arsenal have continued to play Partey for the last year + without the media having a problem.
He said it’s the first he’d heard about any Partey allegations.
United problems create clicks. Nobody else cares what shite is on anyone else’s books
He said it’s the first he’d heard about any Partey allegations.
United problems create clicks. Nobody else cares what shite is on anyone else’s books
Do you remember the team Klopp took over? Or Ole from Mourinho? Almost everyone picks up a mess when they replace a sacked manager. This thread makes it sound like he was faced with an impossible job. Everyone in the league not named Pep or Klopp would have killed for the job.
It took klopp 4 years. What’s your point?
That he implemented his style from day one.
His style in first season was mostly being really bad.
Klopp sold most of his players and signed new ones on the cheap. Firmino alone funded the transfers of VVD and Allison. Only Emre Can was lost on a free transfer.
As far as Ole goes: DDG, Jones, Bailly, Lindelof, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, Mata, Lingard, Matic, Pogba were all part of Mourinho's squad that Ole inherited and kept. Ironically it was ETH who lost most of these players on a free that you so claim doesn't know how to use the money. It was actually Ole who added extra players to that squad that we really didn't need and on insane wages that we are now trying to shift. Most of the players leaving right now that ETH had to replace are actually Mourinho buys.
So please continue chatting bollocks like you normally do
Disagree, He finished 4th playing attacking football, scoring 78 goals. I would gladly give up the carabao cup and one league position last season if it meant us scoring 20 more goals.
Anthony, Mount are obviously ones. Who else? Other signings range from alright to good. The fecking problem is club overpaid for most of them, but that's hardly manager's fault, isn't it?
For the playstyle, it wasn't totally crap but for whatever reason, United's players are still bad at passing and indecisive in front of goal but this is recurring theme from previous manager as well. So the root cause must be deeper than just manager.
Selective memory much? United was the best team in Europe statistically after the reset, we played well 1.5 months prior too, so that was 4-5 months/8. That wasn't "mostly"
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That was the second season. First one was 8th place and Europa League final and their style in the league was miserable then.
One thing that remains consistent is him putting a stamp of authority over the squad which is ultimately a good thing and will hopefully be even more improved come the start of next year once most of these issues are either resolved or put behind us when more of the problem players have left.
I mean, he never got to sign anyone so it really wasn't his team, but they still had no problems scoring goals and taking the game to their opponents.
Mata and Martial as well. And what are you trying to prove again? Bar Lukaku and Darmian every one of these players would go on to play for Ole. Some of them would even form the backbone of his team.
This was Mourinho's last game and the team he left behind, with Pogba on the bench.
Edit: forgot to throw Fred and Mctominnay in there as well which were Mourinho buys/promotions
Please don't let the away form cloud the fact that we made Barcelona look like Stoke, and took CIty, Liverpool, Arsenal and Totenham to the cleaners at OT. A lot of people were creaming their pants after that 2-0 home win against Conte where Spurs didn't have a single coherent attack and we could have scored 5 against them
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Don't be silly. Apart from two players involved in domestic abuse, the rest of the things are routine. Managers have successfully overseen actual club crises like death of players, relegation, near-bankruptcy, points deduction, criminal allegations, and major scandals. EtH has faced a tough couple of years, but calling it "unprecedented " is blowing it out of proportion. These situations are faced by all managers of top clubs rather routinely.
I strongly disagree with this. Ronaldo was very bad last season, profligate in front of goal, was useless as a striker in and out of possession, and not capable of playing out wide anymore. On top of this he was unwilling to be used more as a squad player.
No manager, other than one willing to piss away the season to satisfy Ronaldo's ego by keeping him in the XI regardless of his obviously deteriorating skills and physical ability would've been able to keep him on board.
Getting his hands dirty and having some public fall outs with players was inevitable given the squad and situation he inherited. As is I think he is very close to completely a necessary and long-needed culling of the squad.
Is he perfect? Absolutely not and the Antony signing may already be a certified disaster, but the state of the club does little to help him and I still think on the whole he's been much more of a positive than anything else.
One of those being effectively out of the squad when he took over and something he will not shoulder the responsibility for, as the final decisions are taken way above his pay grade.
Agreed that it is not that exceptional, though certainly he has to compose with difficulties.