Is the adversity faced by ETH unprecedented?

Pogue Mahone

Closet Gooner.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
138,081
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Can anyone think of any other manager who’s had to deal with adversity that comes close to the following?

As soon as he starts he has to find a way to get the best out of, then manage out, the most famous footballer on the planet, who is clearly over the hill but in complete denial about this due to his massive ego.

Subsequently go through the whole of that first season without a recognised number 9 on his books (because his one and only specialist option there is a crock)

Speaking of number 9s, he has the whole Greenwood shit show to deal with.

Speaking of shit shows, he’s got another one on his lap with Anthony, his most expensive signing who he signed to upgrade…

…Sancho, another one of the clubs most expensive ever signings who is finding life at Manchester United so difficult he needed a prolonged mid season break, only to subsequently throw his toys out of the pram when he’s dropped from the squad for failing to perform at the required level despite this special treatment.

The general being stuck with a load of deadwood and needing to upgrade every position in the squad stuff isn’t that unusual. So probably not worth mentioning. Although having the best paid goalkeeper in the world performing like a mediocre PL goalkeeper was obviously more of a pain in the arse than most managers deal with.

So yeah, any other managers who had to deal with the same sort of shite? Arteta’s Aubameyang/Partey situations comes to mind as a similar, but much less challenging example.
 
Don't forget the ongoing club sale situation and the club always refusing to get business done early and leaving a hell of a lot of important business until the last days of the window, 2 summers in a row.
 
Yes, he has had more shit to deal with than previous managers. So much bullshit that is out of his control. If he wasn't bald to begin with, then he would have lost all his hair by now.
 
Yes, all the shit that has piled up since the takeover and then SAF/Gill leaving has been left on ETH’s desk to clear up. I’d like to see him go full on SAF/Pep/Klopp and lose it a bit when it’s warranted.
 
You're on point here. Going after the manager is completely wrong. The club is rotten to the core and needs a complete overhaul. ETH is on the right track clearing out some of it.

That said, im unsure on how he will deal with the Antony case. He is not in an easy position, but his position needs to be as strong as possible and he needs to be backed fully in his calls
 
Meh, takeover uncertainty doesn't stop him from getting 200m net every summer.
 
I think this is probably his most difficult moment he might ever face in his career all things considered, especially if Antony is suspended and Sancho sold. It is extraordinary for sure and I really can't see any other "young and talented" manager wanting to join us now.
 
There is a lot of shit, but he also has spent quite a bit as well on his players. Antony is the worst off the pitch obviously.
 
And it's why we need to stick with him! He garned a reputation as one of the best young coaches in Europe. Club and manager need to grow alongside each other.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can anyone think of any other manager who’s had to deal with adversity that comes close to the following?

As soon as he starts he has to find a way to get the best out of, then manage out, the most famous footballer on the planet, who is clearly over the hill but in complete denial about this due to his massive ego.

Subsequently go through the whole of that first season without a recognised number 9 on his books (because his one and only specialist option there is a crock)

Speaking of number 9s, he has the whole Greenwood shit show to deal with.

Speaking of shit shows, he’s got another one on his lap with Anthony, his most expensive signing who he signed to upgrade…

…Sancho, another one of the clubs most expensive ever signings who is finding life at Manchester United so difficult he needed a prolonged mid season break, only to subsequently throw his toys out of the pram when he’s dropped from the squad for failing to perform at the required level despite this special treatment.

The general being stuck with a load of deadwood and needing to upgrade every position in the squad stuff isn’t that unusual. So probably not worth mentioning. Although having the best paid goalkeeper in the world performing like a mediocre PL goalkeeper was obviously more of a pain in the arse than most managers deal with.

So yeah, any other managers who had to deal with the same sort of shite? Arteta’s Aubameyang/Partey situations comes to mind as a similar, but much less challenging example.
Click to expand...

You're making a lot of excuses for him. He knew what he was walking into. He knew the team was vastly underperforming and was full of players who were overpaid and/or over the hill. He knew the club had owners hated by the fans.

He knew that Greenwood was still under investigation when he took the job.

Did he get the Ronaldo call out? Maybe we will never know for sure, but I'm convinced that Ronaldo would have been a better option than Wout Weghorst and the human traffic cone that is Anthony Martial. Surely there was a way to placate Ronaldo and potentially even recoup some cash on him at a later date, rather than let him walk on a free mid season.

Anthony was his signing. We don't know how his personal and potential legal issues will turn out, but can Ten Hag truly say that he signed someone who was 100% a good character?

He also signed an aging Casemiro on a massive salary, who will eventually be another player we can't shift, unless Saudi want him.

I think he is doing a decent job, even though I don't think the football has moved on much.

He could be more pragmatic about how he deals with situations. Ten Hag's attitude seems to be "my way or the highway", but what if his way is proving to be wrong?
 
gaffs said:
You're making a lot of excuses for him. He knew what he was walking into. He knew the team was vastly underperforming and was full of players who were overpaid and/or over the hill. He knew the club had owners hated by the fans.

He knew that Greenwood was still under investigation when he took the job.

Did he get the Ronaldo call out? Maybe we will never know for sure, but I'm convinced that Ronaldo would have been a better option than Wout Weghorst and the human traffic cone that is Anthony Martial. Surely there was a way to placate Ronaldo and potentially even recoup some cash on him at a later date, rather than let him walk on a free mid season.

Anthony was his signing. We don't know how his personal and potential legal issues will turn out, but can Ten Hag truly say that he signed someone who was 100% a good character?

He also signed an aging Casemiro on a massive salary, who will eventually be another player we can't shift, unless Saudi want him.

I think he is doing a decent job, even though I don't think the football has moved on much.

He could be more pragmatic about how he deals with situations. Ten Hag's attitude seems to be "my way or the highway", but what if his way is proving to be wrong?
Click to expand...

The premise of the thread is whether or not he has had to cope with more adversity than most other managers taking on a big job like ours. Whether he could have predicted them before he took the job, or handled them better when he was in the job is irrelevant. Can you name any other manager who's had to deal with challenges of a similar scale?
 
DatIrishFella said:
And it's why we need to stick with him! He garned a reputation as one of the best young coaches in Europe. Club and manager need to grow alongside each other.
Click to expand...

Lets be honest. His reputation was built because he managed an Ajax team who had a brilliant generation of home grown players like de Ligt, De Jong and at the time Donny VDB. He could easily outgun the rest of the league.

The 2019 run to the CL Semis was very impressive. The next year though, they didn't get out of the groups.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Meh, takeover uncertainty doesn't stop him from getting 200m net every summer.
Click to expand...
Not this summer. Burnley and Brentford have a higher net spend than United this season. 200m isn't anything special these days in the PL. Just means you're above average. There's a PL tax for all the clubs then clubs like United get a little bit extra tacked on.
 
Not really. I think clubs that have had points docked or on the verge on bankruptcy are in greater adversity.

We're not in a good place though, that's for sure.
 
It's been a lot, and I think it's starting to get to him a bit.

Think his rant at the ref after the game was more to do with him being annoyed at all this shit going on then anything else.
 
Would add to the list having to deal with the Maguire captaincy situation and figuring out how to shift a ton of deadwood on insane contracts.

He also entered a dressing room where entitlement had flourished, discipline was non existent and morale had been been sapped.

The ownership thing can’t be downplayed, but in terms of how destabilising it is rather than than effect on transfers.

The transfer situation is fecked because of years of mismanagement and deadwood on our books rather than having anything to do with the sale.
 
Greenwood and Antony, yes. There are just a few players in top clubs accused for rape or domestic violence, to have 2 in the same team must be unprecedented.

Falling out with Ronaldo and Sancho, I think most managers fall out with some good players. He was backed to quickly get rid of Ronaldo, so no issue here. And I am pretty sure that he can decide to not select Sancho for a single minute and no one would give a shit. So I think this is just job as expected.

Getting rid of deadwood etc, again every manager has to deal with that. He has been heavily backed to do so, already spent over 400m.

I think having to deal with an incompetent board and the football structure above him being inadequate is a much bigger problem than Sancho/Ronaldo/Maguire/deadwood. Also the Glazers selling but not selling can be an issue, that strangely was not mentioned in the OP.
 
Last edited:
Not as bad as Joe Kinnear when he had to deal with Mike Ashley and Insomnia at Newcastle.

Terrible times.
 
I mean, there's a lot of shit he's had to deal with....but apart from Greenwood, how much of it was unknown to him?

He took the job knowing Ronaldo was a declining primadonna.

He took the job knowing we had a forest of overpaid deadwood that would be extremely difficult to sell.

He took the job knowing Sancho was underperforming and had a history of poor application

He took the job known De Gea was a one dimensional goal keeper that did not suit ETH's style of play.

He signed Antony, and while the recent allegations would have been unknown, ETH more than anyone should have known he is a limited player. He didn't just all of a sudden forget how to use his right foot or forget how to take a man on.

And he was hired by the Glazers, so he's well aware of the who owners of the club were. He would not have been privy to any of their intentions, and can only assume he's happy to be working under them for the duration of his tenure here.

While it's a shit show, it was a well advertised and well document shit show that he signed up for. So I'm not overly sympathetic.
 
Playing midweek fixtures consecutively for half a season is something that will never repeat itself, and he managed to finish the season on 75 points and reach two domestic finals. It takes comedic levels of cluelessness to overlook how difficult a circumstance that is.
 
gaffs said:
Lets be honest. His reputation was built because he managed an Ajax team who had a brilliant generation of home grown players like de Ligt, De Jong and at the time Donny VDB. He could easily outgun the rest of the league.

The 2019 run to the CL Semis was very impressive. The next year though, they didn't get out of the groups.
Click to expand...

Now ask yourself how that “brilliant generation of home grown players” have got on after they left Ajax?

See also Tadic, Ziyech, Tagliafico, Neres etc If anything, he made that squad punch a long way above its weight.
 
Erics_Collar said:
I mean, there's a lot of shit he's had to deal with....but apart from Greenwood, how much of it was unknown to him?

He took the job knowing Ronaldo was a declining primadonna.

He took the job knowing we had a forest of overpaid deadwood that would be extremely difficult to sell.

He took the job knowing Sancho was underperforming and had a history of poor application

He took the job known De Gea was a one dimensional goal keeper that did not suit ETH's style of play.

He signed Antony, and while the recent allegations would have been unknown, ETH more than anyone should have known he is a limited player. He didn't just all of a sudden forget how to use his right foot or forget how to take a man on.

And he was hired by the Glazers, so he's well aware of the who owners of the club were. He would not have been privy to any of their intentions, and can only assume he's happy to be working under them for the duration of his tenure here.

While it's a shit show, it was a well advertised and well document shit show that he signed up for. So I'm not overly sympathetic.
Click to expand...

The issue isn’t about whether he deserves sympathy or not. It’s about how tough a job he’s had since taking over.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Meh, takeover uncertainty doesn't stop him from getting 200m net every summer.
Click to expand...
Considering you are just plucking numbers from your bottom, why don't you make that 700m every summer just for more stupidity.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can anyone think of any other manager who’s had to deal with adversity that comes close to the following?

As soon as he starts he has to find a way to get the best out of, then manage out, the most famous footballer on the planet, who is clearly over the hill but in complete denial about this due to his massive ego.

Subsequently go through the whole of that first season without a recognised number 9 on his books (because his one and only specialist option there is a crock)

Speaking of number 9s, he has the whole Greenwood shit show to deal with.

Speaking of shit shows, he’s got another one on his lap with Anthony, his most expensive signing who he signed to upgrade…

…Sancho, another one of the clubs most expensive ever signings who is finding life at Manchester United so difficult he needed a prolonged mid season break, only to subsequently throw his toys out of the pram when he’s dropped from the squad for failing to perform at the required level despite this special treatment.

The general being stuck with a load of deadwood and needing to upgrade every position in the squad stuff isn’t that unusual. So probably not worth mentioning. Although having the best paid goalkeeper in the world performing like a mediocre PL goalkeeper was obviously more of a pain in the arse than most managers deal with.

So yeah, any other managers who had to deal with the same sort of shite? Arteta’s Aubameyang/Partey situations comes to mind as a similar, but much less challenging example.
Click to expand...

Not sure about unprecedented but its definitely a difficult time, which is why its frustrating seeing the criticism that he is getting that doesn't take in the actual context of all the challenges he is/has been working with.
 
ETH isn't at fault for any of the drama, but he is responsible for making the team punch above its collective weight, which spare a few notable games, he did manage to do last year. I expect the same this year. We simply haven't improved in the most important area, so I wouldn't expect any end of season table improvement either.
 
Raoul said:
ETH isn't at fault for any of the drama, but he is responsible for making the team punch above its collective weight, which spare a few notable games, he did manage to do last year. I expect the same this year. We simply haven't improved in the most important area, so I wouldn't expect any end of season table improvement either.
Click to expand...
Exactly. I feel we will be in the 70 to 80 points mark. Hopefully that helps us finish in top4. A trophy and a good run in CL would be amazing.
 
Ten Hag isn't very pragmatic, and I don't imagine that helps his case. In addition we don't have decisive leadership at the top. A lot of issues could have been avoided with a more pragmatic manager though.

  • Ronaldo would have been kept content until the end of the season, then left for Saudi without much fuss
  • Maguire would have been played in a more fitting system, making him sellable.
  • Sancho would have been better accommodated with players bought to complement him - his lack of discipline in training wouldn't have been a significant problem.
  • Antony would have been a non-starter at that price
  • The hunt for FDJ wouldn't have gone on for as long as it did.
Out of the numerous issues we have had, I'd say all but one - Greenwood, are partly or entirely down to choices made by the manager. And I say that as someone who thinks Ten Hag as a manager has done quite a good job and should be allowed to build his team.
 
We have and have had an incredible amount of exhausting and difficult cases. When one case is resolved, a new one appears.

I think Erik should be given a lot of credit for how he is still making good progress despite all the problems.

I don't think there are many or anyone in charge of a top club who have had to deal with so many unnecessary and time-consuming things.

Let's hope he can focus only on football soon.
 
gaffs said:
You're making a lot of excuses for him. He knew what he was walking into. He knew the team was vastly underperforming and was full of players who were overpaid and/or over the hill. He knew the club had owners hated by the fans.

He knew that Greenwood was still under investigation when he took the job.

Did he get the Ronaldo call out? Maybe we will never know for sure, but I'm convinced that Ronaldo would have been a better option than Wout Weghorst and the human traffic cone that is Anthony Martial. Surely there was a way to placate Ronaldo and potentially even recoup some cash on him at a later date, rather than let him walk on a free mid season.

Anthony was his signing. We don't know how his personal and potential legal issues will turn out, but can Ten Hag truly say that he signed someone who was 100% a good character?

He also signed an aging Casemiro on a massive salary, who will eventually be another player we can't shift, unless Saudi want him.

I think he is doing a decent job, even though I don't think the football has moved on much.

He could be more pragmatic about how he deals with situations. Ten Hag's attitude seems to be "my way or the highway", but what if his way is proving to be wrong?
Click to expand...
They are not excuses at all, I can't remember any high profile manager that had to deal with such amount of shit show around the club in such a short period of time.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Now ask yourself how that “brilliant generation of home grown players” have got on after they left Ajax?

See also Tadic, Ziyech, Tagliafico, Neres etc If anything, he made that squad punch a long way above its weight.
Click to expand...

This.
 
Revan said:
Greenwood and Antony, yes.... to have 2 in the same team must be unprecedented.
Click to expand...

Is this correct? Domestic violence applies to both but the charge of attempted rape only applies to one as far as I recall. No wonder discussion gets banned on here.

edit: removed contestable content from quote.
 
Last edited:
There are definitely managers for smaller clubs that have had worse circumstances to succeed in. They weren't expected to get top 4, though.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
Is this correct? Domestic violence applies to both but the charge of attempted rape only applies to one as far as I recall. No wonder discussion gets banned on here.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct, I was careless in my original post and now edited it.
 
Never seen anything like it. Our club is in complete turmoil with the amount of things happening around the same time,
Ronaldo fiasco, club sale nonsense, injuries, criminal accusations, sancho drama, etc. wowowow
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can anyone think of any other manager who’s had to deal with adversity that comes close to the following?

As soon as he starts he has to find a way to get the best out of, then manage out, the most famous footballer on the planet, who is clearly over the hill but in complete denial about this due to his massive ego.

Subsequently go through the whole of that first season without a recognised number 9 on his books (because his one and only specialist option there is a crock)

Speaking of number 9s, he has the whole Greenwood shit show to deal with.

Speaking of shit shows, he’s got another one on his lap with Anthony, his most expensive signing who he signed to upgrade…

…Sancho, another one of the clubs most expensive ever signings who is finding life at Manchester United so difficult he needed a prolonged mid season break, only to subsequently throw his toys out of the pram when he’s dropped from the squad for failing to perform at the required level despite this special treatment.

The general being stuck with a load of deadwood and needing to upgrade every position in the squad stuff isn’t that unusual. So probably not worth mentioning. Although having the best paid goalkeeper in the world performing like a mediocre PL goalkeeper was obviously more of a pain in the arse than most managers deal with.

So yeah, any other managers who had to deal with the same sort of shite? Arteta’s Aubameyang/Partey situations comes to mind as a similar, but much less challenging example.
Click to expand...
remember the magnier - magnus vs Fergie period?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.