Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?

deafepl said:
As I'm aware that Ramos is good defenders but I think he is only the far most overrated defenders in history. He's like Dani Alves of CB who get into the world's best XI for years in position when there are a couple of defenders who is better than him at one point. In the next 20 years, people would be talking about him as if he's best CB in history based on his honors.

Ramos would be more highly rated in term of his defending if he wasn't committing a lot of fouls and didn't get red.

Just watch difference Rio and Ramos in term of defending. Rio hasn't committed foul in 40 games for almost year and kept a lot of clean sheets, he's always clean and making defending look so easy, I'd feel more confident with him leading the defense. I get the same vibes with VVD. Do I get the same vibes with Ramos? No, he looks like he has mistakes in every game, doing reckless challenge/foul due to his poor positioning and poor reading of the games.
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Football is more than defending, even for CBs. Sergio Ramos has played a pivotal role in 4 CL titles. Often scoring huge goals, which is inherently more valuable than superior defending btw...

Also, you talk about world best XI, honestly, if there was a RB you's rather have over Dani Alves because of defence, i don't what to say. Sergio's impact on his team and its success speaks for itself
 
Keeps It tidy said:
Pique has clearly been the better defender over their careers.
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Pique is a midfielder playing at centreback in the most possession-dominant side in history. He's not needed to be a defender in the way Ramos (or almost any other CB) has.

Even Mascherano looked like a defender in that team.
 
Dante said:
Pique is a midfielder playing at centreback in the most possession-dominant side in history. He's not needed to be a defender in the way Ramos (or almost any other CB) has.

Even Mascherano looked like a defender in that team.
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You can't say this when people are praising Ramos for his offensive output.
 
Dante said:
Pique is a midfielder playing at centreback in the most possession-dominant side in history. He's not needed to be a defender in the way Ramos (or almost any other CB) has.

Even Mascherano looked like a defender in that team.
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Playing CB in that style is harder than it looks. Just look at City's defense in Pep's first season there. And because of Valverde's garbage system he has had to do a lot of "traditional defending" these last two years and handled it well.
 
Dante said:
Pique is a midfielder playing at centreback in the most possession-dominant side in history. He's not needed to be a defender in the way Ramos (or almost any other CB) has.

Even Mascherano looked like a defender in that team.
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You realize we're not still in 2012 right? he's spent most of his career playing in a team that definitely needs him to defend.
He's been excellent this season, shame Umtiti has completely lost his form, Lenglet doesn't seem good enough.
 
Not many are claiming that Ramos is among the greatest pure defenders in football history, to be fair — at least not the reasonable ones. Most wouldn't put him even close to the Baresi/Kohler bracket as far as distilled defensive fortitude/resilience/discipline is concerned. The plaudits he receives should be considered in appropriate light with an emphasis on his positive traits as a multi-dimensional footballer, not just a stopper of goals and marker of opposition players.

Not many could negotiate a high defensive line in the manner he did because they were quite simply not as athletic/agile or capable of recovering from errors as him, not many were as flexible or adept at 1-2 combinations and dribbling to bring the ball out from the defensive line, not many provided as many dramatic and impactful individual moments or interventions from inherently conservative positions, and not many centerbacks had comparable talismanic qualities in times of need or desperation (in that regard Ramos is a diluted version of someone like El Gran Capitán Passarella from the past, who also had a knack for the extraordinary).

As regards the argument that he was lucky to play in very successful teams at the right time, a lot of their (particularly Madrid's) success was predicated on his characteristics as a footballer, so it's like the Chicken or Egg paradox. Definitely not one of the greatest or most consistent traditional centerbacks in football history, but as an overall package (particularly with regard to his All-Time great attacking output), Ramos does deserve a spot in some of the most prestigious rungs of the game given the strength of his resumé, IMO.
 
If I played in a final I'd want Ramos at CB. Ultimate big game player.
 
In pure defensive sense Ramos is bang average in all time sense. His attacking contribution is something else. You’ll be hard pressed to find better one.

So depends on what you are looking at - if you want a Cb to build your back line around you should stay well away. In a possession dominant team who would also require the Cb to provide additional goalscoring threat he might be useful.
 
I find it difficult to conclusively judge Ramos as a defender. I think the obvious reservations are more down to him being a player of extremes in both directions, rather than actually being average. He could be immense sweeping up behind that Real side, and he could seriously cost them with blunders and indiscipline. Same goes for his on-the-ball contributions.

I'd put it like this: at his best, he was an impressively complete modern defender, and a big game match winner on top of that. But you could never be fully sure which version you'd get in a game. Overall, he's been an outstanding player for me.

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On Boateng: I have his peak at 2013-2016, before fitness issues wrecked him. A relatively short career high, but he was one of the best CBs in the world back then, both for Bayern and Germany.
 
Madrid were average defensively, their attack was very good but nothing outstanding when you look throughout football history and they achieved what most likely noone else will ever achieve.

A big part of that was their mentality and the main reason for that is Sergio Ramos. They had lots of heart and a calmness in all circumstances that I've never seen before in football. They could be getting outplayed away from home with the opposition's fans on top of them and there was almost an arrogant enjoyment out of it.

He was a huge part of Madrid's success. Much more so than Spain's. Was he inconsistent? Yes. Was he caught out of position a lot more often than the great centrebacks throughout football history? Yes. Part of that was his lack of awareness at times but a lot of that also had to do with having Marcelo on his left and having to defend a lot more space than most defenders do.

He had 'it', the greatness gene. And that makes up for a lot. He'll deservedly go down as an absolute God in Madrid and there aren't many players that manage that. Definitely not overrated.
 
It's hard to compare him with previous generations because he plays in such an attacker-friendly era where the requirements of a big club CB differ greatly than from previous ages. The all-round package he presents is custom-made for the modern game, while his leadership, influence and ability to defend high and exposed has been absolutely central to Real's multiple Champions League wins. Cannot get away from the rashness and number of errors though - even in a more challenging era for defenders it is still excessive. On balance, that marks him down a notch in the all-time comparisons against other all-rounders. I like @Invictus's Passarella comparison, or to go back further Santamaria who played similarly exposed in an attacking set-up, but organised and held it together well enough to win multiple European Cups.

harms said:
That depends. If you go by his trophies and personal awards then yes, but I don't think I've seen anyone who rates him as an all-time great center back like Baresi or Nesta. He was never as good as Rio, Vidic or Terry defensively, but overall as a player he's probably around their level.

That said, he's probably underrated by some (as well as overrated by others) — because his undeniable strengths aren't similar to those of your typical center back. He is quite poor at one on ones but he is fantastic at playing in a high risk high line. When you play in a high line, your mistakes will always be highlighted, and your defensive actions will be usually limited to smart positioning and an occasional interception, which aren't that visible to an untrained eye.

Plus he's definitely a fantastic leader and one of the most decisive defenders in the opposition's box.

Edit: come to think of it, Koeman is a great comparison. An undeniably fantastic center back who was quite poor (probably even worse than Ramos) in textbook defending, which haven't stopped him from winning practically everything (aside from the WC, which Ramos, actually, did). Although Koeman is an even more radical case of this.
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Think that's fair.
SharpshooterTom said:
Oh plenty do, after Real won their third CL in a row many on here were calling him the GOAT CB, just have a look at the official Ramos thread.

Half of Reddit also thinks Ramos is the GOAT.
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Certainly true, it's a fairly common view amongst teenagers, make of that what you will.
 
gibers said:
By far. He is a subpar defender prone to making errors almost every single game. There's another similar cb to him called David Luiz who people call a clown for his own comical errors.

Luiz's best position was just in front of the defence. For some reason the only manager who saw that and played him there was Rafa. Luiz was error free and quite brilliant in that position!
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He's the best defender in an era where there are no great defenders. He wouldnt be talked about anywhere near as favourably had he played the bulk of his career in the 90s or 00s.

He'll also be remembered as a massive cheat.
 
Don’t think he’s the best defender of his era, I mean statistically even what season has Madrid had comparable to City or Liverpool defence this season, the defences of Rio Vidic, the Chelsea defences of Terry and Carvahlo? Just wondering....

Varane always looked like the better cb to me as well.
 
I think he's actually quite underrated by many. He's 33 now and in decline, but over his career he's been fecking brilliant. Maybe people underrate him because he's a cnut. But what a cnut.
 
Righteous Steps said:
Don’t think he’s the best defender of his era, I mean statistically even what season has Madrid had comparable to City or Liverpool defence this season, the defences of Rio Vidic, the Chelsea defences of Terry and Carvahlo? Just wondering....

Varane always looked like the better cb to me as well.
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Speaking of overrated CBs.
 
Ramos appears to be severely underrated by a lot on here. He is not an ‘average’ defender, nor is he Baresi/Maldini.

He’s a centre half of the highest level (by today’s standards - which we can all accept is significantly lower than it was 15 years ago). He’s made a couple of big mistakes in his younger years, but some on here would have you believe he’s a Spanish Phil Jones judging by their comments.

Not an old school centre half, but he’s so dominant physically, quick and agile which lends itself to a high line, and an exceptional leader. Incredible footballer, and scores massive goals at clutch moments.

Definitely will go down as a legend, IMHO. Not for defending, but for his service to Real Madrid and to Spain.
 
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Definitely overrated. He is a very talented footballer. Just not a good defender. I always thought he was at his best early in his career when he was playing RB most of the time. And I can see him being a world class DM. But as a defender, he is caught out of position way too often. They say that the greatest deception the world has ever seen was when the devil convinced everyone that he didn't exist. I disagree. I think the greatest deception the world has even seen was when Ramos convinced most people (you can see most here are tricked too) that he is a world class defender. He's not even close to that and some of his defensive mishaps would have Phil Jones shaking his head. Yes, he is that bad...
 
He will be remembered as one of the best CBs in the history of the game, and he is not even close to that standars IMO. So yes, he is overrated.
 
Some players you can’t rank by just putting them into a neat little box like ‘centre back’ - they redefine what players from a certain position should be expected to achieve and the best way to assess their contribution is look at them holistically as ‘footballers’ rather than a ‘centre back or right back etc’.

If you’re asking was he a great centre back and the implication here is based mostly on his defending was he better than Rio etc and an all time great - no but he was a very good defender and a lot better than most are willing him to credit him with (his mistakes on the very big stages are few and far between considering how often he played in very big elite matches). He had a slight concentration issue in domestic encounters but was reliable in international and European football.

For his own generation he would go down as one of the finest defenders of his generation but behind someone like Thiago Silva.
However when we start looking at him as a total package...

His leadership, his ability to play out from the back, his set pieces ability both taking them and being on the end of them - you start to realise this was a Koeman/Passarella style defender who was a crucial attacking weapon hidden in defence. Furthermore he’s simply one of the most ‘clutch’ footballers of all time - period.

The measure of a players real greatness is how much impact they have overall on their team’s ability to win any given football match and he for me has more impact on that front than a ‘Rio, Vidic’ and dare I say it even someone like ‘Nesta’.Him being on the pitch makes you more likely to win any sort of match especially a big encounter.

He does fall short of guys like Baresi, Figueroa who could contribute offensively and defend like gods but he shouldn’t be written off when compared to defenders of previous generation who were better defensively but had nowhere near the same impact offensively. Football is much more complicate than that and he’s a primarily defensive player who transcended boundaries of what a defensive player should be capable of offensively.
 
Nah, he's certainly the best of his generation a long with being a leader and a man for the big occaision.
 
he may be overrated at defending. but he is unquestionably one of the most clutch footballers I ever seen.. he scored quite a number of crucial goals in his career.
 
Can be anything but overrated when put in the same sentence with the likes of Thiago Silva, let alone the likes of Boateng or (wtf!?) Laporte. The man is a colossus, he's had more memorable performances in the KO stages of the CL than these pretenders have appearances.
 
As a CB i dont consider him as good as his trophy cabinet might say so.

However as a player, captain and what he brings to the team he makes up for his faults as a defender.
 
dove said:
No, he is a grade A cnut of course but he is a good footballer.
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A great summary.

Ramos was an absolutely critical part of the Madrid team which won everything there was to win multiple times over in the span of a decade. Laporte can clean his shoes
 
Depends on how he is rated. If he is rated among GOATs then yeah he is overrated but if someone says he is among the best in his generation then he isn't overrated. For me he is the best CB of his generation.

If someone says he isnt/wasn't better than VVD, Laporte, Boateng then he is underrated. He brings more to the team than just defending, ManUtd fans should it better as post SAF we didn't have a CB who was good at both defending and on the ball, and also lacked a leader like him.
 
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His goal-scoring feats alone should see him ranked among the greats of the game.

Plus the Salah incident affords him United legend status along with John Terry, Demba Ba and Stevie G.

Legends all.
 
roonster09 said:
Depends on how he is rated. If he is rated among GOATs then yeah he is overrated but if someone says he is among the best in his generation then he isn't overrated. For me he is the best CB of his generation.

If someone says he isnt/wasn't better than VVD, Laporte, Boateng then he is underrated. He brings more to the team than just defending, ManUtd fans should it better as post SAF we didn't have a CB who was good at both defending and attacking and also lacked a leader like him.
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And neither do Madrid
 
roonster09 said:
Sure.

Edit: meant good on the ball.
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He is good on the ball, he has some great long passes and scores lots of important goals from set pieces.

He is however an average defender. Take the attacking part away and he is an ordinary defender. So he isnt good at both attacking and defending, he's just good at the attacking part and okay at the defending part.
 
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