Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[Stacks]

The story is Barcelona.

Guardiola favored the academy players (Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Valdes), brought back former academy players like Pique and Fabregas, and brought up Busquets, Pedro, Thiago, and Bojan.

In his last season there (11/12), 8 of the 11 most used players were from La Masia. The 12th and 13th most used players were also from La Masia. Shortly after he left, Vilanova was able to field an entire first 11 that consisted only of academy players.

If you're going to argue "well some of those players were already there" and things of that sort, then why are you bringing up Mourinho at Porto. He was there for 1.5 years, you don't have time to build jack shit in 1.5 years.

Because many of those players were already winners including European Champions and CL winners

Mostly that reflects terribly on man utd. And very positively on Klopp although he came later.

It makes me sick

A lot of Pep's signings are seen as underwhelming/overpriced at the time. It's only in hindsight that it suddenly obvious they were always going to be world beaters. The Club recently did a Combined 98/99 vs 22/23 XI video. Here's how it ended up:

Schmeichel
Neville
Stam
Dias
Irwin
Beckham
Keane
Scholes
Giggs
de Bruyne
Haaland

3/11 City players. And even then, McKola was itching to include Yorke. And I'm sure most United fans would agree. That being the case... he's got to be a pretty damn good Manager.

Now do the squads. Pretty sure, Johnson, Phil Neville, Blomqvist, Henning Berg, Wes Brown, May, Curtis, Jordi Cruyff, Greening, Teddy, may not get much play in the current era

 

[Bearded One]

I think what you wrote has its merit and I wrote myself a couple of pages back,
that Pep's football more often than not allows his excellent players to show their abilities and keep their form for large stretches of time.
I don't know what he does exactly but his players look very good. I can't remember too many instances like Kagawa or Mata, who joined us and suddenly looked half the players they were before.

But it's also they players, surely?

You say that Rashford starts ahead of Grealish in the England setup, but they're fairly close in ability, right?
well, without Rashford we're fecked, while they can manage without Grealish against most teams (Bernardo on the left flank, Foden?). They can deploy Stones as a DM if they don't have Rodri, while we are fecked without Casemiro.

They can win against most teams in the PL without KDB (fielding a team like Rodri-Silva-Gundo-Grealish-Mahrez-Haaland), while we suffer badly whenever Bruno has one of his shitty days...

I don't buy the "City have 2 WC players for every position", that's bollox.
but they still have some serious quality coming off the bench...

I think back to 2009 or 2010 for the last time I can think of teams having such strong benches;
United could have had Giggs, Scholes, Park, Berba, and Tevez on the bench.
Chelsea could have had Ballack, Joe Cole, Ivanovic, Alex, Belleti, Deco, and Malouda.

all really good players.

where the hell do you find such deep squads nowadays...

And my point on why they have such a bench is that players largely perform. It’s very easy to use hindsight to rate players. Van de Beek wasn’t bought with the intention of him not functioning for us. In fact he came off a semi final showing that he and his Ajax lads were able to achieve the year that Liverpool won the UCL and that was after a freak 96th minute goal that Lucas Muora made happen perhaps his best performance till date.

The reason why we struggle when key players are missing is what I have been pointing out all along. If the transfers we did in the last few years had worked it you’d have a formidable 11 and also substitutes. The reason why they can have a fine defender like Laporte on the bench is because Akanji is outperforming him. In fact I thought they were fecked when Cancelo who was on team of the season (premier league) left because reportedly he was stubbornly ignoring instructions from Pep. They didn’t sign a new one but converted Ake to a LCB. As if that wasn’t enough they lost Ake to injury and Akanji became a revelation in that role. This I think is commendable.

 

[Daydreamer]

Because many of those players were already winners including European Champions and CL winners

It makes me sick


Now do the squads. Pretty sure, Johnson, Phil Neville, Blomqvist, Henning Berg, Wes Brown, May, Curtis, Jordi Cruyff, Greening, Teddy, may not get much play in the current era

I'm not sure why a United fan would want to talk down your own treble squad. Of the United players not in that combined XI, I would gladly have regens of Johnsen, Neville, Brown, Solskjear, Sheringham, Yorke and Cole in a squad today. Why are we trying to pretend the 99 squad wasn't extremely talented? It had the best collection of CFs I've ever seen.

 

[Theonas]

I'm not sure why a United fan would want to talk down your own treble squad. Of the United players not in that combined XI, I would gladly have regens of Johnsen, Neville, Brown, Solskjear, Sheringham, Yorke and Cole in a squad today. Why are we trying to pretend the 99 squad wasn't extremely talented? It had the best collection of CFs I've ever seen.

It’s apparently odd for United fans to point out City’s coach is brilliant but completely okay for other United fans to claim their players are the greatest thing since sliced bread at the expense of ours. The mental gymnastics people apply because they get fed up with a “narrative”

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

And my point on why they have such a bench is that players largely perform. It’s very easy to use hindsight to rate players. Van de Beek wasn’t bought with the intention of him not functioning for us. In fact he came off a semi final showing that he and his Ajax lads were able to achieve the year that Liverpool won the UCL and that was after a freak 96th minute goal that Lucas Muora made happen perhaps his best performance till date.

The reason why we struggle when key players are missing is what I have been pointing out all along. If the transfers we did in the last few years had worked it you’d have a formidable 11 and also substitutes. The reason why they can have a fine defender like Laporte on the bench is because Akanji is outperforming him. In fact I thought they were fecked when Cancelo who was on team of the season (premier league) left because reportedly he was stubbornly ignoring instructions from Pep. They didn’t sign a new one but converted Ake to a LCB. As if that wasn’t enough they lost Ake to injury and Akanji became a revelation in that role. This I think is commendable.

Yep, I now understand your point more clearly and fully agree.

 

[Daydreamer]

It’s apparently odd for United fans to point out City’s coach is brilliant but completely okay for other United fans to claim their players are the greatest thing since sliced bread at the expense of ours. The mental gymnastics people apply because they get fed up with a “narrative”

And I forgot Nicky Butt. Quality player.

SAF is a living legend. If you don’t rate Pep above him, that’s an entirely valid argument. We don’t have to pretend Ferguson was working with scraps in 1999 in order to make that argument.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Because many of those players were already winners including European Champions and CL winners

As I pointed out before, the 2006 CL was not won by the players who won in Pep's era. Puyol and Valdés were starters that season, Iniesta was the 12th most used player, Xavi and Messi missed a lot to injury and were 16th and 17th most used. Then in the 2008 European championship, it was Xavi, Iniesta, and Puyol. No other Barcelona player was called up.

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

It's mainly the midfield & winger positions.

At any given game, you can find Mahrez, Foden, Gundogan, B. Silva, or Grealish (earlier in the season) on City's bench.
all of their direct rivals in England would kill to have these players on their starting 11.

In defense- credit to Pep. I'd be underwhelmed if United signed Akanji or Ake 1 or 2 years ago, but he makes them work really well for him,
while not being world-beaters on their own.

This is where the distinction between good players and system players is relevant. Akanji, Ake and Stones play competent limited roles within a well refined system. Take them out and put them in another team and they're average players still.

 

[Stacks]

I'm not sure why a United fan would want to talk down your own treble squad. Of the United players not in that combined XI, I would gladly have regens of Johnsen, Neville, Brown, Solskjear, Sheringham, Yorke and Cole in a squad today. Why are we trying to pretend the 99 squad wasn't extremely talented? It had the best collection of CFs I've ever seen.

I thought Yorke and Cole were a given so no need to mention them. In combinng the teams Solskjaer probably would not make it nor Sheringham. Who would Neville, Brown and Johnson kick out of the squad assuming we are playing the modern possession based system with 1 forward? Nobody plays 4-4-2 anymore.

 

[Bearded One]

Yep, I now understand your point more clearly and fully agree.

I appreciate your honesty

 

[Stacks]

As I pointed out before, the 2006 CL was not won by the players who won in Pep's era. Puyol and Valdés were starters that season, Iniesta was the 12th most used player, Xavi and Messi missed a lot to injury and were 16th and 17th most used. Then in the 2008 European championship, it was Xavi, Iniesta, and Puyol. No other Barcelona player was called up.

Xavi would have played a lot if not for his cruciate as he was an important cog. Xavi made 20 apps in 2006 despite getting injured a lot, having made over 40 apps from 2003-05, each season and even won Spanish player of the year in 2005. Iniesta made 48 apps in 2006, including a full 90 mins in the CL quarters and Semi's then 45 in the final, but apparently he did not contribute . He then played close to 50 apps every other year before Pep, he was seen as their rising star with Messi. By 2008 (pre Pep) Messi was ranked 3rd best player in the world, but I guess Pep inherited bunch of nobodies who had zero experience of success on the big stage....he made those boys, Messi included

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Xavi would have played a lot if not for his cruciate as he was an important cog.

But he didn't.

By 2008 (pre Pep) Messi was ranked 3rd best player in the world, but I guess Pep inherited bunch of nobodies who had zero experience of success on the big stage....he made those boys, Messi included.

This is the (bad) rhetorical trick a few are trying to do here.

You argue that Guardiola inherited the all-time bestest team in the world that anyone would have won a treble with. And when someone says "that isn't true" you go "WHAT, ARE YOU SAYING MESSI IS SHIT?!?"

Nobody is saying that. of course Guardiola needed some good players in order to win titles. That is true of any manager. You don't win titles with garbagemen.

 

[Stacks]

But he didn't.



This is the (bad) rhetorical trick a few are trying to do here.

You argue that Guardiola inherited the all-time bestest team in the world that anyone would have won a treble with. And when someone says "that isn't true" you go "WHAT, ARE YOU SAYING MESSI IS SHIT?!?"

Nobody is saying that. of course Guardiola needed some good players in order to win titles. That is true of any manager. You don't win titles with garbagemen.

 

[kaiser1]

I’d love to see him take a bang average side and win the premier league with it.

Ranieri already did that, Do you have him as your greatest coach ever?

 

[el3mel]

I’d love to see him take a bang average side and win the premier league with it.

Yeah he should go on and manage Leeds United and win the Premier League with them so that armchair managers on internet forums recognize him as one of the best ever.

 

[kaiser1]

Yeah he should go on and manage Leeds United and win the Premier League with them so that armchair managers on internet forums recognize him as one of the best ever.

I wonder how many of those who make such statements have Ranieri as their best coach of all time given he took Leicester to the trophy

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Ranieri's Leicester doesn't count anyway since they had Mahrez (future treble winner) and Kante (future WC/CL winner).

 

[Moston Red]

Yeah he should go on and manage Leeds United and win the Premier League with them so that armchair managers on internet forums recognize him as one of the best ever.

So….I was kind of referring to what SAF did with an average side in 2013. I’m not sure Pep could do that, based on the established sides he’s managed, and no doubt he has improved them. I guess we’ll never know as it’s very unlikely City will turn into the united team a decade ago.

 

[Moston Red]

I wonder how many of those who make such statements have Ranieri as their best coach of all time given he took Leicester to the trophy

What a stupid thing to say

 

[el3mel]

So….I was kind of referring to what SAF did with an average side in 2013. I’m not sure Pep could do that, based on the established sides he’s managed, and no doubt he has improved them. I guess we’ll never know as it’s very unlikely City will turn into the united team a decade ago.

Pep is way past this point of his career now, so what's the point ?

 

[Moston Red]

Pep is way past this point of his career now, so what's the point ?

Going off the thread title, we’re talking about Pep being the greatest manger of all time. In Peps time as a manager he has inherited quality teams, and made them better. He is brilliant at applying his tactics with quality players but from memory he has never had to build a team from scratch with a tight budget. SAF on the other hand has built, pretty much from scratch, two world class teams (1999,2008) and even won the premiership with a very average team. He’s done this with limited funds compared with the riches Pep as had.

 

[mu4c_20le]

That's not selective. It just means that they can buy players for 50m and have them sit on the bench until they come good. Stones didn't work right away? Get Laporte and then Dias in the meantime. And sure, Stones is a quality player and will obviously have an excellent season here and there (like the covid season and this one). Same with Grealish last season. Kalvin Phillips can't play? Does that mean it's 50m down the drain, affecting next year's budget? Nope. We have Rodri.

It's great planning and squad selection, but an absolute luxury to do this without worrying about where the money's going to come from. Like without that Coutinho money, there's no way Liverpool were getting all three of Van Dijk, Alisson and Fabinho. But if City wanted them, is that even a question? If you insist they sell someone, they'll just sell Scott Carson to someone for 80m in a totally legit deal and balance the books.

Exactly. Even Chelsea never had this level of doping back then. There's almost no risk of getting it wrong.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

You could not have done what he did at Barcelona. Don't kid yourself.

Are you kidding? That would have been the easiest of the 3

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Are you kidding? That would have been the easiest of the 3

Why could Tata Martino not win a single trophy with a front 6 of Busquets, Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta, Messi and Neymar if it's so easy?

And since you're better than Martino, good to know that you could win the Argentina title with Newell's Old Boys, get to the final of the Copa America with Paraguay and win the MLS Cup with Atlanta.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Are you kidding? That would have been the easiest of the 3

None of the footballers would pay any attention to you.

Stop deluding yourself please.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

from memory he has never had to build a team from scratch with a tight budget. SAF on the other hand has built, pretty much from scratch, two world class teams (1999,2008) and even won the premiership with a very average team. He’s done this with limited funds compared with the riches Pep as had.

I think there are ways of praising Alex Ferguson's abilities in management without trying to paint this picture where he's looking for coins under the couch and busking on the weekends to try and buy a footballer. He was managing Manchester United for feck's sake.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Barcelona played Manchester United in the final of the 2011 Champions League. Manchester United's starting lineup was: Van der Sar (4), Fabio (?), Ferdinand (46), Vidic (10.5), Evra (8), Valencia (19), Carrick (27), Giggs (0), Park (7), Rooney (37), and Hernandez (7.5). The total cost of that starting lineup was 166 million euros. Barcelona' starting lineup was: Valdes (0), Abidal (15m), Alves (35), Mascherano (20), Pique (5), Xavi (0), Iniesta (0), Busquets (0), Messi (0), Pedro (0), Villa (40). The total cost of that starting lineup was 115 million euros.

Barcelona also played Manchester United in the final of the 2009 Champions League. Manchester United's starting lineup was: Van der Sar (4), O'Shea (0), Ferdinand (46), Evra (8), Vidic (10.5), Anderson (31.5), Carrick (27), Giggs (0), Park (7), Rooney (37), Ronaldo (19). The total cost of that starting lineup was 190 million euros. Barcelona's starting lineup was: Valdes (0), Puyol (0), Toure (9), Pique (5), Sylvinho (1.5), Busquets (0), Xavi (0), Iniesta (0), Messi (0), Henry (24), and Eto'o (27). The total cost of that starting lineup was 66.5 million euros.

So in both cases Barcelona's squad cost considerably less than United's.

Ah, but he didn't "build" the squads. OK sure. From the 2011 starting eleven, Alves, Mascherano, Pique, Busquets, Pedro, and Villa were all integrated by him into the squad and starting eleven. They cost a total of 100 million. That comes to 20 million per player. United's squad were all integrated by Ferguson. If you divide the cost of the lineup by the number of players, it comes to 15m. Not the most dramatic difference in the world.

 

[Plant0x84]

Is he heck as like. Come back in 25 years then we can talk. This isn’t even a bias thing, it’s just fact. Fergie never had unlimited funds, Pep has, and has always started from a position of best squad in the league. SAF didn’t just build a team, he built a club. He renewed his team time and time again to dominate.

 

[Manchester Dan]

The obsession to compare and rank really brings out the worst in people. I think Pep is a top tier manager who would exist in any conversation about the best managers ever. I also put a few other managers in that category, and that’s where my opinion ends. You could go back and forth on it all day but there’ll never be a definitive answer nor does there need to be. SAF and Pep are/were both exceptional.

 

[Gehrman]

I think there are ways of praising Alex Ferguson's abilities in management without trying to paint this picture where he's looking for coins under the couch and busking on the weekends to try and buy a footballer. He was managing Manchester United for feck's sake.

Definitely but he never spent silly. I think the perception of penny pinching Fergie was post Ronaldo and Tevez where we were fecking around with Michael Owen, Valencia, Obertan and Bebe. Oh and fecking Tom Cleverly in midfield. Also the way Fergie seemed affected by flops like Veron was very different in comparison to Chelsea and City at the time. Or Real Madrid for that matter.

And of course shipping off Ince, Hughes, Kanchelskies etc. And promoting the youth of 92 at the time(you wont win anything with kids,!).

 

[Moston Red]

I think there are ways of praising Alex Ferguson's abilities in management without trying to paint this picture where he's looking for coins under the couch and busking on the weekends to try and buy a footballer. He was managing Manchester United for feck's sake.

Sorry I meant a tight budget compared to peps.

 

[Bebestation]

The way people rate managers and players seem completely different.

A Manager can't get rated if he is managing on an unlimited fund - whilst a player can get rated and reap the benefits of a whole perfect team playing in a way that makes him play as the cherry on top for over a decade.

 

[Manchester Dan]

The way people rate managers and players seem completely different.

A Manager can't get rated if he is managing on an unlimited fund - whilst a player can get rated and reap the benefits of a whole perfect team playing in a way that makes him play as the cherry on top for over a decade.

Good point. Nobody is saying Messi needs to go and prove he can do it at Dortmund before he is considered the GOAT, because he would be daft to move there.

 

[Bearded One]

Good point. Nobody is saying Messi needs to go and prove he can do it at Dortmund before he is considered the GOAT, because he would be daft to move there.

This is the point I have been making. The best players play for the biggest clubs but managers have a different criteria apparently according to the Caf. Even Pep’s work at Barca is being questioned so much so that it looks like an agenda against the man. I understand the tribal nature of football though.

 

[Bebestation]

This is the point I have been making. The best players play for the biggest clubs but managers have a different criteria apparently according to the Caf. Even Pep’s work at Barca is being questioned so much so that it looks like an agenda against the man. I understand the tribal nature of football though.

Exactly. A player can be called a GOAT playing good to a single team or two he is literally born in to - yet a great manager has to go around the world and manage a club that is poor and is looking to improve.

It’s just bullshit.

 

[Gehrman]

This is the point I have been making. The best players play for the biggest clubs but managers have a different criteria apparently according to the Caf. Even Pep’s work at Barca is being questioned so much so that it looks like an agenda against the man. I understand the tribal nature of football though.

No but Pep left Barcelona, his true home, with their greatest ever squad(with Peak Messi) the moment Mourinho pipped him to the title and looked like they were getting even. Its the opposite of Fergie who saw off the one challenge after another.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

To be fair, a player 'born into' a good team usually has to muscle his way into the starting lineup by showing their quality and competing against other top players. It's a bit different than when you are appointed manager.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Pep left Barcelona, his true home, with their greatest ever squad(with Peak Messi) the moment Mourinho pipped him to the title and looked like they were getting even.

This is not really true. You are just judging Spanish football by UK standards. Guardiola is one of their longest-serving managers.

 

[Gehrman]

This is not really true. You are just judging Spanish football by UK standards. Guardiola is one of their longest-serving managers.

What´s the difference? Fergie is anamoly yeah but other UK managers dont get that long. But Pep chose to leave. He wasnt forced out.

 

[Bebestation]

The system of Barcelona was crazy specific ever since Guardiola managed that team.

It just led a DNA that was moving on through the decade but slowly evaporating.

People can talk up Luis Enrique all they want, but to say that Guardiola was not a reason behind other managers success post his management is just wrong.

As others have said previously- Messi’s performances and stats go down and gets worse as he moves further and further away from Guardiola’s tactics and tactical type of players.

That’s not just specific to Messi - that’s arguably to Barcelona on an European stage too because they look more like Europa League team than a champions league giant that’s scaring any body the further we move from Guardiola’s management.

If Messi is the player GOAT - Guardiola’s the management GOAT.