Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[kaiser1]

Which had nothing to do with him, which he was completely unaware of and was exonerated for.

He was completely unaware his team was bribing referees and rigging games in their favor? When Moggi directly indicted him

Moggi wrote

“Dear Carlo, your claims make me think you forget about your time at Juventus and don’t realise that you are also reporting yourself," he wrote.

You were part of that ‘dirty football’ you enjoyed because it made you grow as a coach.



“You were part of that football also when Juventus lost the title under the rain in Perugia. You were part of that football when the FIGC changed the rules one week before Juventus vs Roma, giving the Giallorossi the chance to play with an extra-EU player, [Hidetoshi] Nakata, who hadn’t been allowed to play before.



“He was also decisive because he scored the equaliser that allowed Roma to win the title and you finished as a runner-up once again.



At that time, you used to come to my office to complain about the injustice suffered by Juventus. I don’t understand why you condemn this behaviour now, just like traitors who take advantage of the dirty game to grow and then, with lights off, they make whistleblowers, but only to pass as do-gooders.



“It’s easy to fish in a barrel and it costs nothing unless you have something else to declare, only with proofs because phone tappings are ready to deny and Gianfelice Facchetti knows something about it.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

He was completely unaware his team was bribing referees and rigging games in their favor? When Moggi directly indicted him

Moggi's testimony was that Ancelotti was complaining about how shite the referee's were, and so he did it to "help" him. Not that Ancelotti asked for it, or knew about it.

Is there one shred of evidence to support that he was aware?

 

[kaiser1]

Moggi's testimony was that Ancelotti was complaining about how shite the referee's were, and so he did it to "help" him. Not that Ancelotti asked for it, or knew about it.

Is there one shred of evidence to support that he was aware?

So you believed Moggi helped Ancelotti without his knowledge, Also got help at Milan without his knowledge that resultedin docked 44 points? But Pep knew about City 115 charges that happened before his time

 

[AfonsoAlves]

So you believed Moggi helped Ancelotti without his knowledge, Also got help at Milan without his knowledge that resultedin docked 44 points? But Pep knew about City 115 charges that happened before his time

The charges didn't come out of nowhere - it's been an ongoing process now for...5 years. It kicked off right when Guardiola joined. He could have literally resigned at any given point during then till now - only he hasn't because he was okay with it.

Moggi a few years ago went on a rant about Ancelotti, because Ancelotti said Calciopoli happening was a good thing.

Moggi accused Ancelotti of ignoring the fact that Juventus were getting cheated by the Italian FA, and that Ancelotti was betraying Juve by not recognising that Calciopoli was an equalizing force (in his demented view at least).

Never does he accuse Ancelotti of actually knowing anything.

Note that both he and Mancini were called forward as witnesses, but were never prosecuted.

 

[McTerminator]

Sure it was a disadvantage, but it was a deliberate choice by United to ignore English players and go for players belonging to different FAs. It was a self-inflicted problem.

It wasn’t though was it. If they signed those players after the rule was introduced then you would be right, but instead you’re just wrong.

You’re also ignoring the unique relationship between the UK nations, purposefully I suspect.

 

[DarkLord1984]

Ancelottis Milan was literally found guilty of match fixing. And docked points. I guess that's not enough cheating in your books

Don't honestly know why I'm bothering engaging with a poster who has 'Pep's Mum' as their tagline.

 

[Kwabs]

Top quality players who might not fit your style is exponentially better problem to have than having a bunch of relegation candidate fodder in your squad.

I can't believe someone is seriously making this argument.

Also, Guardiola has been implicated in doping scandals as a player, associated with dodgy doctors, implicated in Operation Puerto and then the financial doping at Man City.

Come the feck on now.

So you read something, somewhere, and automatically accept it as fact? 'Implications' and 'allegations' are not enough to convict people. That's why we have courts.

 

[Kwabs]

For many of us it's not about what he's achieved, but how he's achieved it. Shady allegations have followed him since his playing days, and many people on here simply can't overlook that. I'm one of them.

I'd have a lot more respect for his achievements if it wasn't for the cheating/doping/referee bribing allegations.

Well obviously, you're entitled to feel how you do, that's your call. But allegations are not facts. The simple truth is that as a manager, he has not been punished for anything. And clubs get punished for shady stuff all the time - look at the scandal in Italy, for example.

Now if Manchester City get punished for what they're accused of, you will have a legitimate point, and that will obviously affect his legacy. But the fact that people who are tired of finishing second (or worse) desperately want City to be guilty of something doesn't mean that they actually are. That's why we have courts - to allow a better forum of evidence-based judgment than the highly emotional 'court of public opinion.'

 

[Kwabs]

Don't honestly know why I'm bothering engaging with a poster who has 'Pep's Mum' as their tagline.

Why not address the point instead of attacking the person? Is what they said true or not?

 

[stefan92]

It wasn’t though was it. If they signed those players after the rule was introduced then you would be right, but instead you’re just wrong.

You’re also ignoring the unique relationship between the UK nations, purposefully I suspect.

It's still a fact that other top clubs took pride in signing the best players from their own country and therefore had no problems.

You are obviously right that the mess the UK is played a big part in this. And I wouldn't say I ignore it purposefully. I like to make fun of it, so I would never forget that.

BTW... UK nations? Last i checked part of the problem were players from Ireland like Keane, which isn't one of them.

 

[DarkLord1984]

Well obviously, you're entitled to feel how you do, that's your call. But allegations are not facts. The simple truth is that as a manager, he has not been punished for anything. And clubs get punished for shady stuff all the time - look at the scandal in Italy, for example.

Now if Manchester City get punished for what they're accused of, you will have a legitimate point, and that will obviously affect his legacy. But the fact that people who are tired of finishing second (or worse) desperately want City to be guilty of something doesn't mean that they actually are. That's why we have courts - to allow a better forum of evidence-based judgment than the highly emotional 'court of public opinion.'

Right. So them claiming to have this enormous revenue during covid whilst every other club was running at a loss is "other clubs who are tired of finishing second and want them to be found guilty"? Give me a break. Everyone knows that they are corrupt as feck.

A club that less than two decades ago was floundering around mid-table doesn't all of a sudden have higher revenues than Manchester United, Barcelona and Real Madrid unless there is some seriously illegal shite going on.

I guess we'll have the official word soon enough if City are guilty now that the hearing for their 130 charges of financial fraud has wrapped up. There's no smoke without fire. And there's been a hell of a lot of smoke coming out of the Etihad over the last few years.

Why not address the point instead of attacking the person? Is what they said true or not?

As others have said, Ancelotti was not directly involved in those charges. And I'm just saying that someone with that tagline is obviously going to have a biased opinion.

 

[Kwabs]

Right. So them claiming to have this enormous revenue during covid whilst every other club was running at a loss is "other clubs who are tired of finishing second and want them to be found guilty"? Give me a break. Everyone knows that they are corrupt as feck.

A club that less than two decades ago was floundering around mid-table doesn't all of a sudden have higher revenues than Manchester United, Barcelona and Real Madrid unless there is some seriously illegal shite going on.

I guess we'll have the official word soon enough if City are guilty now that the hearing for their 130 charges of financial fraud has wrapped up. There's no smoke without fire. And there's been a hell of a lot of smoke coming out of the Etihad over the last few years.



As others have said, Ancelotti was not directly involved in those charges. And I'm just saying that someone with that tagline is obviously going to have a biased opinion.

'There's no smoke without fire' and 'everyone knows' is not proof of guilt. That requires evidence that must be weighed using the balance of probabilities. And I suspect that you know this.

Even if City get punished, that is not going to stop Guardiola being viewed as a great manager, because that is what he is.

 

[CoopersDream]

This imaginary opinion that you say Klopp would have about Pep being better than him is interesting...but i gaurantee you that Klopp would bet on himself to win even more than Pep did with that barcelona side,more than what pep won at bayern,and with man citys spending power(even ignoring the cheating) just as much,if not more than pep if he were at man city instead.And he would be right aswell.

Pep massively outspent klopp in the prem,he never had to sell any of his best players to finance other signings like klopp did with coutinho,mane,wjinaldum.Part of the reason klopp had less impressive seasons were due to the injuries and fatigue that came with competing with a cheating oil club that had a deeper and more talented squad squad than anything that came before in the prem.

Multiple prem titles that pep 'won' were robbed from klopp.The highest ever points per game ratio over a two year period in the prem,belongs to klopp.Without man citys cheating,klopp would be on atleast 3 prem titles.(This is undeniable because of the 97 and 91 points totals.)

Klopp in charge of man city and their massive spending,even without cheating, wins atleast as many titles,and most likely more ucl trophies.He already got to more ucl finals,and by rights,should been on 3 prem titles,despite being easily outspent by multiple prem clubs.

He is the only manager who could,and has,overcome an oil club,cheating and pep all at once.If you disagree that klopp was robbed of titles,you are either in denial and/or condone cheating.

I guarantee you that Klopp admits he's behind Pep. He'd be absolutely delusional if he believed anything else. Klopp is brilliant, likely the second best manager since SAF, bit there's no way a manager that won 3 leagues and one UCL could ever be better than someone who won 12 leagues and 3 UCLs.

 

[McTerminator]

It's still a fact that other top clubs took pride in signing the best players from their own country and therefore had no problems.

You are obviously right that the mess the UK is played a big part in this. And I wouldn't say I ignore it purposefully. I like to make fun of it, so I would never forget that.

BTW... UK nations? Last i checked part of the problem were players from Ireland like Keane, which isn't one of them.

You have a point, but Ireland is also a special case and is intrinsically linked, It would be like Spain owning Portugal North or something.

Overall though the situation with the UK was definitely a big part of the problem. Personally prefer when we play as Great Britain in the Olympics, but I digress.

 

[arnie_ni]

Has he quit?

 

[DarkLord1984]

1 win in 13 games now. One of the worst collapses I've ever seen.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Blimey, they're having Abit of a shitter.

 

[RedRocket9908]

This Tweet is pretty much spot on

 

[DarkLord1984]

Chequebook manager.

 

[redallover87]

I guarantee you that Klopp admits he's behind Pep. He'd be absolutely delusional if he believed anything else. Klopp is brilliant, likely the second best manager since SAF, bit there's no way a manager that won 3 leagues and one UCL could ever be better than someone who won 12 leagues and 3 UCLs.

Pep has the better trophy haul,but he should have given the players that he had at barca,the fact that he was at munich,so winning the league with them is always fully expected,and then he went to a cheating club that easily outspent everybody.It would be absurd to not to expect a much bigger list of honours won.

Put aside pep winning titles and 2 ucl trophies at barca because 1)if he had that side(which is seen as probably the best side ever,including the best ever player in his prime)but didnot win those trophies he would have greatly underachieved 2)klopp was building up a team with dortmund so winning titles while up against bayern is massively overachieving.3)barca paying refs during those seasons.

Pep has won more partly because he had many seasons with a great barca side,so that is about 18 seasons at clubs with amazing squads.

So lets compare klopp at dortmund to pep at bayern...both won the bundesliga,but klopp got to a ucl final,despite losing some of his star players to bayern,who they faced.Pep underachieved at bayern,i guess he either needs messi or managing a cheating oil club aka easy mode.

Then at man city,he never underachieved but he never overachieved either, because with the team he inherited, and man citys spending power compared to lfc(who had to sell star players to bring in big signings)there was no season where pep shouldnot win the league.His number of ucl wins at man city is underwhelming,and klopp reached more ucl finals during that time.Klopp also inherited a very poor lfc squad.

Pep has never overachieved,but klopp did multiple times.

Then there is the cheating,where klopp fully deserved 3 prem titles instead of 1.

So from around 2010 to 2024(klopps seasons with great players) klopp won:2 bundesliga titles,3 prem titles and the ucl.While reaching 4 ucl finals.

Pep won:the bundesliga.Pep cheated his way to :6 prem titles and a ucl,reaching 2 ucl finals.

Conclusion:Take away the cheating and pep has won the bundesliga at bayern,thats it!Add the trophies gained through cheating and his resume looks amazing.

Klopp wins as much if not more with that barca side,he did better at dortmund than pep did at bayern,and klopp with man citys spending power would have won more than pep has.

So i agree that peps credentials on paper seem far better,that is obvious,but to believe that he is better than klopp you need: 1)To turn a blind eye to a huge amount of cheating. 2)pretend that klopps spending was anywhere near man citys.3)ignore the fact that pep inherited great sides so has had about 18 seasons managing great squads.Where as klopp only had about 9 seasons with a great squad(afew seasons at dortmund and 2018 -2024 at liverpool.)

He only had about 9 seasons where he had a great team(one of which was a write off because of a huge injury crisis aswell)yet he still (rightfully) won 5 titles and a ucl.

Compare klopp to Sir Alex:they both inherited mediocre squads,Sir Alex took 7 years to win the prem(with no oil clubs or cheats in the league)whereas Klopp won the prem and ucl within 5 years,and it would have been 3 prem titles and a ucl in his first 7 years if not for man city cheating.Ofcourse Sir Alex went on to win a huge number of trophies,mainly because of his highly impressive longevity.

 

[cirilus]

The Negreira case (refs chief who Barça paid for 17 years), the Puerto operation (high level doping organization), just to mention a few.
You dont think every one at top level Barcelona knew about it?

Why did Bruno, Maguire reacted that way against Arsenal? You think players at top lever dont know? (in this case the obvious bias from the ref)

Just read Bernard Tapie book. Everyone at the top level knows. But its not black or white. Sometimes you try to cheat and you cant.

Other times there is cheat from every angle and games dont allow. Other times "things happen" during the game.

Pep will always be one the best in history, but most of his winnings came from two criminal organizations. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have won some of those titles.

 

[lexisonfire]

@redallover87
Just wish to note that Klopp got Mainz relegated in 2007 and Dortmund also came close to relegation in the season he left, we were 2nd last in the Hinrunde. Nevertheless I do still think Klopp is a fantastic coach and didn't want him out even at the lowest lows of 2014/15, nobody wanted him sacked and everyone was gutted when he announced he would leave in summer 2015 instead of seeing out his contract. The reason why he left Liverpool on a relative high was likely because at Mainz and Dortmund things started to go awry after the 7th year mark and he didn't want to risk his Liverpool legacy by having an unexpected poor season perhaps.

On best managers: If Fergie and Ancelotti are great man-managers, then Klopp is a nice balance of 50% man-management skills and 50% tactical acumen, and folks like Pep and Tuchel are great tacticians who aren't as likeable due to their neuroticism. Pep will be more influential tactically and is most likely amongst his peers and predecessors to still be relevant in 22nd century football discussions, even if his overall demeanor seems less than affable sometimes.

 

[CoopersDream]

Pep has the better trophy haul,but he should have given the players that he had at barca,the fact that he was at munich,so winning the league with them is always fully expected,and then he went to a cheating club that easily outspent everybody.It would be absurd to not to expect a much bigger list of honours won.

Put aside pep winning titles and 2 ucl trophies at barca because 1)if he had that side(which is seen as probably the best side ever,including the best ever player in his prime)but didnot win those trophies he would have greatly underachieved 2)klopp was building up a team with dortmund so winning titles while up against bayern is massively overachieving.3)barca paying refs during those seasons.

It's seen as the best side ever exactly because he made them the best side ever. No one expected him to win every available trophy in his first 18 months, but he did. It makes no sense using hindsight saying it was the best team ever which would have made it a failiure not winning when he was the reason they are known as the best ever.

Pep has never overachieved,but klopp did multiple times.

Pep has won two trebles. Trebles certainly are overachieving, so yes, Pep has also overachieved multiple times.

Klopp wins as much if not more with that barca side,he did better at dortmund than pep did at bayern,and klopp with man citys spending power would have won more than pep has.

So i agree that peps credentials on paper seem far better,that is obvious,but to believe that he is better than klopp you need: 1)To turn a blind eye to a huge amount of cheating. 2)pretend that klopps spending was anywhere near man citys.3)ignore the fact that pep inherited great sides so has had about 18 seasons managing great squads.Where as klopp only had about 9 seasons with a great squad(afew seasons at dortmund and 2018 -2024 at liverpool.)

This is just speculation, you have no idea what Klopp would have won with any of Pep's sides. There's no doubt Klopp is a brilliant manager, as far as I am concerned the second best of the current era. While Klopp (and Liverpool) deserves a lot of credit for building a great side with a somewhat limited budget, the team he did end up with was pretty brilliant. I can easily say that given the team he ended up with it would have been a failure on his side not to win anything major with it.

He only had about 9 seasons where he had a great team(one of which was a write off because of a huge injury crisis aswell)yet he still (rightfully) won 5 titles and a ucl.

He won three titles, don't rewrite history.

Compare klopp to Sir Alex:they both inherited mediocre squads,Sir Alex took 7 years to win the prem(with no oil clubs or cheats in the league)whereas Klopp won the prem and ucl within 5 years,and it would have been 3 prem titles and a ucl in his first 7 years if not for man city cheating.Ofcourse Sir Alex went on to win a huge number of trophies,mainly because of his highly impressive longevity.

I think Klopp's brilliant and all, but there's no need to compare him to Alex. It was a different time when SAF took over, and his record speaks for itself.

 

[erikcred]

It's seen as the best side ever exactly because he made them the best side ever. No one expected him to win every available trophy in his first 18 months, but he did. It makes no sense using hindsight saying it was the best team ever which would have made it a failiure not winning when he was the reason they are known as the best ever.

Pep has won two trebles. Trebles certainly are overachieving, so yes, Pep has also overachieved multiple times.

This is just speculation, you have no idea what Klopp would have won with any of Pep's sides. There's no doubt Klopp is a brilliant manager, as far as I am concerned the second best of the current era. While Klopp (and Liverpool) deserves a lot of credit for building a great side with a somewhat limited budget, the team he did end up with was pretty brilliant. I can easily say that given the team he ended up with it would have been a failure on his side not to win anything major with it.

He won three titles, don't rewrite history.

At Barcelona it was, since it came out of nowhere.

But not at City. When you have a financially doped up squad with 100m players on the bench, a domestic treble is a realistic target at the beginning of every season. The only unpredictable factor is the CL and even there, a semi-final appearance is the minimum expected in every season. I would say that a quadruple would've been the right challenge for someone playing with cheat codes on in this way. And even there, Klopp got to within a game and 15 minutes of achieving it before Pep ever even got to the treble.

I think Klopp's brilliant and all, but there's no need to compare him to Alex. It was a different time when SAF took over, and his record speaks for itself.

This I agree with. Another one of those "SAF took 7 years to win, so [insert opinion about another manager who took/is taking years to win]". How do people not tire of doing this?

 

[CoopersDream]

But not at City. When you have a financially doped up squad with 100m players on the bench, a domestic treble is a realistic target at the beginning of every season. The only unpredictable factor is the CL and even there, a semi-final appearance is the minimum expected in every season. I would say that a quadruple would've been the right challenge for someone playing with cheat codes on in this way. And even there, Klopp got to within a game and 15 minutes of achieving it before Pep ever even got to the treble.

Look, I'm not going to say City is a difficult job or anything but the advantage of being able to bring on expensive subs is only the advantage you suggest it is if no other club can do the same. There are multiple clubs that have extremely expensive players on the bench regularly, that's not something unique for City.

There has been incredible teams before in the PL but only one team has ever one the domestic treble. It's not easy.

 

[diarm]

This thread upsets me every time I see it on the front page.

It's not anger as such, so much as a sense of utter pessimism at the modern deterioration of all that is good about sport.

 

[DarkLord1984]

Reports coming out saying that him signing the latest extension at City was the deciding factor in his divorce. Apparently she had been living in Spain for the last 5 years and was expecting him to leave City and rejoin her.

When he decided to extend his contract, she saw it as him putting himself and football before her, so she called it quits.

 

[Pughnichi]

Of course he is a great manager

I just don’t think he’s the greatest.

He can obviously manage a team/club to a good standard but let’s be honest. He hit the jackpot at Barca with xavi, Iniesta, busquets and Messi. He went to Bayern who were/are serial winners domestically and did worse than his predecessor and moved to city where he’s had an open cheque book since his arrival.

Reiterate he can obviously manage a club to a good standard, but not for me

 

[Rodgerzzz]

Reports coming out saying that him signing the latest extension at City was the deciding factor in his divorce. Apparently she had been living in Spain for the last 5 years and was expecting him to leave City and rejoin her.

When he decided to extend his contract, she saw it as him putting himself and football before her, so she called it quits.

Well atleast we can confirm he's definitely not the greatest husband of all time

 

[DarkLord1984]

Well atleast we can confirm he's definitely not the greatest husband of all time

True that. Fergie never got divorced!

 

[bgoodall]

It’s a no for me. Would like to see how he would do with some of the squads Sir Alex had. Particularly his last season.

 

[kaiser1]

It’s a no for me. Would like to see how he would do with some of the squads Sir Alex had. Particularly his last season.

He beat Ferguson fairly easily in both finals though. He actually handed Ferguson what he described as the worst loss of his career

 

[kaiser1]

Pep has the better trophy haul,but he should have given the players that he had at barca,the fact that he was at munich,so winning the league with them is always fully expected,and then he went to a cheating club that easily outspent everybody. It would be absurd to not to expect a much bigger list of honours won.

Chelsea and Man Utd have outspent City in the time Pep has been there

Put aside pep winning titles and 2 ucl trophies at barca because 1)if he had that side(which is seen as probably the best side ever,including the best ever player in his prime)but didnot win those trophies he would have greatly underachieved 2)klopp was building up a team with dortmund so winning titles while up against bayern is massively overachieving.3)barca paying refs during those seasons.

When Pep was joining Barcelona in summer 2008, No one expected him to win a CL never mind win 2 and a sextuple within his first 18months

 

[kaiser1]

Of course he is a great manager

I just don’t think he’s the greatest.

He can obviously manage a team/club to a good standard but let’s be honest. He hit the jackpot at Barca with xavi, Iniesta, busquets and Messi. He went to Bayern who were/are serial winners domestically and did worse than his predecessor and moved to city where he’s had an open cheque book since his arrival.

Reiterate he can obviously manage a club to a good standard, but not for me

He left Barcelona in 2012. And till the last of those players left over 10yrs later, Barcelona only won the CL 1 time while Pep won 2 times in 4yrs with the same Barcelona

 

[Pughnichi]

He left Barcelona in 2012. And till the last of those players left over 10yrs later, Barcelona only won the CL 1 time while Pep won 2 times in 4yrs with the same Barcelona

Maybe it wasn’t Pep they struggled to replace…but Xavi...who is in the conversation when it comes to best midfielders to ever play the game. He only managed 3 more years there. 2 of which were pretty much wasted under Tito and Martino!!

 

[kaiser1]

Maybe it wasn’t Pep they struggled to replace…but Xavi...who is in the conversation when it comes to best midfielders to ever play the game. He only managed 3 more years there. 2 of which were pretty much wasted under Tito and Martino!!

Pre Pep, Xavi was seen as a nothing player and was about to be sold off by Barcelona.

After Pep, Barcelona with Xavi was getting smashed 7-0 by Bayern. By 2014 they crashed out before the semis. 2015 Xavi was no longer a regular

 

[Pughnichi]

Pre Pep, Xavi was seen as a nothing player and was about to be sold off by Barcelona.

After Pep, Barcelona with Xavi was getting smashed 7-0 by Bayern. By 2014 they crashed out before the semis. 2015 Xavi was no longer a regular

I don’t disagree. I’ve suggested in my original post that he is a great manager. I still maintain that he has walked into clubs already in strong positions

 

[Idxomer]

He struggles in the first half of the season and his masters spend 300m+ to get him a few signings in January.

He's the greatest chequebook manager of all time, that's for sure.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Pre Pep, Xavi was seen as a nothing player and was about to be sold off by Barcelona.

After Pep, Barcelona with Xavi was getting smashed 7-0 by Bayern. By 2014 they crashed out before the semis. 2015 Xavi was no longer a regular

Are we just rewriting history now?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The argument that Guardiola had some luck/good fortune in managing Xavi, Iniesta, etc. is not without merit.

At the same time, it's not a random club that appointed a random manager. He rose through the ranks there as a player, had a long and successful career, and then eventually came back to rise through the ranks as a manager.

Suppose you have a guy who starts working at a tech company as an intern, then rises through the ranks until he's one of the lead engineers, and then leaves for a competitor. Then he comes back for some executive program and is eventually appointed CTO and the company does amazingly well for a few years. You wouldn't really say "well he's just lucky they had some good engineers at the time."