Moyes was probably a favorable appointment among the Glazer's, due to his history of spending. The irony now is that the Glazer's will need to fund more transfers than ever before because of Moyes.
Is our plan just to throw money at everything?
- Thread starter mic.m
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
I would say that yes, our answer at this moment in time is to throw money at the problem.
We have been managed into a situation where dont really have any choice.
We have been managed into a situation where dont really have any choice.
Man for man our squad is no worse than Liverpool, certainly good enough with the additions of Fellaini, Mata and Januzaj to challenge for the title this season and to finish comfortably in the top four.
The main problem has been the rigid team shape, the outdated Moyes tactic of defending space, the distance between players reducing the ability to play possession based, progressive football.
The whole point of how you set your team up strategically and and tactically is to try and ensure that your team performs greater than the sum of its individual parts. Irregardless of whether or not Liverpool win the league, Brendan Rogers has succeeded where Moyes has, so far failed.
Throwing money at the squad will not significantly change things if we continue to adopt the same negative tactics next season. we can expect more of the same, just with slightly better players. Already £65M spent on Fellaini which was a panic buy, and Mata quality though he is, was not a priority.
In his time at Old Trafford so far he has revealed little of a football strategy, even less of an ability to take on and beat good sides, not even great sides, with progressive attacking football. A footballing philosophy based on attacking football should permeate through the whole club from academy through to first team, recruitment and sales. That has traditionally been the case at Utd. Brendan Rogers is doing that at Liverpool and Utd deserve and need that too.
From my perspective you firstly get the footballing philosophy right, you get the coaching right and you get the tactics right. It is only then that you can make decisions about individual player acquisitions, sales, retention etc.
Undoubtedly money needs to be spent in midfield and defence but it is not a revolution necessitating 'throwing money' at the problem. Three or four players out and three of four players in. I will leave others to debate who and at what cost. All I will say is that some of the fees / wages being quoted for unproven premiership players are nigh on ridiculous.
All season long we have been waiting for Moyes' masterplan to take shape - we are all still waiting. He has shown no footballing philosophy or ability to get the most out of this squad of Premiership winning players. Quite the reverse in my view he has 'lowered the bar' of expectation to a level unseen at Utd in a generation, and if I was the Glazers, I would be re-examining very closely Moyes pedigree relative to other better qualified candidates, before I released additional significant sums.
The main problem has been the rigid team shape, the outdated Moyes tactic of defending space, the distance between players reducing the ability to play possession based, progressive football.
The whole point of how you set your team up strategically and and tactically is to try and ensure that your team performs greater than the sum of its individual parts. Irregardless of whether or not Liverpool win the league, Brendan Rogers has succeeded where Moyes has, so far failed.
Throwing money at the squad will not significantly change things if we continue to adopt the same negative tactics next season. we can expect more of the same, just with slightly better players. Already £65M spent on Fellaini which was a panic buy, and Mata quality though he is, was not a priority.
In his time at Old Trafford so far he has revealed little of a football strategy, even less of an ability to take on and beat good sides, not even great sides, with progressive attacking football. A footballing philosophy based on attacking football should permeate through the whole club from academy through to first team, recruitment and sales. That has traditionally been the case at Utd. Brendan Rogers is doing that at Liverpool and Utd deserve and need that too.
From my perspective you firstly get the footballing philosophy right, you get the coaching right and you get the tactics right. It is only then that you can make decisions about individual player acquisitions, sales, retention etc.
Undoubtedly money needs to be spent in midfield and defence but it is not a revolution necessitating 'throwing money' at the problem. Three or four players out and three of four players in. I will leave others to debate who and at what cost. All I will say is that some of the fees / wages being quoted for unproven premiership players are nigh on ridiculous.
All season long we have been waiting for Moyes' masterplan to take shape - we are all still waiting. He has shown no footballing philosophy or ability to get the most out of this squad of Premiership winning players. Quite the reverse in my view he has 'lowered the bar' of expectation to a level unseen at Utd in a generation, and if I was the Glazers, I would be re-examining very closely Moyes pedigree relative to other better qualified candidates, before I released additional significant sums.
Regardless of which manager took over from Fergie, they were going to have to spend big this summer regardless - I really don't see how people can turn this into anything against Moyes. He is pretty much trying to buy the players we have been screaming out for, for years!
Evra, Rio and I think Vidic were all going to leave after this season. They need replacing.
Our CM area has been our achilles heel for years - at least Moyes is setting about trying to address this. I know someone will throw Fellaini back at this, but we defo haven't seen the best, or even average, of him yet.
So is our plan to throw money at players, then I guess it is, because that is what we have to do to remain competitive - regardless of who manages us.
If Klopp, Gaal and co came in and were threatening to throw 200m at players the Caf would be knee deep in their own spunk now.
Evra, Rio and I think Vidic were all going to leave after this season. They need replacing.
Our CM area has been our achilles heel for years - at least Moyes is setting about trying to address this. I know someone will throw Fellaini back at this, but we defo haven't seen the best, or even average, of him yet.
So is our plan to throw money at players, then I guess it is, because that is what we have to do to remain competitive - regardless of who manages us.
If Klopp, Gaal and co came in and were threatening to throw 200m at players the Caf would be knee deep in their own spunk now.
Don't think it's so much the Glazers for some on here,it's more about who's being allowed to spend that money.
Fair enough, but I can't help feeling that we might have done better, especially in Europe, if we had strengthened the side after 2008.
We are paying a price for trying to be clever. I guess we could see it coming though, with all this “value in the market” etc. I don’t care how much money we spend, as long as players improve our starting eleven, we have enough squad players.
I expect us to spend a lot more than usual. Even then, we won’t be signing world-class players.
Yes, in the name of the tradition of Manchester United, we will be throwing extortionate money around to support our mid table manager and paying over the odds everywhere. It's the United way apparently. We must keep our traditional values.
Hopefully.
Actually if we threw money at our former best manager in the world and Ferguson added to our squad, we'd have won more and wouldn't have to throw it around now.
I want the club to be debt free and run properly with a sustainable wage bill, and a healthy academy of young talent. It would be far more beneficial to Manchester United if we built our team around a spine of English talent from our young players, with a silver lining of benefitting the country.
Unfortunately most of our youngsters are not ready, and those that are play in positions where we have an abundance of senior competition. You have to question the logic of purchasing Fellaini for 27.5m and [reportedly] £120,000 p/w to replace Cleverly this season. I'm no 'big' fan of Tom but I'd rather have an Englishman, who's spent his life at our club over some overpriced Belgium lump who is arguably even worse. Panic buy.
Then theres Mata, another no.10, when we couldn't even fit Kagawa into the team because our two best players are strikers. But you can't leave RvP or Rooney out for Kagawa to play in his preferred position, so we go and buy a more expensive, premier league proven no.10 who will surely make it easier to drop or show the door to one of those two. This is surely the end plan as we transition from 4-2-2 to 4-2-3-1.
Would we really be in a worse position this season had we not made these two signings? Imagine the money we could spend in the summer on our genuine deficiencies had we not made them. I just hope we don't make the same mistake this summer, there certainly seems more intent from the club but that still doesn't mean we will get our main targets, and if we don't we simply can't afford more marquee signings in positions where we have ample quality, that would be "throwing money".
Unfortunately most of our youngsters are not ready, and those that are play in positions where we have an abundance of senior competition. You have to question the logic of purchasing Fellaini for 27.5m and [reportedly] £120,000 p/w to replace Cleverly this season. I'm no 'big' fan of Tom but I'd rather have an Englishman, who's spent his life at our club over some overpriced Belgium lump who is arguably even worse. Panic buy.
Then theres Mata, another no.10, when we couldn't even fit Kagawa into the team because our two best players are strikers. But you can't leave RvP or Rooney out for Kagawa to play in his preferred position, so we go and buy a more expensive, premier league proven no.10 who will surely make it easier to drop or show the door to one of those two. This is surely the end plan as we transition from 4-2-2 to 4-2-3-1.
Would we really be in a worse position this season had we not made these two signings? Imagine the money we could spend in the summer on our genuine deficiencies had we not made them. I just hope we don't make the same mistake this summer, there certainly seems more intent from the club but that still doesn't mean we will get our main targets, and if we don't we simply can't afford more marquee signings in positions where we have ample quality, that would be "throwing money".
Im guessing the plan right now is to spend big this summer and maybe next (depending on if we land our targets this summer). From then on in we'll probably look to develop our youth system, scouting system, infrastructure etc and pick up good youngsters, unpolished diamonds etc.
It seems that this is something Moyes has been working on already.
It seems that this is something Moyes has been working on already.
I'm not worried about what fees we are paying to get the players we need. My only concern is we Do get the players we need to win the title. The club is financially sound and well run.
It's not the solution to all of the clubs on-field issues, but at the same time, a relatively sizeable rebuilding process is needed at the club in the form of four - six signings in my opinion. I'm apprehensive at the prospect of the club giving Moyes a 'war-chest' and I really don't believe the £200M figures being banded about are necessary. Were we to make some astute signings we really shouldn't be looking at an expenditure in excess of £100M-£125M.
We'll have to pay a premium for a lot of our signings I think most United fans are resigned to that and even people who work internally within the club. We won't possess the allure of Champions League football or a great manager to work under, so that means over-paying in terms of wages also and such are some of our apparent deficiencies that clubs will resort to extortion if we show an interest in midfield targets, like Carvalho, Kroos, etc. But £200M in one window is still unrealistic to most clubs.
In terms of net spend however, it might merely be around £50M which we are accustomed to, more or less, every summer transfer window. Hopefully there will be a bit of an exodus of out-going players and we'll be able to recoup some transfer funds as well as wages. If for example we sell Young and Rio retires, that's over £200K recouped in wages that can go towards a stellar signing.
Hopefully we also see some youth team players promoted to squad roles next season in some capacity, like Powell, Varela, M. Keane, etc. We have a very large squad as it is that needs to be refined. Twelve out-goings and five arrivals, as well a few players promoted from within might suffice.
We'll have to pay a premium for a lot of our signings I think most United fans are resigned to that and even people who work internally within the club. We won't possess the allure of Champions League football or a great manager to work under, so that means over-paying in terms of wages also and such are some of our apparent deficiencies that clubs will resort to extortion if we show an interest in midfield targets, like Carvalho, Kroos, etc. But £200M in one window is still unrealistic to most clubs.
In terms of net spend however, it might merely be around £50M which we are accustomed to, more or less, every summer transfer window. Hopefully there will be a bit of an exodus of out-going players and we'll be able to recoup some transfer funds as well as wages. If for example we sell Young and Rio retires, that's over £200K recouped in wages that can go towards a stellar signing.
Hopefully we also see some youth team players promoted to squad roles next season in some capacity, like Powell, Varela, M. Keane, etc. We have a very large squad as it is that needs to be refined. Twelve out-goings and five arrivals, as well a few players promoted from within might suffice.
I'm not a massive fan of the idea that Moyes thinks the solution to our problems is to spend feckloads of money completely rehashing the squad. Of course he almost certainly doesn't think that, the media just want us to think that he thinks that. But for me aside from the never-fecking-ending lack of that midfield signing or two, our problem is with the system and the coaching, not the players. The media and a lot of fans like the idea that our players are all shit and Fergie was working some kind of miracle at the end, but I reckon that's a load of bollocks.
Which is not to say that I want rid of Moyes, not in the slightest. But I'd like to think he recognises that the problem is more something that he has to solve on the training pitches (and in his head) than on our squad roster. CMs, yes. A LB, yes. Replacements for old players who leave (Giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic) - yes, obviously, that would be true in any season at any team. But getting rid of anyone like Hernandez, Valencia, Kagawa, RVP, Cleverley etc, no. There's no need.
Anderson can go, obviously. And I wouldn't shed a tear if Young never pulled the shirt on again.
Which is not to say that I want rid of Moyes, not in the slightest. But I'd like to think he recognises that the problem is more something that he has to solve on the training pitches (and in his head) than on our squad roster. CMs, yes. A LB, yes. Replacements for old players who leave (Giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic) - yes, obviously, that would be true in any season at any team. But getting rid of anyone like Hernandez, Valencia, Kagawa, RVP, Cleverley etc, no. There's no need.
Anderson can go, obviously. And I wouldn't shed a tear if Young never pulled the shirt on again.
There's no denying, Moyes is the main culprit to how our season has panned out, along with his coaching staff, but some United fans will have you believe Moyes inherited a 'special squad' which simply isn't true. It's a squad that should quite easily be competing for top four under the right management and coaching, but it's still a squad SAF excelled immeasurably to win the title.
A good squad that Moyes is underachieving with, yes. But a squad that still needs a bit of an overhaul and a number of additions.
A good squad that Moyes is underachieving with, yes. But a squad that still needs a bit of an overhaul and a number of additions.
Our squad is pretty shite, so we need to spend big to catch up.
I always thought one of the 'good' things about Moyes was that he was excellent at unearthing relatively unknown 'gems'.
If you look at the names we're being linked to, they're all 'obvious' and bring an established price tag with them. We do need to strengthen, but I cannot believe that there aren't full backs out there that are cheap and have strong potential that we have been looking at. 30m on a left back (Shaw) is madness, even if he is pretty good.
When you look at the very best buys in the prem over the past few years, not all are 'marquee'. Players like Zabaleta, Kompany, Evra, Vidic, Ivanovic and so forth are out there, and I hope we're in that market as well as the 'media stars'. Sometimes its a no brainer, like the best players in Spain outside of the big 2 (Aguero, Silva), but we need options that are 'value'. They also won't come with the pressure we've heaped on Fellaini/Berbatov/etc.
If you look at the names we're being linked to, they're all 'obvious' and bring an established price tag with them. We do need to strengthen, but I cannot believe that there aren't full backs out there that are cheap and have strong potential that we have been looking at. 30m on a left back (Shaw) is madness, even if he is pretty good.
When you look at the very best buys in the prem over the past few years, not all are 'marquee'. Players like Zabaleta, Kompany, Evra, Vidic, Ivanovic and so forth are out there, and I hope we're in that market as well as the 'media stars'. Sometimes its a no brainer, like the best players in Spain outside of the big 2 (Aguero, Silva), but we need options that are 'value'. They also won't come with the pressure we've heaped on Fellaini/Berbatov/etc.
Complacency and even arrogance in the transfer market for years will force us to throw money.
I agree. Shaw is good but with that kinda money you'd wanna buy a confirmed player and not an unproven kid.
I agree. Shaw is good but with that kinda money you'd wanna buy a confirmed player and not an unproven kid.
I have no problem with us spending big now, we have to correct years of relative underspending that have left us with quite a flawed squad. We probably also want to make a few statement signings to show we still have plenty of weight to throw around. A few big signings to underline our status as one of the giants of world football will probably help change the perception of the direction the club is heading.
My problem is with people using the prospect of an improved squad to justify giving Moyes more time. Some posters' argument seems to be "we'll spend big in the summer and then we'll see an improvement next year". This is certainly true but it still wouldn't mean Moyes is the right man for the job.
If we're spending big to compensate for our manager then we have a big problem, regardless of how that improved squad does. We need to see Moyes turn the squad into more than the sum of its parts, regardless of how good those parts are.
My problem is with people using the prospect of an improved squad to justify giving Moyes more time. Some posters' argument seems to be "we'll spend big in the summer and then we'll see an improvement next year". This is certainly true but it still wouldn't mean Moyes is the right man for the job.
If we're spending big to compensate for our manager then we have a big problem, regardless of how that improved squad does. We need to see Moyes turn the squad into more than the sum of its parts, regardless of how good those parts are.
You seem to be contradicting yourself there, one minute we're spending big to correct years of underspending then the next we're spending big to compensate for our manager.
As for giving Moyes more time, of course an acceptable improvement next year would do that. It would hardly make sense to let him buy all his players then punt him even if there's a big improvement.
This.
Moyes' strength was always his activity in the transfer market: his ability to find players like Arteta and Mirallas that had been overlooked by others. Where is the evidence of this now?
Despite taking our scouting system into the ICloud era we haven't been able to unearth any gems. All our targets are well known. We may as well have done our scouring on FIFA.
No contradiction, I don't know whether we're spending for the second reason or not. That's why I use the word "if", I'm just speculating there.
The squad is weak and needs investment, so spending more now makes sense. That's true regardless of who the manager is.
However, increased quality should come with increased expectations. If expectations increase then I have no problem, Moyes will either reach that level or he won't. I only have an issue with the notion of Moyes spending 200m to reach a standard he should've been able to reach with the current squad anyway.
Was before those bastards from Florida took over. According to the Torygraph, since the Glazers slithered into Old Trafford: "In total, over £696 million has gone towards interest fees, bank charges and debt repayment, with £382.9 million being invested in players – from the £2 million signing of Edwin van der Sar a month after the takeover to the £37.1 million purchase of club-record buy Juan Mata..."
That doesn't take into consideration the tax and dividend 'savings' made over that time. The difference is nowhere near £696m, so that's really a false figure. Besides had we not been purchased, we'd have turned into Arsenal about the same time Arsenal did in the face of the sugar-daddy revolution. So pros and cons.
Damned if we recruit big signings, damned if we don't.
Moyes should go, but he gets stick for everything.
Moyes should go, but he gets stick for everything.
If he does go I'd rather he not spend £100m on the way out in signings that the next guy might not even fancy.
spending big isn't necessarily spending wisely. Just ask any Spurs, Liverpool or Manchester City fan. I know we need to rebuild but I'm concerned about our strategy.
Or it shows that Fergie was telling the truth the whole time that funds have always been available, but he just didn't see any value in the market.
Not when you're desperate. Evra is most likely leaving us with just Buttner on that left side. Are you comfortable going into next season with Buttner as our only option?
Absolutely not, but there are literally dozens of first team left backs we could be looking at that don't cost 30m and aren't full of 'potential'.
Spending some serious money isn't the issue, in fact considering the size of the club and the revenue it generates, we really should have spent more in the past few years, and not missed out on players due to a few milion here and there.
The issue, however, is that I have absolutely no trust in Moyes spending the money on the right players. And if he does waste a load of money, then we really will be in a mess as we'll have players on huge wages, who we've spent massive amounts of money on.
The issue, however, is that I have absolutely no trust in Moyes spending the money on the right players. And if he does waste a load of money, then we really will be in a mess as we'll have players on huge wages, who we've spent massive amounts of money on.
Knowing Moyes he'll try to throw money at everything, but he won't have sealed the notes in a tight rubber hand, so they'll all just float away, leading to him saying he'll try to get a better rubber band for next time.
Our plan is to wait ...........................................................................................
Why do I have a feeling we might get 1 class player at the right amount and a bunch of overpriced types.. Seems every agent in town wants a piece, we are gonna be royally screwed if the said amount is available or maybe its just another united media circus. Being a part of the headline when not winning.
I have no problems with the club spending big money. Lets face it guys, this squad does lack of quality. The likes of Keane, Scholes, Rio and Giggs have retired (or are very close to retire) and were never really replaced. Vidic and possible Evra are also leaving. Not to forget Ronaldo who was replaced by, erm, Valencia. That's one hell of a team which left/is leaving without us having any quality replacement for them.
Its so easy to blame Moyes on this but deep down we all know that it wasn't entirely his fault. Ok the Fellaini deal was ridiculous. He adds absolutely nothing to the side and had only increased our alarming number of squad players. However we must admit that our recent strategy of aiming for safe bets (many of them are EPL proven players) hasn't really paid off, some dead wood should have left long ago and on the youth front we backed the wrong horses with the likes of Rossi and Pogba leaving the club while players like Cleverley were retained.
Moyes is doing what every fan out there wanted SAF to do ie take risks and bring some real quality to the side. I have only 2 concerns ie whether Moyes is targeting unrealistic targets (Kroos deal does sound alot like Fabregas one) + whether he's the right man to conduct such job. However I wont criticize him from strengthening the side. This squad screams for quality
Its so easy to blame Moyes on this but deep down we all know that it wasn't entirely his fault. Ok the Fellaini deal was ridiculous. He adds absolutely nothing to the side and had only increased our alarming number of squad players. However we must admit that our recent strategy of aiming for safe bets (many of them are EPL proven players) hasn't really paid off, some dead wood should have left long ago and on the youth front we backed the wrong horses with the likes of Rossi and Pogba leaving the club while players like Cleverley were retained.
Moyes is doing what every fan out there wanted SAF to do ie take risks and bring some real quality to the side. I have only 2 concerns ie whether Moyes is targeting unrealistic targets (Kroos deal does sound alot like Fabregas one) + whether he's the right man to conduct such job. However I wont criticize him from strengthening the side. This squad screams for quality
We spent 57m euros in 2011-2012 and 76m euros in 2012-2013.