Is our plan just to throw money at everything?

[Plugsy]

The worry is like Mata and Fellaini, two massive (at least in terms of fee) signings and they arrive and it's like you're giving a Big Brother contestant long division, the manager has had no clue what to do with either as if he wasn't expecting them to show up.

It's a big, expensive gamble giving Moyes any money to spend at all.

 

[stevoc]

We've spent £65m out of our pockets since smug Scot has taken over. He'll easily get another £65m and more in the Summer which will take his spending beyond £100m easily. That's a huge outlay by anyone's standards.

Well of course it would be a huge outlay but over 3 windows, but in my post i meant i just can't see us spending £150-200 million in one window, i mean has any team ever spent that much?

I think Real the summer they bought kaka and ronaldo spent something like £150m breaking the world record twice, we just aren't going to be dropping that type of coin.

My bet is we could spend £60-80 million gross while looking to recoup some of that with player sales.

 

[Sarni]

Well of course it would be a huge outlay but over 3 windows, but in my post i meant i just can't see us spending £150-200 million in one window, i mean has any team ever spent that much?

I think Real the summer they bought kaka and ronaldo spent something like £150m breaking the world record twice, we just aren't going to be dropping that type of coin.

My bet is we could spend £60-80 million gross while looking to recoup some of that with player sales.

We'll buy two or three players in the Summer, IMO. None of them will be world class but all will be expensive - Carvalho for £25m, Shaw for £28m and some random winger/midfielder for £30m seems like a decent bet. We won't improve much if at all, we can forget about top level midfielders and defenders - the likes of Reus, Hummels etc. won't come here.

 

[Plugsy]

Well of course it would be a huge outlay but over 3 windows, but in my post i meant i just can't see us spending £150-200 million in one window, i mean has any team ever spent that much?

I think Real the summer they bought kaka and ronaldo spent something like £150m breaking the world record twice, we just aren't going to be dropping that type of coin.

My bet is we could spend £60-80 million gross while looking to recoup some of that with player sales.

Our gross average over the last 3 years has been about £62m. I'd expect this summer to be somewhat higher than that by a significant margin.

 

[Lawman]

No way Kroos is going for £40m, he has one year left on his contract. I don't think there's any doubt that we needed to open the chequebook up, the problem is that Moyes has spent £65m very poorly.

We've spent £27m on Fellaini who doesn't even improve us and we're still talking about spending £70m+ to improve our CM. We've bought Mata who Moyes has no conviction to play in his best position unless Rooney/RVP are unavailable, and given we had Kagawa if Moyes actually wanted to go down the route of playing a proper playmaker, that £40m odd would have strengthened the team so much more.

We don't need to be spending £30m on Shaw. We just need a LB who's competent defensively and comfortable going forward. We just need a stop gap there. Coentrao would be half the price.

If we are going to splash the cash again, target CM and make sure we get the right quality of the players who actually improve us. We're stacked in CM with Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley, Fellaini and Jones/Giggs. I'd bugger off Fellaini, try and get £15m for him and use that towards buying 2 CMs. Then try and get in a left back on the cheap (ish). We can cope elsewhere in the team. Obviously Moyes isn't going to get rid of Afroman though.

Moyes has bought Mata and Fellaini we will see if they are poor signings in the next season or so. But think you may be jumping the gun. Mata is excellent and Fellaini is underrated here and been 2 of the top players in recent times in the league. We'll see how the get on next season in a team that is more a Moyes team.

 

[PlayerOne]

I honestly have no problem with the club spending whatever it takes this summer. Spending wise we have fallen behind other top teams for a while now, so we're not only playing catch up, we also have to get ahead. We either stick with our 'values' and stay behind those teams or we do what it takes.

Once we get a great first team then we can cut down on the spending and bring unknown/young players when they have less pressure on them and it won't harm the team if they fail because we would still have a great team.

 

[SiRed]

Yea or basically somebody's taking into account that we're on the verge of losing 2 CBs in Vidić who's already gone and Rio, Evra at the LB where our second-choice-fullback is Büttner, we've got no cover for the RB unless we play Smalling and Jones there. Jones, Evans, Smalling, basically all the time atleast one of them is injured, if we promote Keane, that leaves us with 3 CBs between PL, CoC, FA and maybe EL. And that's just defence.

Then you've got central midfield where we've been lacking for years, Fletcher and Carrick are both aging, Anderson hopefully is gone, Cleverley is at best a squad player and then there's Fellaini, who's already entitled a flop by many. Our three wingers of Nani, Young and Valencia have been rubbish for last two years and it doesn't seem like anything will change in that department, then there's Januzaj, Mata, Kagawa ( out of which only Januzaj can be called a 'semi-winger' or something, the latter two won't give us pace that we need from the wings ) and possibly Danny, who I hope will be more of a #9 than a winger.

Incompetent manager is one thing, our squad aging, seriously lacking in certain positions for years, is another one. It's not all down to Moyes and staff being shite.

Edit: and no, 'one or two signings' won't cut it unless you want us to bleed out between Europe ( when we finally get there ) and league.

Best post ive read in here for a while.

People forget the bolded part.

Our team has been in need of investment for a long time.
We won the league last season and was dangerously close to winning it the season before but how many of us were genuinley happy with the squad and the levels of entertainment in our football?
I am under no illusions that the 2 league titles we won since Ronaldo left in 09 were more to do with SAF than the team.

If we had anyone other than Fergie in charge for those 2 seasons, i firmly believe we would be nowhere near winning the league.

The Ronaldo money has still not been spent. Was it being saved with this situation in mind? Makes you wonder why Fergie didnt try and rebuild this team sooner. Maybe he was saving the money knowing it can be used by his successor to rebuild a team he knew was on the decline!

 

[Plugsy]

Moyes has bought Mata and Fellaini we will see if they are poor signings in the next season or so. But think you may be jumping the gun. Mata is excellent and Fellaini is underrated here and been 2 of the top players in recent times in the league. We'll see how the get on next season in a team that is more a Moyes team.

Individually they aren't poor but I'm still not convinced he has a fecking clue what to do with either. Surely if you pay out fees of near £30m and £40m you at least expect to have a clear idea of what you want the players to be. Had he said "you're my CM" and "you're the number 10" to Fellaini and Mata respectively then at least he'd be able to say he had a plan. But he hasn't and doesn't

Fellaini changes from defensive holding player to someone expected to support the strikers, that's when he plays at all, and Mata has probably played in his preferred position once since he joined. It isn't that either are poor players but why they were bought in the first place if the manager had no real clear use for them. It's a lot of money to spend on players you're going to treat like a box of old tools and just dump anywhere for the sake of it.

 

[SirFergie]

Money needed to spent this summer regardless. The question is whether the right man is spending it on the right players.

 

[Lawman]

We don't need an overhaul and no-one was saying that at the start of the season. Get 2 CMs and a LB and we're back in business. That is what was obviously what we needed, and even Moyes saw that with his targets. Somehow though, he's taken that £65m and gone from Coentrao/Baines/Herrera/Fabregas/Thiago to Fellaini and Mata who aren't what we need, and cost £65m.

The squad isn't particularly lacking aside from CM and LB (although the sketchy form of the wingers is a problem). A lot of the problems we've had are not personnel related but management related.



The whole Kroos thing is just about money isn't it? I've heard Bayern say that they're not selling him this summer definitely, so I can imagine that sooner or later they'll just offer whatever contract he wants. It's not like an RVP/Young/Nasri situation where they were also motivated by trophies. But yeah, it would take crazy money for them to even consider a bid.

I think we do need an overhaul as we need to get rid of a lot of deadwood with the likes of Anderson Young Butner Cleverly Nani IMO needing moved out added to Giggs Rio Evra Vidic all probably leaving. So yes IMO we need an overhaul of the squad.

 

[Lawman]

Individually they aren't poor but I'm still not convinced he has a fecking clue what to do with either. Surely if you pay out fees of near £30m and £40m you at least expect to have a clear idea of what you want the players to be. Had he said "you're my CM" and "you're the number 10" to Fellaini and Mata respectively then at least he'd be able to say he had a plan. But he hasn't and doesn't

Fellaini changes from defensive holding player to someone expected to support the strikers, that's when he plays at all, and Mata has probably played in his preferred position once since he joined. It isn't that either are poor players but why they were bought in the first place if the manager had no real clear use for them. It's a lot of money to spend on players you're going to treat like a box of old tools and just dump anywhere for the sake of it.

Agree but now he has a chance to buy and sell I'd like to think he'd move mata and Fellaini into their proper positions. Ill wait with baited breath.

 

[Eugenius]

Moyes has bought Mata and Fellaini we will see if they are poor signings in the next season or so. But think you may be jumping the gun. Mata is excellent and Fellaini is underrated here and been 2 of the top players in recent times in the league. We'll see how the get on next season in a team that is more a Moyes team.

No doubt Mata is an excellent footballer, a world class player. But we're not going to see the best of him if Moyes continues to put him on the right wing, as he has in literally every game in which Rooney and RVP have been available. Even if Moyes decided that a 4-2-3-1 system was best for us and had the conviction to move Rooney out of the no.10 role, given that we have Kagawa there, I don't see why he's spent £40m on a playmaker. It wasn't exactly a priority, but I don't doubt Mata's ability.

Let's be honest that Fellaini is an awful signing. I was in the camp of being hopeful that he would prove people wrong (good touch for a big man etc) but he's worse technically than I thought and he's also a lazy fecker. He might/should improve next season but it says it all if we're still sniffing around the likes of Carvalho and also Kroos. He cost £27.5m and is at best a squad player.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

To repair the structural issues in the squad is going to take big money. Even bigger money now when everyone knows the money is there and we are in desperate need of players on certain positions.

I say it quite often, but the midfield and centre of defence that Sir Alex left behind was not sufficient to challenge. Aging, injuries and too much responsibility on certain players has finally shown when the manager of all managers retired. As long as the excess money is actually invested in the right areas and we're not just looking to hoover up any kind of world-class talent because it's world class talent, then throwing money that should've been spent a long time ago is fine.

The gap between the time gap Anderson and Fellaini is actually ridiculous, not to mention that we haven't brought in someone who has performed consistently in the centre since Michael Carrick which again is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Eugenius]

I think we do need an overhaul as we need to get rid of a lot of deadwood with the likes of Anderson Young Butner Cleverly Nani IMO needing moved out added to Giggs Rio Evra Vidic all probably leaving. So yes IMO we need an overhaul of the squad.

Well naturally the squad is bloated and we need to reduce the wage bill and accommodate some new signings. I think we need 3-4 signings (CM x2, LB and a winger/versatile attacker). I wouldn't constitute that an overhaul, it's not as drastic as what Spurs did over the summer, for example.

I think the squad is a lot better than it looks, mainly because of terrible tactics, injuries and mismanagement. 2/3 additions to the first XI IMO are all we need to be competitive again, not 4-6. I have faith that there is a quality partnership between Evans, Smalling and Jones somewhere in there, if they actually are allowed to settle. Similarly, I think Carrick can regain his form from last season too.

We should be offloading Anderson definitely, Vidic is going, Evra is seemingly gone too and Giggs will likely retire. No need to shift out the likes of Cleverley, Young and Buttner unless they're preventing us from brining in new players. They're all competent squad players but shouldn't be near our first XI. Nani is a quality player, he should be given more chances IMO (see Valencia over the last two years).

But in summary, I don't think we need more than 4 in, 4/5 out. Any more would be counter productive to cohesion IMO.

 

[Lawman]

To repair the structural issues in the squad is going to take big money. Even bigger money now when everyone knows the money is there and we are in desperate need of players on certain positions.

I say it quite often, but the midfield and centre of defence that Sir Alex left behind was not sufficient to challenge. Aging, injuries and too much responsibility on certain players has finally shown when the manager of all managers retired. As long as the excess money is actually invested in the right areas and we're not just looking to hoover up any kind of world-class talent because it's world class talent, then throwing money that should've been spent a long time ago is fine.

The gap between the time gap Anderson and Fellaini is actually ridiculous, not to mention that we haven't brought in someone who has performed consistently in the centre since Michael Carrick which again is absolutely ridiculous.

Good post and a lot of sense

 

[Revan]

To repair the structural issues in the squad is going to take big money. Even bigger money now when everyone knows the money is there and we are in desperate need of players on certain positions.

I say it quite often, but the midfield and centre of defence that Sir Alex left behind was not sufficient to challenge. Aging, injuries and too much responsibility on certain players has finally shown when the manager of all managers retired. As long as the excess money is actually invested in the right areas and we're not just looking to hoover up any kind of world-class talent because it's world class talent, then throwing money that should've been spent a long time ago is fine.

The gap between the time gap Anderson and Fellaini is actually ridiculous, not to mention that we haven't brought in someone who has performed consistently in the centre since Michael Carrick which again is absolutely ridiculous.

To challenge for what? All the trophies or for the last spot which sends to UCL? We can argue about a title challenge, but there is no way that someone can say with a straight face that we don't have a better squad than Everton who are in the fourth place.

Also, CB was left in a very good stage. 2 experienced players who are past it but can still offer something, a very good defender who is at a good age, and 2 very good young prospects. You couldn't have asked for more. The CM on the other side was ridiculus for a team of our status, with only a midfielder being capable to play in a top team. Yet, after 30m spend there, we have again the same midfielder who is apable of playing in a top team (though a year older).

 

[Lawman]

Well naturally the squad is bloated and we need to reduce the wage bill and accommodate some new signings. I think we need 3-4 signings (CM x2, LB and a winger/versatile attacker). I wouldn't constitute that an overhaul, it's not as drastic as what Spurs did over the summer, for example.

I think the squad is a lot better than it looks, mainly because of terrible tactics, injuries and mismanagement. 2/3 additions to the first XI IMO are all we need to be competitive again, not 4-6. I have faith that there is a quality partnership between Evans, Smalling and Jones somewhere in there, if they actually are allowed to settle. Similarly, I think Carrick can regain his form from last season too.

We should be offloading Anderson definitely, Vidic is going, Evra is seemingly gone too and Giggs will likely retire. No need to shift out the likes of Cleverley, Young and Buttner unless they're preventing us from brining in new players. They're all competent squad players but shouldn't be near our first XI. Nani is a quality player, he should be given more chances IMO (see Valencia over the last two years).

But in summary, I don't think we need more than 4 in, 4/5 out. Any more would be counter productive to cohesion IMO.[/QUOTE

So your saying 4 is ok? So we only disagree about Young Nani Butner and Cleverly going? I'd like to shift all 4 and get possibly 2 in to replace them. And you want Nani (who will be on his 7th-8th season here more of a chance? Personally I'd be happier seeing Zaha given more of a chance or Powell instead of Cleverly.

 

[JustAFan]

The worry is like Mata and Fellaini, two massive (at least in terms of fee) signings and they arrive and it's like you're giving a Big Brother contestant long division, the manager has had no clue what to do with either as if he wasn't expecting them to show up.

It's a big, expensive gamble giving Moyes any money to spend at all.

Yeah don't let him spend anything at all, that will help the club.

If the clubs plan is for him to be here next season then it only makes sense to give him money to try and improve the team. And top players do not come cheap.

If the clubs plan is to fire Moyes in the offseason and have a new manager, then it only makes sense to give the new manager money to try and improve the team. Top players do not come cheap.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

To challenge for what? All the trophies or for the last spot which sends to UCL? We can argue about a title challenge, but there is no way that someone can say with a straight face that we don't have a better squad than Everton who are in the fourth place.

Also, CB was left in a very good stage. 2 experienced players who are past it but can still offer something, a very good defender who is at a good age, and 2 very good young prospects. You couldn't have asked for more. The CM on the other side was ridiculus for a team of our status, with only a midfielder being capable to play in a top team. Yet, after 30m spend there, we have again the same midfielder who is apable of playing in a top team (though a year older).

With Moyes - 4th.

I disagree about CB.

• Smalling hadn't played more than 19 league games until this season (now on 22)
• Phil Jones has spent a fair amount of time not actually playing as a centre-back and is another one who seems to get injuries quite often.
• Jonny Evans has played 27 games in a season in the league (in the 11-12 season) but he's another who is often injured as his appearance record suggests
• Rio can do a job from time-to-time but Dave clearly doesn't fancy him and he's another who can suffer from constant niggly injuries
• Vidic hasn't been the same since Basel 2011. His time is definitely up.
• We haven't got a proper CB pairing and THAT is the issue. Not necessarily the individuals who are all generally capable.
• Since 07-08 Sylvain Distin's lowest PL apps per season is 27 - that's up there with our highest.
• Jagielka had the major injury in the 09-10 season but other than that he's comfortably playing in at least 30 games a season (in the league) for Everton.

It's not about the better squad, it's about consistency.

 

[stevoc]

Our gross average over the last 3 years has been about £62m. I'd expect this summer to be somewhat higher than that by a significant margin.

Well as i said i can see us spending more than we usually do, but i just don't see us spending the crazy money some seem to think we will.

 

[Massive Spanner]

My problem isn't spending the money, it's who we're giving the money to to spend.

 

[Revan]

With Moyes - 4th.

THen that is because of Moyes, not because of the team. If Everton can challenge for the fourth position, we should be able too. So, why not just cut th losses on the first place rather than finding creative ways ($$) to mask the problem and continue the farce for another year or two?!

 

[redtilldead123]

While the club is doing well (and because of success it can can benefit from a massive fan base) then Utd can afford to have the occasional expensive flop and bounce back.

The problems might come when the fans none of us here probably have much time for - the foreign ones that support the biggest team but are happy to switch allegiance if they think the ship is sinking - stop buying the shirts

 

[NotoriousISSY]

THen that is because of Moyes, not because of the team. If Everton can challenge for the fourth position, we should be able too. So, why not just cut th losses on the first place rather than finding creative ways ($$) to mask the problem and continue the farce for another year or two?!

That doesn't mean there aren't deficiencies in the team.

Spending doesn't mask anything. Whoever manages us needs to have better players - no one will ever do what Sir Alex did and squeeze so much out of the current crop we have,

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I dont care how much we spend. The money doesnt come out of my pockets. The finances are the Glazer's problem and they knew what costs were likely to be involved when they bought the club. I just want the best squad possible to get into the UCL and win trophies again. It may sound selfish but that's how it should be from a fans perspective in my opinion.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

We've sat on our hands and watched our rivals bring in quality player after quality player, we're due some serious spending.

 

[Sunny Jim]

The worry is like Mata and Fellaini, two massive (at least in terms of fee) signings and they arrive and it's like you're giving a Big Brother contestant long division, the manager has had no clue what to do with either as if he wasn't expecting them to show up.

It's a big, expensive gamble giving Moyes any money to spend at all.

i don't want to sound dull but I have been saying this for ages. The very reason for which we want to throw money is that everybody else knows that we desperately need quality in CM, LB etc...a few years of under investment weakened our barraging position significantly.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Moyes has bought Mata and Fellaini we will see if they are poor signings in the next season or so. But think you may be jumping the gun. Mata is excellent and Fellaini is underrated here and been 2 of the top players in recent times in the league. We'll see how the get on next season in a team that is more a Moyes team.

you made my day

 

[Moriarty]

We've sat on our hands and watched our rivals bring in quality player after quality player, we're due some serious spending.

The Fabregas rumour has resurfaced I see. I'm sure he's just dying for a move to United so he can play under Moyes.

 

[SolidState]

The Fabregas rumour has resurfaced I see. I'm sure he's just dying for a move to United so he can play under Moyes.

I saw this too......Sigh, it is technically possible. Neymar has come into form and the Kroos deal seems off. Fabregas would be an insane signing, 50m reportedly.

 

[SolidState]

Sorry just wanted to see this in writing so forgive me.

De Gea
Rafeal-Jones-Smalling-Shaw
Fabregas-William
Januzaj-Mata-Reus
Rooney
​

Good god.

 

[Ixion]

Back in January Moyes said something along the lines of "Ultimately as manager I take responsibility (of our season/success) and I will fix it by buying better players". So yes I think the plan is to just throw money at our problems.

 

[Rednotdead]

Back in January Moyes said something along the lines of "Ultimately as manager I take responsibility (of our season/success) and I will fix it by buying better players". So yes I think the plan is to just throw money at our problems.

Buying better players isn't necessarily throwing money at a problem. Every club everywhere buys players because they think the player is better than what they have.

 

[Ramshock]

It has to be asked though how much was this the Glazers not wanting to spend and how much was it Fergie's ego? I think its undoubtedly linked to our poor season how much the club relied on SAF. He is undoubtedly the best manager ever but you have to wonder what we would have accomplished with the endless list of great players he wouldnt stump up for. It has to be considered that Fergie left the cupboards half empty at best

 

[Shane88]

We can spend all the money we like, doesn't change the fact there's going to someone clueless telling these big money players how to play and that doesn't bode well.

Giving Moyes this kind of budget is absolutely mental. The man who, in a matter of months, turned League Champions into a club holding on to Spurs coat-tails and who might not even qualify for the Europa League. Whether that is beneficial or not is beside the point. It's a pathetic position to be in.

 

[Moriarty]

I saw this too......Sigh, it is technically possible. Neymar has come into form and the Kroos deal seems off. Fabregas would be an insane signing, 50m reportedly.

Can't see it happening myself, unless Barca tell Fabregas he can go. Even then, given this season's shambles, I doubt we'd be on top of Fabregas's list of preferred destinations.

 

[rotherham_red]

The frustrating thing is that we don't need to spend obscene amounts this summer.

The squad as it stands with some competent man management will easily place us in the top 4. Add a couple of signings in key position and it easily turns into a realistic title challenge.

We're only looking to spend stupid amounts to paper over the obvious shortcomings of a manager and coaching staff who are out of their depth.

^^ This

 

[Moriarty]

It has to be asked though how much was this the Glazers not wanting to spend and how much was it Fergie's ego? I think its undoubtedly linked to our poor season how much the club relied on SAF. He is undoubtedly the best manager ever but you have to wonder what we would have accomplished with the endless list of great players he wouldnt stump up for. It has to be considered that Fergie left the cupboards half empty at best

Been saying this for a while. Personally, I think it's down to the Glazers not being willing to spend. All that "no value in the market" stuff was code for
"they won't give me any money." Gill often said that money was available, yet when it came down to it, it wasn't. I still wonder about the Hazard deal and if we really did pull out because we didn't want to pay the agent. Also our reluctance to join that group (I forget what it's called) which brings together clubs and agents to the mutual benefit of all - well, that's the plan at any rate. Fact is, agents are the people who grease the wheels of the football industry. You have to deal with them if you want the best no matter how distasteful it might be for clubs involved.

 

[bishblaize]

Been saying this for a while. Personally, I think it's down to the Glazers not being willing to spend. All that "no value in the market" stuff was code for "they won't give me any money." Gill often said that money was available, yet when it came down to it, it wasn't.

Well it did feel that way at times. But on the other hand - 5 titles in 7 years. You really can't ignore that, because it kind of suggests its the other way, that Fergie was right and he had what he needed.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Buying better players isn't necessarily throwing money at a problem. Every club everywhere buys players because they think the player is better than what they have.

That is when it is only a few players that change every season gradually over time. Blowing 100m/200m or whatever in a single window is very much throwing money at a problem.

That being said, if the players are of the quality of Shaw, Kroos, Carvalho, etc, then I really could not care less. As long as we have genuine quality players in return for the money we spend, surely it will only benefit us in the long run. So, I really do not have a problem with throwing money at this problem.