In 10-20 years people will only remember who was the actual winner.
Is Jose Mourinho still our best manager post Fergie?
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I don't see how this is even up for debate. He won us a handful of trophies with a limited squad. Yes they weren't prestigious prizes but his tenure still had something tangible to show for it. All of our managers post Fergie have played tumescent football.
Trophy Room > Wikipedia. Those who win are always remembered and no one can take that from them.
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Exactly. In 2011 Sir Alex Ferguson said winning trophies is key to keeping your job as manager. "You can fulfil all your ideas and philosophies about how a team is run and how they play. But I judge my success by trophies."
Jose record with United was one of significant promise followed by a hugely negative period.
But, like Van Gaal and Moyes, it is in the past.
The real question is whether Ole represents the future.
Football is not a place for sentiments.
It is a results based business.
And over his time here as a manager, results have been nothing like good enough.
1st-7th moyes
7-4-5 LvG
5-6-2-6 Jose
6-3-2-? Ole
So, no.
7-4-5 LvG
5-6-2-6 Jose
6-3-2-? Ole
So, no.
You conveniently left out silverware. And Ole is currently 6th.
I don’t know where this “limited squad” myth has come from. He spent over £400m and that’s not even including Zlatan or Sanchez.
If the squad was limited, it’s because he was incredibly shit with the money he spent. And based on that I don’t know how anyone can determine his tenure to be successful, EL or not.
The only good thing about Jose’s time was his trophy count, nothing else. Had he come in instead of Moyes after SAF he would have been a lot more successful.
Just fleshing that out for you. If you add on transfer spend it would also not look as good for Ole.
From the man himself, who's never missed a chance to big himself up (see repeated comments about that 2nd place finish in 2018 being one of his greatest accomplishments). And his strangely cult-like fanbase laps it up.
We were expected to challenge for the title going into both his full seasons. He spent a lot of money, largely on good players (Ibrahimovic, Bailly, Mkhitaryan and Pogba in his first summer, Matic, Lindelof and Lukaku in his second) - it was not a limited squad at all.
That has nothing to do with what people remember 10-20 years from now. And it's an incredibly reductive way of looking at sports history. Manchester United's history isn't reduced to the accomplishments of SAF, Busby, and that bloke with the bowl hat in the 1900s
SAF built an actual global sport institution through accomplishments and became universal reference point when it comes to how we look on managers in a big clubs.
Current football standards also came from his accomplishments and will be look upon longer than this club exists as he's rightly considered best manager of all time. What comes with that he will be remembered longer than centuries.
From this perspective Mourinho actually achieving European trophy is definitely a tiny trace in history post SAF, but it's actually a visible one and one which managers after him did not achieved just yet. As far as I remember trophies were always perfect documentation of what one can achieve positive with a squad, especially for first English club that won European Cup.
Fair post, hadn’t considered some of the points
This.
Mourinho saying something that makes him look better in retrospective? Yeah, that never happened. The sources for this is Daily Mail & Metro by the way:
Jose Mourinho 'never wanted Fred' at Manchester United and only accepted the £52m midfielder out of fear the club would not sign anyone else.
You’ve got to admire Mourinho. One thing he does best is controlling the narrative, it’s uncanny how many of the arguments used there are his arguments that he either said/planted when he was here (directly or through the press via Castles & the likes) and after he has gone.
Wish this thread would die a death. This guy was toxic and set us back years. He's one of the reasons Ole has lasted as long as he has in the job, such was the mess he left us in.
Mourinho
LVG
Ole
Moyes
In that order.
LVG
Ole
Moyes
In that order.
Mourinho can win the EL and it's all its a Mickey Mouse Cup we should be in the CL. Ole can lose the EL Final and he's just one penalty kick away from his first trophy!
Mourinho can win 3 Semi-Finals out of 3, standard we're Manchester United. Ole can lose 4 in a row and he's just unlucky.
Mourinho can finish 2nd on 80+ points for the first time in 4 years and he gets stick for not winning it with the amount he's spent. Ole can finish 2nd on 74 points spending more than Mourinho, playing in front of empty stadiums, and he's brought United back from despair.
Oh yeah and Ole can keep using Mourinho's midfield for 3 years and get credit for his amazing transfer business.
The football we're seeing right now is also as dire as anything under Mourinho.
Mourinho can win 3 Semi-Finals out of 3, standard we're Manchester United. Ole can lose 4 in a row and he's just unlucky.
Mourinho can finish 2nd on 80+ points for the first time in 4 years and he gets stick for not winning it with the amount he's spent. Ole can finish 2nd on 74 points spending more than Mourinho, playing in front of empty stadiums, and he's brought United back from despair.
Oh yeah and Ole can keep using Mourinho's midfield for 3 years and get credit for his amazing transfer business.
The football we're seeing right now is also as dire as anything under Mourinho.
There's only really one argument which is all the football is inconsistent and generally cautious and so you have to revert to trophies. We play the same formation, the same limited double pivot, we still struggle against low block teams, we are more direct but essentially we traded + 5 goals for conceding +16 more goals and winning less games in the PL...he got through 2 CL groups out of 2 and won an EL final in the other season. Ole got knocked out of 1/1 Cl group and lost the EL final, he'd also hardly started this CL campaign well either. I absolutely hate Mou but point out to me what I just wrote which is not factual.
Mou's narrative is that he got 2nd with a terrible team and that's a great achievement & that he wasn't backed, no one here buys that. In the same way no one thinks it's an achievement that we finished 2nd last year when we were 12 points off 1st.
All managers, so far, have not been good enough and none of them have played 'attacking' football therefore what else can you do but look at their trophies?
No
that has to be Ole
that has to be Ole
Yep.
Can you honestly remember who won the Europa League or EFL Cup a decade ago?
Let’s be honest, they’ve each been awful
Moyes - never up to the job
LVG - past his prime by the time he got to us
Mou - past his prime by the time he got to us
Ole - never up to the job
Moyes - never up to the job
LVG - past his prime by the time he got to us
Mou - past his prime by the time he got to us
Ole - never up to the job
If Mourinho had not poisoned the well and kept going, maybe.
The reality is though, a couple of cups is nothing compared to the detriment of everything else he brought to the club in the end. Solskjaer will leave this club without a cup, with question marks over his head, and, in my opinion, being completely out of his depth, but long term the squad is in a much much better place in terms of personel and squad harmony for now and future success than it was when Mourinho had his hands all over it, which, in the post Fergie era, is a much bigger success for me.
The reality is though, a couple of cups is nothing compared to the detriment of everything else he brought to the club in the end. Solskjaer will leave this club without a cup, with question marks over his head, and, in my opinion, being completely out of his depth, but long term the squad is in a much much better place in terms of personel and squad harmony for now and future success than it was when Mourinho had his hands all over it, which, in the post Fergie era, is a much bigger success for me.
To be fair, he left us sixth in the table. Same exact position that Ole finished the season, and the same position we are right now in the table. Although, he also managed to qualify from UCL group stage, something that Ole didn’t manage last year and is struggling this year.
Our EL path was easy, I guess. It was easy last year too, it typically is. That’s what Europa League is.
He should have been thanked and sacked at the end of his second season, I said so back then. And when he got sacked, the team was going nowhere, so it was the absolutely right (albeit delayed) decision.
Same for Ole who should have never become permanent (although I wanted him to be), should have been sacked at the end of his first season, probably survive his sesond, but definitely be sacked last season either when he failed to pass in that UCL group, or at the end of last season. Now it has reached Mourinho’s stage of why on Earth he is still manager.
Exactly this. Couldn't care less who is the best out of the feck up four.
People have. a short memory..We forgot the following for Mourinho
Bought Pogba for 90M
bought lukaku for 80M
bought Bailey
Bought Lindelof
football heritage and Sevilla masterclass
bought Mikhi
exchanged mikhi
brought Sanchez maybe the worst transfer ever .
Bought Matic when we has almost done
Wouldn't allow Martial to see his newborn during pre season
If Ole wasn't an ex player I'm sure your list would look quite different. He certainly isn't the best based on his success. Jose both matched his best finish, achieving more points while doing so, and won trophies on top of it.
Depends on parameters
Didn't our u21 look terrible or get relegated ? Now it's flourishing or we have a good amount of prospects (even if they get sold)?
Trophies there's only one winner. But then you have league positions and the trajectory?
And also the look and potential of the squad that's been left behind
If ole gets sacked now, I think there's no doubt that the next manager will have the best squad followed by what Moyes had, then Jose, followed by ole, then lvg.
In terms of results and enjoyment from games, I think I've enjoyed going to old Trafford the most under Ole, followed by Jose first season, then lvg first season. Lvg second season and Jose other seasons were boring AF...
Again depends how you judge it as a fan or supporter
Didn't our u21 look terrible or get relegated ? Now it's flourishing or we have a good amount of prospects (even if they get sold)?
Trophies there's only one winner. But then you have league positions and the trajectory?
And also the look and potential of the squad that's been left behind
If ole gets sacked now, I think there's no doubt that the next manager will have the best squad followed by what Moyes had, then Jose, followed by ole, then lvg.
In terms of results and enjoyment from games, I think I've enjoyed going to old Trafford the most under Ole, followed by Jose first season, then lvg first season. Lvg second season and Jose other seasons were boring AF...
Again depends how you judge it as a fan or supporter
People have. a short memory..We forgot the following for Mourinho
Bought Pogba for 90M
bought lukaku for 80M
bought Bailey
Bought Lindelof
football heritage and Sevilla masterclass
bought Mikhi
exchanged mikhi
brought Sanchez maybe the worst transfer ever .
Bought Matic when we has almost done
Wouldn't allow Martial to see his newborn during pre season
This
Hell no, he was terrible.
How does any of that change what I said?
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