Is Casemiro Cooked?

Is Casemiro a washed up write off?

  • Yes - sell as soon as a suitable offer comes in

    Votes: 281 55.5%

  • No - in a proper system he will deliver top class defensive midfield performances

    Votes: 36 7.1%

  • Unsure - I think he’s diminishing, but can still do a good job in a functional setup

    Votes: 147 29.1%

  • Sort out as much of the team as possible this window first then sell if a replacement is found

    Votes: 42 8.3%
  • Total voters
    506
  • Poll closed .
He's cooked and also let down by EtH's suicidal tactics.

In his first season and sometimes since he had a real knack of pinging a ball first time behind the defence into space for one of our attackers to run onto but now every time he does it, it just looks really wasteful and amateur. Meanwhile his legs have completely gone at top level.

I wish the Saudis had come in for him but alas, it wasn't to be. Perhaps he can still do it in the Europa/League Cup in a midfield three but as we'll never see a midfield three there's no point.
 
Idxomer said:
The tactics have nothing to do with him making that lazy pass before the first goal. His performance yesterday was on him.

Casemiro.jpg
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He has zero passing options other than give it back ot any of the CBs, which he honestly should have done here. Everyone is running away from the ball, the two midfieders are hiding behind Liverpools players, Dalot is way too high. You could argue that Mazraoui relatively free, but by Diaz got enough speed to cut the pass.

The team shape is absolutely awful.

Casemiro's in on the decline and was shit against Liverpool but anyone thinking that this got nothing with Ten Hag's set-ups and how they leave the midfielders utterly exposed, should think again. He reverted back to his basketball tactics as soon as his job was safe again. There's literally none of your players in his system that looks remotely good.
 
That_Bloke said:
He has zero passing options other than give it back ot any of the CBs, which he honestly should have done here. Everyone is running away from the ball, the two midfieders are hiding behind Liverpools players, Dalot is way too high. You could argue that Mazraoui relatively free, but by Diaz got enough speed to cut the pass.

The team shape is absolutely awful.

Casemiro's in on the decline and was shit against Liverpool but anyone thinking that this got nothing with Ten Hag's set-ups and how they leave the midfielders utterly exposed, should think again. He reverted back to his basketball tactics as soon as his job was safe again. There's literally none of your players in his system that looks remotely good.
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I’m not defending EtH’s tactics here but how do you see that pic and say he has no passing options except backwards? There’s the easier and more obvious ball out to the right back & then the other pass who puts us into a good position is floating one out wide and over to either the left back or Rashford out wide left. Then liverpools press is beaten and they’re retreating. I’d expect someone of Casemiro’s calibre to play that pass.
 
That_Bloke said:
He has zero passing options other than give it back ot any of the CBs, which he honestly should have done here. Everyone is running away from the ball, the two midfieders are hiding behind Liverpools players, Dalot is way too high. You could argue that Mazraoui relatively free, but by Diaz got enough speed to cut the pass.

The team shape is absolutely awful.

Casemiro's in on the decline and was shit against Liverpool but anyone thinking that this got nothing with Ten Hag's set-ups and how they leave the midfielders utterly exposed, should think again. He reverted back to his basketball tactics as soon as his job was safe again. There's literally none of your players in his system that looks remotely good.
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Unfair to judge a freeze frame, but he’s got 4 choices there.

Wide right, clip it left, hit it over the top, or wide left. All have a higher probability than the one he takes.

It was just a bad choice. This coming from someone that thinks he’s got something to offer still.
 
Aretak said:
This is the second season in a row that's failed to materialise. A lot of people seem to have banished the fact that he was shite in the second half of his debut season from their memory, but I certainly still remember the excuses about him being "tired" and how it wasn't his fault because the entire team was struggling and that he'd be back with a vengeance after the summer break. Then last season happened. He's been awful for a solid 18 months. At some point you have to accept that this is just his level now, and that signing a 30 year old Real Madrid cast-off on astronomical wages has been a disaster.
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Regarding that first season, he was the fifth most dribbled-past player in the PL (50 times). Also, keep in mind, that the players ranked 1-4 played between 700–1000 more minutes than Casemiro. So, on average, he was the most "dribbled-past" player in the PL. And that was his good season when no one was moaning about the tactics yet. Last season, he was dribbled-past 52 times playing - give or take a few - the same minutes. He's been rather consistent during his United career... Consistently bad, that is.

You can make (some) excuses for (someone like) Alexis Mac Allister, who topped that particular start last season (63 times). Much younger and inexperienced at this level of football, his team in rebuilding mode with plenty of hiccups in its performances etc. Above all, being asked to perform a demanding role he's not exactly familiar with. Casemiro can only claim the "playing in a bad team" excuse. And not so much for ETH's first season because, after the shocking start to our 22-23 campaign, we went back to "known and familiar" tactics for the most part. Is the role of the holding midfielder in ETH's head too demanding even for the absolute best? Yes, it is. But the distance, from this admission to the shitshow he's been serving up week after week, is too vast. United paid a premium fee and are paying premium wages, too, and what we get in return are bad decision-making, awful reading of the game and mistakes galore.

Here's another interesting bit about the "dribbled past" stat and midfield options. You will struggle to find two "top-half of the table" sides with two midfielders (defensive or attacking) who got dribbled 50+ times. During the previous four seasons, United were one. Before Casemiro, in the defensive midfielder role, it was Fred. I believe most of the Caf can guess who their (constant) partner in crime is. But, yeah, all we need is to switch to 433.
 
Ish said:
I’m not defending EtH’s tactics here but how do you see that pic and say he has no passing options except backwards? There’s the easier and more obvious ball out to the right back & then the other pass who puts us into a good position is floating one out wide and over to either the left back or Rashford out wide left. Then liverpools press is beaten and they’re retreating. Any professional footballer should be able to play that floated pass out wide, IMO.
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I don't see the passing option to Mazraoui as a safe one, Diaz is way too close to my liking, but that's just me. Any pass to the left, even less. Unless hoof and pray is the way to go. I'm amazed to see how far from each other players are and how high the FBs are.

In two minutes, Arne Slot perfectly explained Ten Hag's style weaknesses and how Liverpool methodically dismantled his system. And that's a manager who got his team yesterday, and signed one outfield player.

That not to excuse Casemiro's performance, he was simply awful,

But people putting it all on him and saying he's cooked, can't see the wood for the trees. He was (rightly) hooked at half-time and you were still terrible. It should've been 5 or 6-0.

Ugarte better be Superman because the amount of hope put on him to save the midfield is unreal and completely unreasonable.
 
DavelinaJolie said:
I'm not defender of Ten Hag, but I very much doubt his instructions to Casemiro pre-game include making reckless slide tackles and picking up bookings.
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Part of that reckless play from Casemiro is the huge gaps left in midfield and how much ground he’s asked to cover. We’re failing to play to Casemiro’s strengths and the argument that he’s finished at 32 is ridiculous. Get in a better manager, play 3 in midfield and Casemiro will look much better.
 
That_Bloke said:
I don't see the passing option to Mazraoui as a safe one, Diaz is way too close to my liking, but that's just me. Any pass to the left, even less. Unless hoof and pray is the way to go. I'm amazed to see how far from each other players are and how high the FBs are.

In two minutes, Arne Slot perfectly explained Ten Hag's style weaknesses and how Liverpool methodically dismantled his system. And that's a manager who got his team yesterday, and signed one outfield player.

That not to excuse Casemiro's performance, he was simply awful,

But people putting it all on him and saying he's cooked, can't see the wood for the trees. He was (rightly) hooked at half-time and you were still terrible. It should've been 5 or 6-0.

Ugarte better be Superman because the amount of hope put on him to save the midfield is unreal and completely unreasonable.
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Yeah we can agree to disagree on those passing options, no real biggie, we just see it differently. I remember watching as it happened, and I was fuming at Casemiro for playing the worse bloody pass imaginable in that situation.

The rest of your post I kind of agree with, though I do think there’s a measure of Casemiro being past his prime. Maybe he still has the odd performance in him, but I don’t see him sustaining any sort of elite level over a full season - not in the PL anyway. And yeah, EtH’s tactics really doesn’t do him (or any other midfielder really) any favors.
 
Giggsy13 said:
Part of that reckless play from Casemiro is the huge gaps left in midfield and how much ground he’s asked to cover. We’re failing to play to Casemiro’s strengths and the argument that he’s finished at 32 is ridiculous. Get in a better manager, play 3 in midfield and Casemiro will look much better.
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Is it? I've seen him do those in the offensive third for no damn reason.

As shown above, his decision making with the passing is also somewhat off.

I get that Ten Hag's structure caused problems, but that isn't a shield for every bad performance or decision on the field.
 
Why do you have to say "cooked" like some 18 year old on Twitter
 
Ish said:
Yeah we can agree to disagree on those passing options, no real biggie, we just see it differently. I remember watching as it happened, and I was fuming at Casemiro for playing the worse bloody pass imaginable in that situation.

The rest of your post I kind of agree with, though I do think there’s a measure of Casemiro being past his prime. Maybe he still has the odd performance in him, but I don’t see him sustaining any sort of elite level over a full season - not in the PL anyway. And yeah, EtH’s tactics really doesn’t do him (or any other midfielder really) any favors.
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No problem. Everyone is free to draw their conclusions, and as you said it doesn't change the fact that Casemiro made the worst possible choice.

Casemiro is declining, but I'm fairly certain that he still could do a job for you in a system that doesn't leave every single midfielder hanging out to dry.
 
That_Bloke said:
I don't see the passing option to Mazraoui as a safe one, Diaz is way too close to my liking, but that's just me. Any pass to the left, even less. Unless hoof and pray is the way to go. I'm amazed to see how far from each other players are and how high the FBs are.

In two minutes, Arne Slot perfectly explained Ten Hag's style weaknesses and how Liverpool methodically dismantled his system. And that's a manager who got his team yesterday, and signed one outfield player.
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It really is just you. I would expect my 15 year old son to be able to ping that pass to Mazrouai or Rashford 9 times out of 10. For a PL footballer that goes up to 99 times out of 100. It wasn’t even close to being a difficult pass.

The Arne Slot 3D chess stuff is being wildly overstated too. Did you watch the video? All he said was that our fullbacks tend to be narrow, which creates space out wide. That’s it. That’s how he “methodically dismantled” ETH’s system. Hardly fecking rocket science, is it?
 
That_Bloke said:
No problem. Everyone is free to draw their conclusions, and as you said it doesn't change the fact that Casemiro made the worst possible choice.

Casemiro is declining, but I'm fairly certain that he still could do a job for you in a system that doesn't leave every single midfielder hanging out to dry.
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Yeah, from what i recall on here, he actually started the season ok - he was good against Fulham from all accounts. Your declining comment is spot on and my opinion is that his body won't allow him to play a ultra high pressing system - which is sort of what we're trying to achieve. He doesn't have the legs or recovery pace for it. Not that EtH' is blame free in any of this - we all know his tactics have been shite.
 
He’s obviously not as good as he was at Real Madrid, but I also don’t think he’s useless. He’s just not anymore the player who is the connecting point between the defense and the rest of the team by himself. The manager needs to recognize this and change his wonky system, which he absolutely refuses to do.

Ugarte alongside him is probably the plan but bloody hell, tweak things that are absolutely not working ffs.
 
That_Bloke said:
He has zero passing options other than give it back ot any of the CBs, which he honestly should have done here. Everyone is running away from the ball, the two midfieders are hiding behind Liverpools players, Dalot is way too high. You could argue that Mazraoui relatively free, but by Diaz got enough speed to cut the pass.

The team shape is absolutely awful.

Casemiro's in on the decline and was shit against Liverpool but anyone thinking that this got nothing with Ten Hag's set-ups and how they leave the midfielders utterly exposed, should think again. He reverted back to his basketball tactics as soon as his job was safe again. There's literally none of your players in his system that looks remotely good.
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The pass to the RB is piss easy.
 
A point to prove today. Cant have 2 stinkers in a row
 
amolbhatia50k said:
The pass to the RB is piss easy.
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No it isn't it would be a difficult pass in fact. The ball is coming to him from bruno from forward position and to his left. Casemiro is moving forward, at that point it's extremely difficult to move towards the ball, open his body to his right (and as the ball is coming from his left it would be from blindside), the other option would be to try that pass with the outside of the boot, but at that distance it's anything but easy and there's not a few players that would make it.

If he tries to take a touch and face towards the mazroui, he'd get swamped by liverpool players and the option of the pass would probably be nullified as it would be obvious what he wants to do.

So no, the pass to RB is anything but easy.
 
Read the total as 'coked', which would probably explain a lot of things!
 
We're going to find out one way or another soon enough.

Methinks runners supporting and no stupid acres of grass to cover, alone and isolated, and we might just have life in the old dog yet.
 
To be fair last night he played like the happiest man in the world, like Ten Hag was his sworn enemy and he was on a victory lap. Lets see how things go, his limitations are obvious now, lets hope he's played to his strengths.
 
Fortitude said:
We're going to find out one way or another soon enough.

Methinks runners supporting and no stupid acres of grass to cover, alone and isolated, and we might just have life in the old dog yet.
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Yeah if we can cover his deficiencies, there are some good benefits to be had in return, most vitally his presence in both defensive and offensive set pieces. Got a head like a fecking ball magnet
 
I don't think he has the legs or discipline to be a No 6 anymore. He wants to play as a No 8. He seems to relish having Ugarte playing as the defensive midfielder.
 
Genuinely think his future lies as a bit of a roaming midfielder. Passing is still very good and that whipped ball he loves to do is deadly.

Still remains an incredible goal threat in the air and has a wicked shot on him. Just don't rely on him to cover massive gaps as a 6 and he'll be ok as a rotation option I think.
 
As others said, his vision to see a defense splitting pass is extraordinary and so is his knack for getting on the end of crosses into the box. In his current state, he is the best number 8 we have. Play him alongside Ugarte so that he has the freedom to roam and we're not completely fecked when he dives into a challenge and misses. I would also like to see a midfield three of Cas-Ugarte-Eriksen.
 
He’d appear to be a lot less washed if he cut down of three things that are extremely detrimental to his game.

1. The careless giveaways in possession in his own half are so costly
2. Diving in for mistimed slide tackles high up the pitch knowing there’ll be so much space behind for the opposition to run into
3. Having the awareness to release the ball when an opposition player is coming from behind to dispossess him.

He still does so many good things on the pitch but these three things he does, happen pretty regularly and it seriously hurts us as a team. Some of it is tactical but some of it is also decision making. I’m hoping Amorim can create a structure where these mistakes are limited. If he does this, Casemiro can still be a huge contributor.
 
Fortitude said:
We're going to find out one way or another soon enough.

Methinks runners supporting and no stupid acres of grass to cover, alone and isolated, and we might just have life in the old dog yet.
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Agree
 
It would probably be fantastic for Casemiro to get a Portuguese manager, at least language wise.
 
He might be effective playing 2 times every 3 weeks or so. Otherwise, he'll tire and look poor again.
 
Floyd said:
It would probably be fantastic for Casemiro to get a Portuguese manager, at least language wise.
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Hopefully he didn't two foot Amorim while he was on loan at Porto and Amorim was playing for Benfica...
 
We were playing a weakened Leicester who still scored twice, so to judge Casemiro off that game playing with Ugarte doesn’t tell you anything
 
will he start v Chelsea, can he play 2 games in a week, perhaps now with Ugarte in the team, it frees him up somewhat and he can play twice
 
wolvored said:
We were playing a weakened Leicester who still scored twice, so to judge Casemiro off that game playing with Ugarte doesn’t tell you anything
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It doesn't tell us anything that they scored twice either, both their goals had an element of fortune about them after crosses into the box, it's not like we were getting cut open.

So given the circumstances, I agree that game doesn't tell us that Casemiro will continue to play like that, but nor would it be fair then to use it as a negative against him.
 
Casemiro will still be a useful player as proved the other night.

The issue is avoiding playing him every game.
 
The judges and experts in here would make your eyes water.
 
Let's see how he does against Chelsea.
Ruud seems to like him so it looks like he will play under him.
 
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