Iran v US confrontation

That just illustrates the power of spin. The outcomes of the Iraq-Iran war and Vietnam were pretty much the same, neither side 'won' and both were happy to call it quits after years of fighting and getting nowhere. Iraq 2.0 was over almost as quickly as the first one and the Taliban fled Kabul less than a month after the war in Afghanistan started. The US has never had a problem destroying conventional forces.

It's also worth pointing out that US forces overseas have been (rightly) severely constrained by rules of engagement ever since WW2. The only time they've really loosened them was during Operation Linebacker in Vietnam and had that continued the NVA would very likely have surrendered.
There’s a lot wrong with this.

Vietnam won. I said explicitly they’ll fight us in Iran with a mix of conventional and non-conventional forces, like the Vietnamese did. The comparison to Iraq 2.0 is to show what will happen should we actually occupy any major Iranian city, again, another Vietnam. Finally, Operation Linebacker was effective at stopping the planned 1972 invasion of the South, but the North started doing exactly what it did during Rolling Thunder, finding alternate routes around bombing areas and operating at night. It would not have led to their capitulation.
 
There’s a lot wrong with this.

Vietnam won. I said explicitly they’ll fight us in Iran with a mix of conventional and non-conventional forces, like the Vietnamese did. The comparison to Iraq 2.0 is to show what will happen should we actually occupy any major Iranian city, again, another Vietnam. Finally, Operation Linebacker was effective at stopping the planned 1972 invasion of the South, but the North started doing exactly what it did during Rolling Thunder, finding alternate routes around bombing areas and operating at night. It would not have led to their capitulation.

Occupation is not invasion. Nobody is denying an occupation would be a disaster.

It depends on what you mean by won. Did the US fail to achieve their aim of toppling the NVA? Yes? Were they actually beaten on the battlefield? No. Did the NVA achieve their aim of toppling the South? Not whilst the US was still involved. It was a stalemate that the Americans ran out of patience with. Linebacker was launched to bring the North Vietnamese to the negotiating table but it had the secondary effect of seriously disrupting their war effort, far more than anything that had been done to that date.
 
It's also worth pointing out that US forces overseas have been (rightly) severely constrained by rules of engagement ever since WW2. The only time they've really loosened them was during Operation Linebacker in Vietnam and had that continued the NVA would very likely have surrendered.
Side issue, but what about North Korea and Cambodia?
 
Side issue, but what about North Korea and Cambodia?

I suppose you could say that about the Korean War when they decided to target a small number of cities for effect.

I think Cambodia is the perfect example of the Americans fighting a war halfheartedly, with no real troops on the ground aside from a few forays from the Vietnam War.
 
I suppose you could say that about the Korean War when they decided to target a small number of cities for effect.

I think Cambodia is the perfect example of the Americans fighting a war halfheartedly, with no real troops on the ground aside from a few forays from the Vietnam War.
My knowledge is surely limited there. But what I know about the bombing campaigns doesn't go together with the words "severely constrained by rules of engagement". Anyway, it was off topic from my side.
 
That was almost 40 years ago and no longer relevant to modern warfare. Besides, Iran spent 8 years trying to beat Iraq before they called a stalemate. In the Gulf War it took the US 4 days.

The Iranian Air Force hasn't had a significant new aircraft type join in 30 years. They are still flying 3rd and 4th generation aircraft at a time the US have hundreds of 5th generation aircraft and are looking at 6th gen. It's a similar story with the Army and the Navy. Plus, the big advancements now are no longer the equipment itself but the networking around it, and Iran has practically nothing there. The conventional armed forces would not last long.

I do agree however that the US would/should not invade. Destroying their standing armed forces would only be the beginning and it would be near impossible to do anything beyond that.

Occupation is not invasion. Nobody is denying an occupation would be a disaster.

It depends on what you mean by won. Did the US fail to achieve their aim of toppling the NVA? Yes? Were they actually beaten on the battlefield? No. Did the NVA achieve their aim of toppling the South? Not whilst the US was still involved. It was a stalemate that the Americans ran out of patience with. Linebacker was launched to bring the North Vietnamese to the negotiating table but it had the secondary effect of seriously disrupting their war effort, far more than anything that had been done to that date.

Vietnam won and that is universally acknowledged. They forced the Americans out, who literally had to flee Saigon on chinooks. They didn’t just decide to leave because they “ran out of patience”. In fact, LBJ acknowledged they were losing in 68 but didn’t want to be seen to have lost so continued it until Nixon was forced to withdraw.

Occupation wouldn’t be a disaster? Assume you reckon that Iraq and Afghanistan occupations have been a success? In the first one, American and allied actions have only served to embolden their supposed arch-enemy, Iran, who now have the upper hand in Iraq. In the latter, the Taliban control the majority of the country.

On your initial point, they repelled the Iraqi invaders with their purged and decimated military and then got bogged down in their counter invasion of Iraq. Had they accepted peace talks in 1982 - offered by a battered Saddam - they would have been considered victors. Not bad considering the superior Iraqi army, funded and supplied by literally every western country and the Soviet Union for good measure.

Obviously America has a vastly more powerful military. However, the Iranian army and especially the ideological RG are trained for asymmetrical warfare, something that America and Britain have found tough to contain in Iraq and Afghanistan. On top of this, Iran has so many well armed proxies in the region to call on the potential body count (if troops on the ground) will not be worth the risk, especially with an election coming up.

The vast majority in both America and the UK do not want a war with Iran, no matter what Pompeo, Bolton and any other hawks may preach. So it would be a disaster not only from a military point of view, but political also.

A great book on Iran is one by Michael Axworthy called “Revolutionary Iran”. A cracking read and really interesting. Helps understand the country.
 
A great book on Iran is one by Michael Axworthy called “Revolutionary Iran”. A cracking read and really interesting. Helps understand the country.


Nice one!

hopefully there's an audio book on this
 
Neither are especially relevant in the context of a modern conflict, especially as the Iran-Iraq war was fought using very old tactics. Just pointing out that you can't really use Iran's achievements there to support their capabilities when you consider the US took 4 days to do what they couldn't do in 8 years.

Offensive military vs defensive military. Big difference.
 


(Edit): I get the feeling Trump does not like or respect John Bolton.
 
While I don't agree with his comment and agree that the USA has done good things for the planet as well as bad, glancing over a country that is less than 250 years old is hardly ignoring the bulk of world history.

We have pubs over here, four times older than the US.
That's exactly my point. He s ignoring the history of the rest of the world/countries.
 
Probably correct. Trump wouldn't care for anyone whose appearance is as unpolished as Bolton's.

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(Edit): I get the feeling Trump does not like or respect John Bolton.


This could mean lots of things. Maybe Trump is trying to be the voice of deescalation (by his standards) this time, so when they do decide to take action he can tell the public that he is the most peaceful president ever and he tried the hardest anyone ever tried to find a peaceful resolution, but it can't be helped. So sad!
 
This could mean lots of things. Maybe Trump is trying to be the voice of deescalation (by his standards) this time, so when they do decide to take action he can tell the public that he is the most peaceful president ever and he tried the hardest anyone ever tried to find a peaceful resolution, but it can't be helped. So sad!
He's playing bad cop-good cop.

He did the same thing with Kim Jong Un. Started out calling him fat and Rocketman, then ended up becoming best friends.

Trump's MO thus far has been to rattle the sabre to make people think he's crazy. Then once he's scared everyone into thinking he's a loose cannon, he cosies up to his erstwhile enemies to make himself look like he's a statesman.

It's the international diplomacy equivalent of an abusive relationship.
 
Better than missing a secretary of attack!

Thats more accurate tbh. Has any sovereign country actually attacked usa after japan in ww2 ?

Why not just rename it to secretary of offence.
 
It was called the Secretary of War back then.

I wish it still was. Stupid name change imo.
Nah, that's fine. We conquered our empire in a series of defensive maneuvers, just like Rome. LoL

Also like Rome we have played with installing mad men in charge...
 
Seriously? Spilling top secret material on football forum?

Well, everybody is so well informed of how good or bad the US would fare on an invasion. So someone must know something to be so assertive.
 
Thats more accurate tbh. Has any sovereign country actually attacked usa after japan in ww2 ?

Why not just rename it to secretary of offence.

Same reason the last gen of nuclear missiles were named Peacekeeper. Makes you forget what they're really there for.
 
Some American official was on the radio this morning talking about forcing Iran to the table. He must have said three times about how "40 years of history has shown...."
If that's about how far back he's going to understand the Persian mindset then the US is truly feckin stupid.
When are these feckers going to learn to read their history books?