Individual Brilliance vs Pattern of play

[cyril C]

As a benchmark, Leeds is a team full of average players + B+ striker, and manage to win by movement and constant running. Kind of predictable perhaps but enough to wear down any weary opposition.

Where was our little 2-1, running behind defenders, overloading 1 side and exploit another. Counter-attack is useful, possibly 1 of the few tools for a bottom club, but we need tactics that can break down a bus.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

We are top scorers in the league.

But we've also failed to score in 5 games, more than City and West Ham and the same as Leicester, Spurs and Everton based on a quick check.

Scoring 15 in those two games against hapless opposition was awesome but it has sugar-coated the overall numbers a bit.

And to whoever said "we miss too many golden opportunities", if anything, it's the opposite. United are currently the biggest over-performers in terms of expected goals in the league.

 

[Manoucha09]

tbh not since Beckham crossing from the right onto Yorke/Ruud's head can I think of a goal that you'd think that's a typical United goal

City obviously have the tap ins which have become synonymous with them, Liverpool with the crosses from the FB's, Arsenal back in the day with the attacks from their left side but they're all pretty specific to one 'generation' of team

We're the leagues top scorers, last season MMM out scored the so called best front 3 in the world, whatever we're doing seems to be working fine and yet we all know we still need a better CF and RW

 

[Jeppers7]

And anyone who looks at our results, see that we have scored more goals than any other team in the league, including a side who is currently on an 18 game winning streak, then sees we have the 7th best defence, and decides it's our attacking play that's the problem, is in denial. You then watch those games, and see our players miss chance after chance and decide, yup, we need to create more opportunities, that's our problem. We struggle to put teams away for two simple reasons. 1.) We concede too many goals and 2.) We miss too many golden opportunities.

It’s not impossible...we do concede first far too often....but then we struggle to break down teams who park the bus. We look short on ideas. We scored 15 goals in two games. Has a big impact on our overall stats. Literally anyone who watches us and thinks....yeah we have a plan, it’ll be fine....staggers me. I want Ole to win us everything but I’m not seeing it. We’re scrapping through. We were top, we scraped it, but we were....now we’re ten points off top.

 

[meamth]

I'm sure of it. They want the swoopy lines and everything.

Love it. This is pattern of play.

 

[horsechoker]

I'm sure of it. They want the swoopy lines and everything.

 

[meamth]

I wonder what Tuchel is doing at Chelsea given they are the same players that Lamprd had. A new system and players playing to that system has turned that team around. I’m not just seeing individual brilliance from one or two players from them since his arrival.

Our pattern of play (however that is defined) appears set vs a team like sociedad last week who had a high line and don’t press - bingo for this team to counter in acres of space and we look devastating. However when we come up against a low lying defensive block, we still look insipid and certainly without any sort of pattern apart from get the ball to Bruno or Rashford and hope they produce something out of nothing.

I don't understand that either. Ole had mind blowing run when he was the interim manager.

Definitely not new manager spark....Tuchel is a geniuz.

 

[RUCK4444]

And anyone who looks at our results, see that we have scored more goals than any other team in the league, including a side who is currently on an 18 game winning streak, then sees we have the 7th best defence, and decides it's our attacking play that's the problem, is in denial. You then watch those games, and see our players miss chance after chance and decide, yup, we need to create more opportunities, that's our problem. We struggle to put teams away for two simple reasons. 1.) We concede too many goals and 2.) We miss too many golden opportunities.

This. The only thing to question in our attack is the poor finishing.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We are probably the only big football club whose fans (a big chunk) frown upon playing a more fluid style of football as if it's something we all should avoid like the plague. Whether it was under Mourinho when playing rubbish football was apparently needed to win things (entertainment Vs success), or under Ole when hitting teams with fast breaks is the choice of weapon, we have a set of fans who don't just hold their view as to the football they like (mechanical efficiency?) but seem to actively express their disdain for others preferring more exciting (in their eyes) football.

Personally, I don't enjoy Ole's preferred style of football, and agree with many that it relies too much of quick bursts of quality rather than consistently dominant team peformances. I want to see us play higher up the pitch, be much better in possession etc)

But if people do like it, that's fine. It's all very subjective. However I don't understand this rigid stance that anyone who prefers something different, should be derided for holding that view. Fans wanting to their team especially at United to play sexy football, is good.

 

[RashysTekkers]

In my 20 odd years of watching and playing football, I have never heard of the term pattern of play used. I'm convinced that it's a term created by armchair managers who spent too much time on Football Manager and too little time playing / watching the real game.

I don't understand why some posters got a problem with a team relying on individual brilliance. Football, most of the time, is won by a moment of individual brilliance, hell, sometimes it even takes individual brilliance from multiple players to win a game. Every team relies on individual brilliance of players to win big games and trophies. Where will the great Barcelona team be without Messi and Iniesta? Will Real Madrid do the 3peat without the brilliance of Cristiano Ronaldo? Take away the brilliance of Neymar and Mbappe, and PSG will not be a top club in Europe.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

In my 20 odd years of watching and playing football, I have never heard of the term pattern of play used. I'm convinced that it's a term created by armchair managers who spent too much time on Football Manager and too little time playing / watching the real game.

I don't understand why some posters got a problem with a team relying on individual brilliance. Football, most of the time, is won by a moment of individual brilliance, hell, sometimes it even takes individual brilliance from multiple players to win a game. Every team relies on individual brilliance of players to win big games and trophies. Where will the great Barcelona team be without Messi and Iniesta? Will Real Madrid do the 3peat without the brilliance of Cristiano Ronaldo? Take away the brilliance of Neymar and Mbappe, and PSG will not be a top club in Europe.

I don't think anyone here wants our individuals to be less brilliant. It's an odd take away from a particular line of thought - which is that less reliance of individual moments, and more on consistent collective peformances coupled with individual quality, is better. Seems an obvious thing to prefer.

 

[sglowrider]

Just ignore whatever Mainoldo and GoldTrafford say and you'll have a much better time here

Who?

 

[roonster09]

Some poster said the goal we scored vs West ham in FA Cup is down to individual brilliance as Rashford cushioned the ball well and McTominay timed his run perfectly. So that goal was down to individual brilliance. So when that's the case, which goal is not down to individual brilliance?

 

[roonster09]

So why did we concede less set pieces without the Solid defender. It's always tactical. It's why teams with better defence than us in the league are doing it with sh&tter players.

If us conceding more goals from set pieces is tactical, surely scoring most goals in the league is also down to tactics?

 

[The Siege]

I think 'no pattern of play' is also just a fancy way of saying that the team looks like they have very little chemistry, and I can't truthfully disagree with that.
We play decent football, but we still look like a team that's getting to know each other when it comes to a lot of the little things. Aside from Bruno, nobody else can seem to predict runs, or know when to play the ball in space in front of a teammate instead of playing it to their feet. Rashford has no clue when to release the ball and play a team mate in. Maguire and Lindelof perpetually have the Benny Hill theme song playing behind them. Martial gives a midfielder no movement to latch onto when they get the ball. A combination of all this and more makes us look disjointed instead of playing smoothly as a team.

 

[roonster09]

I think 'no pattern of play' is also just a fancy way of saying that the team looks like they have very little chemistry, and I can't truthfully disagree with that.
We play decent football, but we still look like a team that's getting to know each other when it comes to a lot of the little things. Aside from Bruno, nobody else can seem to predict runs, or know when to play the ball in space in front of a teammate instead of playing it to their feet. Rashford has no clue when to release the ball and play a team mate in. Maguire and Lindelof perpetually have the Benny Hill theme song playing behind them. Martial gives a midfielder no movement to latch onto when they get the ball. A combination of all this and more makes us look disjointed instead of playing smoothly as a team.

Ole must be GOAT if we have so many problems and still in 2nd place,

 

[He'sRaldo]

Ole must be GOAT if we have so many problems and still in 2nd place,

Yup, Mourinho was GOAT as well.

 

[roonster09]

Yup, Mourinho was GOAT as well.

Well if he keeps his team in first 11 with what was described as worse than league 2 then yes. Read the post ffs and understand the context.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

Ah, a compilation video combining good moves from whole season into a 5 minute clip. The ultimate argument in every football discussion.

So? You see these being attempted every game. How else do you prove it on an internet forum? Just type shit out and expect the other to agree?

 

[Deleted 112447]

I've been asking the "pattern of play" crowd to describe these patterns for the 2008 team for ages now and I don't get answers. Or the Real Madrid that not long ago won 3 CL in a row.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

I still don’t understand.... De Gea doesn’t do his job you literally have the future England number 1 sitting there.

A CB messes up Bailly has been there for the majority of the season as has Axel. No matter what you think of Axel he played well against PSG and wasn’t seen again since. Again that was his choice he could have given him 5 full 90 minutes to be a first choice option.

So it is on him.

Sorta agree, but a lot of hindsight...

Yes, I would love it if Ole dropped Lindelof and De Gea sooner rather than later.

Not giving De Gea the nr 1 spot at the start of the season would have been ludicrous. I agree he should have given Axel more chances after his good game vs PSG.
Bailly was out for 44 days in the first half of the season as has had 3 knocks in january & february (without playing!?). Lindelof would still have played many games were he 2nd choice.

 

[Borys]

So? You see these being attempted every game. How else do you prove it on an internet forum? Just type shit out and expect the other to agree?

well that's exactly the case with Internet forums isn't it? You "type a shit out" listing arguments which support your opinion.
If you think throwing youtube videos is the way to discuss football, then fair enough but I'm not even getting into the debate.
You will probably find a video showing Tom Cleverly passing skills, Antonio Valencia left foot magic and De Gea coming of his line compilation. It doesn't mean it happens regularly so means exactly nothing.
You don't even need to go that far, let me ask you - how do you rate Martial? He must be one of our most important players, here's a video of his amazing skills:

Video posted on the same day as the video you provided, so I guess it's as good as any.

 

[Listar]

So what is our pattern of play?

Against better teams we sit back and counter.

Against lesser teams we go forward and get countered.

 

[Listar]

Liverpool, Leicester, City, Everton, Southampton, Leeds, Chelsea(Tookal’s), Villa, Brighton, Fulham.

I always think Leicester is as much a counter attacking team as us. They only have 38% possession against Liverpool which they won with their counter.

Same for Everton. They only had 28% possession against Liverpool where they won with counters so not really an attacking outfit are they? Also only had 28% against city, 38% against us, lesser against fulham etc... But they have better patterns of play than us? You are seriously discrediting yourself here.

 

[RashyForPM]

I always think Leicester is as much a counter attacking team as us. They only have 38% possession against Liverpool which they won with their counter.

Same for Everton. They only had 28% possession against Liverpool where they won with counters so not really an attacking outfit are they? Also only had 28% against city, 38% against us, lesser against fulham etc... But they have better patterns of play than us? You are seriously discrediting yourself here.

Are Leicester and Everton meant to play in Liverpool and City’s half, dominate the ball and high-press them? Aside from Fulham, why are you listing their games against top teams?

 

[Zen86]

I've been asking the "pattern of play" crowd to describe these patterns for the 2008 team for ages now and I don't get answers. Or the Real Madrid that not long ago won 3 CL in a row.

This pretty much sums the matter up. The only examples that are cited are vague references to City: “possession” and Liverpool: “wingbacks”.

Basically, the patterns of play argument is just a roundabout way of bitching that we’re not winning everygame.

 

[Listar]

Are Leicester and Everton meant to play in Liverpool and City’s half, dominate the ball and high-press them? Aside from Fulham, why are you listing their games against top teams?

I am not expecting them to dominate but then you can't say you don't like our style but happy with theirs when it is the same freaking thing (or worse).

So why are you liking Everton style compared to us when they are actually more defensive?

Also to your point, why not? Liverpool was not expected to high press City when they first burst on to the scene. Klopp made it happened with lesser players. Leeds are doing it regardless of opposition. Your point is invalid.

 

[kthanksbye]

I think our lack of individual brilliance or lets just say lack of specific skillset is keeping us from playing the "patterns" that the coaching staff might be coming up with.

This probably is pure speculation but it doesn't help that we're having to play 2 DMs neither of who excel at crisp passing between the lines and neither of them have a great first touch and the ability to turn quickly to keep a move flowing. Then there's Awb who is not the best when it comes to contributing in the buildup, throw in Martial's lack of movement and him taking up poor positions during buildup, it's no shock that we might look a little directionless on occasions.

Now there's a case to be made that the coaching staff should be able to come up with patterns that the current set of players can execute, but given the quality Bruno has been showing, it works for us to let him take up positions and build our attacks with him as the focal point.

In conclusion, think the patterns will be more visible when we either get better players in particular positions or when the likes of Awb and Greenwood get better.

 

[Listar]

I think our lack of individual brilliance or lets just say lack of specific skillset is keeping us from playing the "patterns" that the coaching staff might be coming up with.

This probably is pure speculation but it doesn't help that we're having to play 2 DMs neither of who excel at crisp passing between the lines and neither of them have a great first touch and the ability to turn quickly to keep a move flowing. Then there's Awb who is not the best when it comes to contributing in the buildup, throw in Martial's lack of movement and him taking up poor positions during buildup, it's no shock that we might look a little directionless on occasions.

Now there's a case to be made that the coaching staff should be able to come up with patterns that the current set of players can execute, but given the quality Bruno has been showing, it works for us to let him take up positions and build our attacks with him as the focal point.

In conclusion, think the patterns will be more visible when we either get better players in particular positions or when the likes of Awb and Greenwood get better.

I disagree.

One look at the stats table and you can deduce that we actually sacrifice our defending for goals. Highest scorers vs the number of goals conceded.

Another look at the big games result you can deduce we do the opposite in these games as we sacrifice attack for more defence solidity with all the 0-0 against city, liverpool, chelsea, arsenal.

You don't need to be a genius to know what we are doing.

 

[RashyForPM]

I am not expecting them to dominate but then you can't say you don't like our style but happy with theirs when it is the same freaking thing (or worse).

So why are you liking Everton style compared to us when they are actually more defensive?

Also to your point, why not? Liverpool was not expected to high press City when they first burst on to the scene. Klopp made it happened with lesser players. Leeds are doing it regardless of opposition. Your point is invalid.

Why not? Because it was the right tactic which lead to both Leicester and Everton beating Liverpool. The only reason Everton lost to City is because no tactic is beating City in this form unless it’s Bayern or PSG playing them. Another typical example of a Caf manager thinking they know better than managers whose tactic won their teams the game. Evertonian teams have many times since 1999 gone right at Pool teams and got beaten. Ancelotti went defensive, made it any other game, and won comfortably. Leicester went at Pool last season and lost 0-4. They countered this season and won 3-1

Also, I didn’t say I don’t like our style or that Everton’s is better than ours. You were replying to someone else. I made a thread saying that we are the most entertaining team in the league ffs. I have complaints about Ole, like in-game management and his subs, but I don’t moan about our style of play because it’s fun and entertaining. I’m just telling you that you can’t expect Leicester and Everton to go right as Pool, especially when their counter-attacking tactic won them the game.

Finally, you cite the example of Leeds. Well, Leicester and Everton are also attacking small teams, like Leeds. Meanwhile, Leeds are going gung ho against the top teams as well. Against the current top 7, they’ve had a solitary win, away at Leicester. Working well isn’t it this all out attack tactic?

 

[kthanksbye]

I disagree.

One look at the stats table and you can deduce that we actually sacrifice our defending for goals. Highest scorers vs the number of goals conceded.

Another look at the big games result you can deduce we do the opposite in these games as we sacrifice attack for more defence solidity with all the 0-0 against city, liverpool, chelsea, arsenal.

You don't need to be a genius to know what we are doing.

Doesn't that just reiterate the fact that our defending is poor?
That when we attack we leak goals at the back and in order to defend we need to give our back line lots of cover?

 

[Listar]

Why not? Because it was the right tactic which lead to both Leicester and Everton beating Liverpool. The only reason Everton lost to City is because no tactic is beating City in this form unless it’s Bayern or PSG playing them. Another typical example of a Caf manager thinking they know better than managers whose tactic won their teams the game. Evertonian teams have many times since 1999 gone right at Pool teams and got beaten. Ancelotti went defensive, made it any other game, and won comfortably. Leicester went at Pool last season and lost 0-4. They countered this season and won 3-1

Also, I didn’t say I don’t like our style or that Everton’s is better than ours. You were replying to someone else. I made a thread saying that we are the most entertaining team in the league ffs. I have complaints about Ole, like in-game management and his subs, but I don’t moan about our style of play because it’s fun and entertaining. I’m just telling you that you can’t expect Leicester and Everton to go right as Pool, especially when their counter-attacking tactic won them the game.

Finally, you cite the example of Leeds. Well, Leicester and Everton are also attacking small teams, like Leeds. Meanwhile, Leeds are going gung ho against the top teams as well. Against the current top 7, they’ve had a solitary win, away at Leicester. Working well isn’t it this all out attack tactic?

Then stop butting into other people's conversation blindly! Because it looks like you are defending Mainaldo that Everton's style is better than United. Everything else you said is off topic to be honest as we are not trying to argue which style is more effective.

Mainaldo is quoting all teams like Leeds and Southampton so maybe you should reply to him with your response. I have the same opinion as you so not sure why you are replying to me.

 

[Listar]

Doesn't that just reiterate the fact that our defending is poor?
That when we attack we leak goals at the back and in order to defend we need to give our back line lots of cover?

Yes our defence is a problem, not our attack. I mean I thought every one knows that but there are still these "lack of patterns of play" arguments.

 

[BootsyCollins]

We quite clearly has alot of patters in our games. Some large, like starting short to our CB, find a WB a little further up the field to then find a CM and have a forward drop down typ create space for Bruno in the hole.
Some small, like Shaw overlap when the LF has the ball on the left side.
Even at throw in we have small patterns that are quite easy to see.

Its in the collective defence i would say we miss a ”pattern” as we still seems a little lost on positioning some times.

 

[kthanksbye]

Yes our defence is a problem, not our attack. I mean I thought every one knows that but there are still these "lack of patterns of play" arguments.

I agree with you, that just because some of us aren't able to identify or appreciate the patterns, doesn't mean we don't have any.
Perhaps I should've worded my post better, I meant to say that, once we upgrade on some positions and some of our young players develop, when we won't need two DMs to protect the defense, the patterns will be largely visible for everyone to see.
Getting the maximum end product from Bruno IS a pattern, we haven't scored 53 goals without pattern.

 

[Mainoldo]

His legendary Madrid team didn't play bad football. You have no credibility

They did. That’s why the Madrid fans ran him out.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

His legendary Madrid team didn't play bad football. You have no credibility

Legendary is a bit much. They won a league and a cup under him amidst absolute domination by their rivals at the time.

 

[Bobcat]

We’re certainly not an extensively drilled side with our patterns of play and/or pressing, a la City, Liverpool, Leeds, Leipzig etc.
That’s not up for debate.

That said, I made the argument the other day that Zidane’s 3 in row Madrid team weren’t either, but that relies on having a very special squad. With the right players though... well Zidane’s individualistic Madrid won more CL’s in 3 years than Pep has managed in his entire managerial career.
There’s pluses and minuses for both.

This. No doubt Ole gives the players much more freedom and responsibility than some other coaches, but is that nesscarily a bad thing?

We were thoroughly drilled under Van Gaal with patterns gallore, but do people really miss that shite?

 

[Listar]

We’re certainly not an extensively drilled side with our patterns of play and/or pressing, a la City, Liverpool, Leeds, Leipzig etc.
That’s not up for debate.

That said, I made the argument the other day that Zidane’s 3 in row Madrid team weren’t either, but that relies on having a very special squad. With the right players though... well Zidane’s individualistic Madrid won more CL’s in 3 years than Pep has managed in his entire managerial career.
There’s pluses and minuses for both.

I do like Leipzig style of play but is it suitable in the premier league to win a title? I mean we did hammer them 5-0 so I expect other teams can take points off them too

 

[Ødegaard]

I love counter-attacks. Its what I've been raised on.

I do think we should improve a lot in how we break down a side defending for their life, but that is hard for any team bar the very best both in coaching and personnel. I also believe we need a few upgrades in the squad and first eleven for that to be something we can be great at.

On top of that our defense is not performing. But I'd rather watch us score the most goal in the league and get top 4 than having the least goals against an get top 4.

Patterns of play to break down defensive opposition is really great to watch when it works, but can have a Benny Hill theme thrown over it when it doesn't.