India tour of South Africa.

Should India rest Zaheer and go with Yadav?
Think it could be bad if we lose the toss, having bowled so many overs on day 5 and having to bowl again, with the same 3 bowlers.

Another related question -- with the number of right handers SA have got, Ashwin, as disciplined as he was, looked ineffective. Do you guys think Jadeja can do a job?

I really think Jadeja's worth a punt as the lone spinner, if not here, somewhere..
 
I don't care if you think it's nonsense.

You can not seriously blame South Africa for not risking losing the game and then absolve India of the same criticism. Both teams were faced with a risk/reward scenario and both teams, or India and Philander himself, decided to take the only option that didn't involve any risk.
 
zing said:
Should India rest Zaheer and go with Yadav?
Think it could be bad if we lose the toss, having bowled so many overs on day 5 and having to bowl again, with the same 3 bowlers.

Another related question -- with the number of right handers SA have got, Ashwin, as disciplined as he was, looked ineffective. Do you guys think Jadeja can do a job?

I really think Jadeja's worth a punt as the lone spinner, if not here, somewhere..
Click to expand...

I was thinking of this but it would be quite harsh on Ashwin. It makes sense though...
 
NinjaFletch said:
I don't care if you think it's nonsense.

You can not seriously blame South Africa for not risking losing the game and then absolve India of the same criticism. Both teams were faced with a risk/reward scenario and both teams, or India and Philander himself, decided to take the only option that didn't involve any risk.
Click to expand...

I agree. It's certainly not choking at any rate. Think some are just disappointed at the anti-climatic end
 
NinjaFletch said:
I don't care if you think it's nonsense.

You can not seriously blame South Africa for not risking losing the game and then absolve India of the same criticism. Both teams were faced with a risk/reward scenario and both teams, or India and Philander himself, decided to take the only option that didn't involve any risk.
Click to expand...

Yes. Both are equally to be blamed, if at all. India clearly showed no intent of win as well. I don't agree with the reasoning of 3 tailenders not getting out in 3 overs. Bizzare. If 3 top order SA wickets can go down in 3 overs, then certainly can last 3. Get Steyn and you have 13-14 balls to get out injured Morkel and fairly useless Tahir and adding more pressure on Vernon.

Also, Indian cricket team fans should be last people saying 3 tailender wickets can't go down in 3 overs when it is happening with us for decades and decades now. Just have a look at this match first innings for that matter, no need to go back further.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I don't care if you think it's nonsense.

You can not seriously blame South Africa for not risking losing the game and then absolve India of the same criticism. Both teams were faced with a risk/reward scenario and both teams, or India and Philander himself, decided to take the only option that didn't involve any risk.
Click to expand...

I am not blaming SA for not going for it. I already said in terms of a series win it was a good choice. What I do argue with is that both India and SA had equal opportunity to go for it. Which is complete nonse.

In test cricket picking 3 wickets in 18 balls is very tough for a bowling side and batting side will always be the favourite to ride it out. On the other hand getting 16 off 18 still makes the batting side favourite.

Also this SA team wants to be counted among the greats. Well, no Oz team would have settled for a draw here. Infact even if they had one wicket down, they would probably go for the win.
 
The Man Himself said:
Yes. Both are equally to be blamed, if at all. India clearly showed no intent of win as well. I don't agree with the reasoning of 3 tailenders not getting out in 3 overs. Bizzare. If 3 top order SA wickets can go down in 3 overs, then certainly can last 3. Get Steyn and you have 13-14 balls to get out injured Morkel and fairly useless Tahir and adding more pressure on Vernon.

Also, Indian cricket team fans should be last people saying 3 tailender wickets can't go down in 3 overs when it is happening with us for decades and decades now. Just have a look at this match first innings for that matter, no need to go back further.
Click to expand...


I think you need to watch a bit more of test cricket. Most teams would back their last 3 batsmen to ride out at least 3 overs no matter the pitch or the bowlers. Bowling someone out in 4th innings to win the match is totally different situation to taking wickets in any other innings.
 
crappycraperson said:
I think you need to watch a bit more of test cricket. Most teams would back their last 3 batsmen to ride out at least 3 overs no matter the pitch or the bowlers. Bowling someone out in 4th innings to win the match is totally different situation to taking wickets in any other innings.
Click to expand...

I have watched enough Test Cricket to know that teams don't chicken out like India and Dhoni did by putting everyone on boundry and bowling wide bouncers to tailenders. You need to get over this belief that it is only you who understand the game before making prickish comments like your first sentence.
 
The Man Himself said:
I have watched enough Test Cricket to know that teams don't chicken out like India and Dhoni did by putting everyone on boundry and bowling wide bouncers to tailenders. You need to get over this belief that it is only you who understand the game before making prickish comments like your first sentence.
Click to expand...


Actually Dhoni correctly said that he attacked more than he should have. Some one like Cook would have had men on boundaries from the first over of the day. I am not saying my opinion is absolute but I am aghast to read that any one could think that India has same opportunity or onus as SA to win from that position. If it was just a matter of getting 3 wickets, then of course any captain would have attacked. But 3 wickets with 16 runs to get in 3 overs. Under no circumstances is the bowling team favorite in that situation.
 
Why are you getting so bloody defensive over a little bit of flak in India's direction?

And what does Cook have to do with anything?
 
I don't think India can be accused of anything other than poor cricket for the final two days. With 3 overs to go and 3 wickets to take with only 16 runs needed, South Africa were the favorites. The problem is not that they couldn't score the required runs, the problem is that Philander decided not to. They didn't even try, and the deliveries which the Indian bowlers bowled were not unplayable.
 
Of course India were more than entitled to go defensive. 16 runs in 3 overs is really nothing.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Why are you getting so bloody defensive over a little bit of flak in India's direction?

And what does Cook have to do with anything?
Click to expand...

He's not getting defensive. The Man Himself is genuinely talking rubbish here.
 
At that moment, even I got carried away and was willing Shammi to attack. But having thought about it later, that maiden was critical for India. If Steyn had cracked that six in that over off an attempted yorker, match would have been effectively over. India had almost no chances of recovering from a mistake at that point, as it is we got lucky with that run out. While SA even if they had lost one more wicket would have backed themselves to ride out 17 balls with tailenders or at least should have.

I don't think they bottled it but I think no one took responsibility in the dressing room to make it clear one way or another. There is no way Philander decides against the team order to draw the match. Smith should have taken the responsibility either way.

Bestie is right though. Regardless of how SA played, India should ask themselves why they were not able to get SA out in the amount of time they have. I do think SA deserve a lot of credit and India did not necessarily blunder but we did not build up the pressure properly. Too many loose balls to release pressure at critical junctions and Dhoni also did not utilize his bowlers properly. I also think the current line up badly lacks a fifth bowler option.
 
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=overall;home_or_away=1;opposition=6;orderby=fow_average;partnership_wicketmin1=8;partnership_wicketval1=partnership_wicket;spanmin1=01 jan 2000;spanval1=span;template=results;type=fow

^ Above is, the average per dismissal for the last 3 wickets for teams against India, for matches played away from India, since 2000.

20.67 per dismissal, which translates to 62 runs for the last 3 wickets on average. And

You're having a laugh if you think India had anywhere near the same probability of winning as SA.

There's the possibility that Cricinfo treats "wickets 8-10" as fall of wicket and not batting order wicket. Which could mean that one end was shored up by a proper batsman. Even accounting for that, half the runs would've been scored by the tail. At a extremely conservative estimate, the tailenders score at least 32 runs on average.
 
I hate Irfan Pathan. Should have developed as a genuine all rounder instead he's a joke right now.
 
We need to develop someone as a partnership breaking 5th bowler. Even in the Kolkatta test, Sachin took 3 critical wickets to aid in the win. You need such contributions from time to time.
 
Too much burden on an already inexperienced team.

I was surprised by Vijay's bowling. He bowled some decent off cutters. Non threatening but more disciplined than Rohit, who bowls a fair bit more.
 
zing said:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=overall;home_or_away=1;opposition=6;orderby=fow_average;partnership_wicketmin1=8;partnership_wicketval1=partnership_wicket;spanmin1=01 jan 2000;spanval1=span;template=results;type=fow

^ Above is, the average per dismissal for the last 3 wickets for teams against India, for matches played away from India, since 2000.

20.67 per dismissal, which translates to 62 runs for the last 3 wickets on average. And

You're having a laugh if you think India had anywhere near the same probability of winning as SA.

There's the possibility that Cricinfo treats "wickets 8-10" as fall of wicket and not batting order wicket. Which could mean that one end was shored up by a proper batsman. Even accounting for that, half the runs would've been scored by the tail. At a extremely conservative estimate, the tailenders score at least 32 runs on average.
Click to expand...

:lol: You just can't use stats like that as anything conclusive.

For a start, Tahir's average of 11 flatters him. Secondly, this was the state of Morkel's foot. Do you seriously think he's going to fancy a yorker with that?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bb_ERUrIAAA0_tr.jpg

Thirdly, given the match situation if SA had lost Steyn, do you honestly think they would continue attacking?

No ones claiming India had as good a chance of winning as SA but that doesn't excuse Dhoni for not trying to win anymore than it excuses Smith/Philander. Both teams played negative cricket in the last 3 overs to ensure a draw and it was bad for the game as a spectacle.
 
crappycraperson said:
At that moment, even I got carried away and was willing Shammi to attack. But having thought about it later, that maiden was critical for India. If Steyn had cracked that six in that over off an attempted yorker, match would have been effectively over. India had almost no chances of recovering from a mistake at that point, as it is we got lucky with that run out. While SA even if they had lost one more wicket would have backed themselves to ride out 17 balls with tailenders or at least should have.

I don't think they bottled it but I think no one took responsibility in the dressing room to make it clear one way or another. There is no way Philander decides against the team order to draw the match. Smith should have taken the responsibility either way.

Bestie is right though. Regardless of how SA played, India should ask themselves why they were not able to get SA out in the amount of time they have. I do think SA deserve a lot of credit and India did not necessarily blunder but we did not build up the pressure properly. Too many loose balls to release pressure at critical junctions and Dhoni also did not utilize his bowlers properly. I also think the current line up badly lacks a fifth bowler option.
Click to expand...

This.

We (SA) were favourites at that point (16 from 3 overs with 2.5 wickets left) and should have gone for it. In fact, that's something I've always loved about the Australians, win or lose, they always tried to play attacking cricket.

But in the end and tbh, no one really deserved to lose that test match so I'm more then happy with a draw and it sets the series up for a great climax in Durbs.
 
zing said:
Should India rest Zaheer and go with Yadav?
Think it could be bad if we lose the toss, having bowled so many overs on day 5 and having to bowl again, with the same 3 bowlers.

Another related question -- with the number of right handers SA have got, Ashwin, as disciplined as he was, looked ineffective. Do you guys think Jadeja can do a job?

I really think Jadeja's worth a punt as the lone spinner, if not here, somewhere..
Click to expand...

I think he's. Bowls a steady line and length, and IMO he doesn't need the pitch's help as much as Ashwin do.

Was really disappointed by Ashwin tbh, even Duminy looked like a more threatening bowler than him.

I also think this test match showed why we need to blood in Rishi Dhawan, as soon as possible. He's a decent lower order bat who can bowl around 130-135k. He was in the playing XI of MI team which won the CL and IPL so he couldn't be that. Worth a shot IMO. Zak is still skillful but his stamina isn't great right now, and he can't be expected to bowl long spells. Even the SA pace attack looked toothless without a fifth bowler.

I'd drop Shikhar and promote Rahane to the opening slot and give Rishi Dhawan a chance as the fast bowling all rounder.
 
Jadeja is playing.

Looks a good side on paper. Toss won, everything right so far. Just hope they have the mental strength to bat long after a tough test only last week.

Dhawan needs to get a 50 here, at least.
 
How the hell does Morkel get match-fit in 5 days? Incredible.

I landed on my ankle once and it took months.
 
Pitch looks more Indian than South African.

Pollock mentioned that the pitch was prepared expecting it'd be under covers in the lead up because of rain yesterday and the day before, but the sun came out and it turned out very differently.

Not sure how that works, but there you go.
 
Dale Steyn's suddenly cranked it up. Super bowling. Vijay hit on the forearm.. always surprises me that the bones don't crumble into dust when hit like that.
 
Pujara has been a perfect replacement for Dravid in his short career. Great temperament, and technique for test matches.
 
So what's happened to steyn? Or are these wickets not typical SA wickets?
 
Combination of not being typical SA wickets and some very good batting. The second innings of the first test was flat and this has been a flat wicket. I did not see the whole day's play, but SA have bowled well for a reasonably flat wicket.

Pujara's making wicket balls look like decent deliveries.
 
This match is heading to a draw.

Rain in the morning, bad light in the evening..
 
We really should have played a 5 match series. Could have been a classic.
 
In a way nice that Vijay didn't get hundred. When the Bangars and Samarweeras and Vijays get hundred in SA/England etc, mainly due to lesser assistance for bowlers, I feel sad.

Also Rohit :lol:
 
Rohit fails again.

Still think he's got it.

Problem with shortened matches like this is that the 2nd innings of the match becomes huge. If SA get in and get a tiny lead or even match our score, we can't win the match after that, but they can.
 
Find it strange how Jadeja's batting is so down-hyped now.

When he made his debut, it was on the back of his runs, pretty much.

Ravi Shastri talking today about how he can contribute a few runs down the order.
 
That's because he's been downright rubbish with the bat since he's made his debut. He's pretty much a bowler who can slog a bit in the one days
 
Just watching the fall of wickets.. that is a piss poor leave from Rohit. Brain fart. Wasn't even a good ball.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.