Just because he could correctly diagnose that the club was dysfunctional behind the scenes doesn't make him a worthy manager now. Rangnick also got a few things spot on, I wouldn't want him as manager either.
In hindsight, Mourinho was right about a few things?
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He should never, ever have been even considered, at any time. But even on that basis, I've never believed he's wrong about everything. So in that way, the OP question is kind of pointless.
Except basically all his previous signings weren't working out, and we know a bunch of the players that he wanted that transfer window and they wouldn't have worked out either. Other than Perisic who might have been good for a couple of seasons, the next best he wanted was getting Maguire 12 months earlier for 10m less than we eventually paid. A player that plenty consider one of our biggest ever flops. The others he wanted were the likes of Dier, a past-it WIllian, a past-it Alderweireld, etc. So we would have spent even more money on players that weren't good enough and just making our team older and older.
Oh JP, you right stuff so confidently but you can literally just look at the accounts for that year. I get you don't like Mou, neither do I, but we gave up on him that summer and he cried about it all pre season.
Riddle me this. Mou had back to back CL seasons (from financial perspective), won 2 cups, got to 2 finals and finished second in the league but there was no money that summer. Yet the summer after, Ole comes in having finished outside of the European places and spends a huge amount on Maguire, AWB, James and then Bruno in Jan. I will wait with interest on how that can be explained.
As in for any manager?
Disagree. Fergie leaving meant there were big shoes to fill and he (at the time) was a strong candidate. Moyes wilted under the pressure - the job was genuinely too big for him.
We had an ageing but still quality first team squad, and I believe he would have fairly quickly realised who he would need to keep and who would be needed to move on (he did similar in his stints at Real and Inter when he first rocked up). I also don't think we would have been as shambolic in the transfer market as he would have some names already (but you can never put anything past Woodward).
In any case - I wouldn't have seen us go from 1st to 7th if Mou was the first man in the job post Fergie.
It would've saved us from an immediate collapse. I think we'd have won another title with Fergie's old boys last dance. After 2 seasons though he'd have been done and Ed Woodward leading a club rebuild would've probably ended in disaster anyway.
We definitely wouldn't have got Klopp to come in to adult Disneyland.
Yea, I agree - he'd have imploded as he always does, and it'd be exacerbated given how incompetent Woody and his acolytes are, but I think we would have maintained some semblance of success in the immediate aftermath of Fergie's retirement.
I did look at the accounts for that year. That's why I can tell you that as of June 30 2018, Manchester United had 259m due within a year and an addition of 66m potentially due based on performannces. I can also tell you that within three years the club's spending in salaries and wages went from 232m to 332m. Also the payments for intangible assets in 18-19, 17-18 and 16-17 were respecitvely 178m, 155m and 193m.
I agree. Mourinho instead of Moyes would have been fantastic. Yes the football would have been different, but we'd have rebuilt and continued winning.
In hindsight hindsight..
Firstly, you ignored my question. Can you give me answer given it's quite obvious you're incorrect.
You're just posting numbers - that only works if I just see them and don't understand them and then think 'oh you must be right because there's loads of numbers there'. Read this.
And these. Source is Price of football.
Also this, ESPN, Woodward boasting about our revenue.
Mourinho on Sky was amazing while it lasted. They all turned into little boys around him and were just silent any time he spoke because he clearly knew so much more about the game than any of them.
There is no manager that would be a fit for us, we have been the problem.
Of course, Mourinho was right about some things. Then so was Moyes, LVG and Ole as well. Rangnick was actually the one who spoke most candidly and would probably have taken better steps to get us out of this ridiculous squad situation.
I meant more, at that time in particular, there was a wish to find someone more 'attacking'. I agree though, the people in the broader club were clearly not qualified and it was a difficult job for whoever came in.
I actually enjoyed for the most part his first season. We ended up 6th but I think we were creating chances, and were missing shit loads of chances. Im sure it was that season where we battered Stoke, had like 20 chances, finally scored then let a daft goal in. Felt like the story of that season where we went on a period of just getting random draws. But the two cups were nice, thought it was Pogbas best season, Zlatan getting close to 30 goals before his injury (and even then, he missed about 20 great chances, he should have easily got 40 goals that season). Mkhi showed promise too.
That second season wasnt bad but it kinda all went wrong with those Sevilla games. It was just horrible to watch us play like that. I thought, ok we get the draw at their place then try overwhelm them at home, but instead it was more of the same, but conceding. Seemed like we only played once 2 down.
And then those games from that point until the FA cup final (which was the worst). Thought Jose was cowardly in his cup final set up, and we were set to defend a 1-0 loss which was odd.
But basically the managers whilst there all had good things to say about Glazers (obviously). I think Ralf was the only one who whilst manager (although caretaker) kinda threw a bomb or two.
That second season wasnt bad but it kinda all went wrong with those Sevilla games. It was just horrible to watch us play like that. I thought, ok we get the draw at their place then try overwhelm them at home, but instead it was more of the same, but conceding. Seemed like we only played once 2 down.
And then those games from that point until the FA cup final (which was the worst). Thought Jose was cowardly in his cup final set up, and we were set to defend a 1-0 loss which was odd.
But basically the managers whilst there all had good things to say about Glazers (obviously). I think Ralf was the only one who whilst manager (although caretaker) kinda threw a bomb or two.
Firstly, you ignored my question. Can you give me answer given it's quite obvious you're incorrect.
You're just posting numbers - that only works if I just see them and don't understand them and then think 'oh you must be right because there's loads of numbers there'. Read this.
And these. Source is Price of football.
Also this, ESPN, Woodward boasting about our revenue.
What do you think this table is supposed to show? Not only it's one year short, 2018 figures end in June 30th 2018 and the table that you shared registers a loss at the end of 17-18.
And Woodward can boast about the club's revenue, they were big but as were our spendings. That's why I shared the current obligations that the club had and the yearly spending on players registration over three years.
And I did answer that question though not explicitely, in June 2018 United had short term obligations(less than a year) that amounted to 259m, in 2019 it was 229m and in 2020 it was 189m. So to answer your question United had far less already allocated spendings during the following seasons which makes more room to sign future obligations.
He was right about a few things, it normal, but he could not fix them. Had the chance, now he is history.
Even we, on the forum, are sometimes right about a few things but no one offers us a manager position.
Even we, on the forum, are sometimes right about a few things but no one offers us a manager position.
Predicting that a player is not going to be a massive success is the stupidest prediction you can praise somebody for. Vast majority of transfers never even come close and a manager can very much manufacture this on top of that.
Is it a year short? Mou's last summer window was 18/19 so if this data ends June 30th 2018 it is the data we use for the summer 2018 transfer window surely?
United have always had debt in some form and varying payments/timelines, what doesn't make sense about the hindsight idea of not backing Mou due to paying off debt was what then followed season on season even when we were making far less money and without Europe. Also reading the price of football article you can the see issue is much more apparent in the summer of 2019 because we miss out on the CL money.
What do you think is more likely, there was no more money available for that specific summer but then it's back to £150m + seasons afterwards, even with missing out on the CL qualification or the board saw Mou's previous signings and lost trust in him? I was in this latter camp for what it's worth that summer, I wanted him to make do with the CBs he had signed (Bailly/Lindelof) instead of complaining he needed more but the point is if you want to challenge City, you can't not spend and there was money available. Plus, in fairness to Mou, we know now how the transfers worked with United and managers usually didn't get their top choices in most positions.
Came in here to say exactly this.
Yes but not with the table that you used. What you are going to look at in June 2018 is how much unallocated and allocated money you have in the future and how it's structured. Which again is why I gave you two figures, one that tells you how much the club spent in registrations for each seasons and how much money was allocated in the short term.
The club spent over 150m during every seasons under Mourinho because the club owed money from previous seasons. It's comparable to someone purchasing a car and paying installments every months, your available income is whatever is left after you paid all your obligations and when these obligations are fulfilled then you can have more available income even if you didn't increase your revenues or if they decreased.
If I earn 10k and have bills and borrowings that amounts to 9500€, when my 2000€ monthly debt is paid then I will have 2500€ available until then I have 500€. Could I borrow more money? Probably, but it's not fiscally prudent.
That is the correct table, it comes from the article I referenced. Not sure how you can argue otherwise given all your figures come from that year as well.
I think everyone knows how obligations work. I don't really know what to tell you other than you're ignoring me giving you articles saying we were in a strong financial position for that summer window and you are choosing to ignore it.
This is Swiss Ramble reporting on it. They even reference Mourinho's justification in his complaints about spending (it is written post 2018 summer window).
That table has no relevance to the points made, that's why I asked you what you think it says. That table doesn't tell you how much money is already allocated for the 18-19 season, nor does the article which is a pretty big oversight.
But if you think that the money already allocated should be ignored then be my guest.
That table is relevant because it shows the finances up to summer 2018, we are discussing the summer 2018 window. That should not have to be reclarified again.
I just gave you Swiss Ramble as a source, addressing this directly and writing at a time post 2018 summer, you can literally read the article and see you are wrong. How can you explain that when it is written after the window has ended?
The issue isn't when it's written but that it is ignoring allocated expenses for 18-19. I have nothing more to say about it.
Not anywhere near as much as Ragnick got right.
Define allocated expense and I will get you the number for it?
No, I already gave you the numbers(from the club's financial statement) and I made my point. We have nothing to talk about.
I dont know if we would have rebuild but Mourinho would have been the best option to squeeze the last little bit out of those aging, former worldclass player we had at the time.
Are you not engaging now because you've looked at 19/20 and seen you're wrong?
Well maybe look at those reports and point to me where the repayments are that handicapped us in the 18/19 window, as we are discussing?
I already did. So do me a favor and move on.
Yes I think so too. He would have galvanised the older heads to maybe be able to challenge again once more and he wouldn’t have accepted Ed fumbling the summer window with some great playmakers up for sale. Not the long term choice but he would have been better than Moyes
I think it's fine to say he was right about a few things, probably about a few players who are still here, but you also wouldn't really want him managing the club either. He's easily been the best we've had in the post SAF era but that's not saying a lot.
The sad thing is, when you look at the points totals of the premier league winners and even some of the challengers you're usually looking at 80+ points. He's the only manager to have done it and even that wasn't a proper title challenge. The next best are:
EtH- 22-23- 75 points
Ole 20-21- 74 points
LVG 14-15- 70 points
Rest of the seasons in the post-SAF era - below 70 points
That's just absolutely dire for a club like United. We're a top 4 challenger every season and never even close to making an attempt at the league title.
The sad thing is, when you look at the points totals of the premier league winners and even some of the challengers you're usually looking at 80+ points. He's the only manager to have done it and even that wasn't a proper title challenge. The next best are:
EtH- 22-23- 75 points
Ole 20-21- 74 points
LVG 14-15- 70 points
Rest of the seasons in the post-SAF era - below 70 points
That's just absolutely dire for a club like United. We're a top 4 challenger every season and never even close to making an attempt at the league title.
LVG, Jose and Rangnick were correct about various things. Were they more wrong than right?
In the almost two and half years he spent as United's manager Jose lived all of that time in a luxury hotel suite and reputedly never really looked for a house in the NW. Somehow he must have known he wasn't stopping!
Yes, Jose had some insights into what was wrong at the club (so do most of the fans) but he was unable to 'manage upwards' at the club and manipulate his bosses, probably because the Glazer's didn't really know what he was on about!
The United job was Jose's last big 'Hurrah'/pay day in club management, certainly in the PL, but I wouldn't bet against him finishing up managing Portugal's National Team; something he has always mentioned ... in passing/from time to time...
Yes, Jose had some insights into what was wrong at the club (so do most of the fans) but he was unable to 'manage upwards' at the club and manipulate his bosses, probably because the Glazer's didn't really know what he was on about!
The United job was Jose's last big 'Hurrah'/pay day in club management, certainly in the PL, but I wouldn't bet against him finishing up managing Portugal's National Team; something he has always mentioned ... in passing/from time to time...
He was probably spot on about judgement of his players under his management. Mourinho is famous for knowing his player, including whether he is in form or not, have good potential for improvement or not, how and where to use the players on the pitch.
His problem is his arrogance, making players and media dislike him and everyone was piling up on him when things are not going well (selfish reason from players who were not doing well and tried to blame the manager). Secondly, his tactics were good in the early years in EPL but become predictable which allows modern managers to exploit. Same 2 problems apply to LVG.
His problem is his arrogance, making players and media dislike him and everyone was piling up on him when things are not going well (selfish reason from players who were not doing well and tried to blame the manager). Secondly, his tactics were good in the early years in EPL but become predictable which allows modern managers to exploit. Same 2 problems apply to LVG.