How peaceful is Islam?

[Cheesy]

It's difficult to give an exact definition since a religion is generally as peaceful as is practicers make it out to be, since there are passages in their religious texts which say that those who follow Islam should harm no creatures at all, with others that condone and even encourage violence.

I'd say that it's undoubtedly a very small minority who commit atrocities like what we saw in Paris, and the far bigger imminent problem in relation to Islam is how backwards some of their less harmful, but still very worrying beliefs are, such as their attitudes towards women and reservations against free speech among other things.

 

[Eriku]

We are talking about 2015, though. If you go far enough in the past, you will find everyone's ancestors were killers and rapists. That's not a reason to justify barbaric behavior in the 21st century.

Your thread doesn't say "how peaceful is Islam in 2015" or the 21st century, or what have you, so if nothing else that clarification was needed.

Secondly, the acts of IS and other islamists are gruesome, no doubt, and born out of great hatred. However, our (the western world's) casual bombing of targets in the 3rd world and elsewhere is every bit as destructive, and the indifference with which we can outsource these things and not give a damn that blood is being spilt with our taxes backing them.

We've never been on the other side. I have a friend from Palestine, he's just gotten into the municipal council of my neighbouring municipality, and is a sharp and politically engaged fella. Once he got in there were a few pieces on him and his past... One of them outlined how he went to a friend's place for a barbecue, only to hear bombs go off in the distance. When he made it to the friend's place he found that it had been fecked up proper, and his friend was spread all over the place. Him and his mates go with plastic bags and pick up pieces of their friend. Hands, fingers and other stuff lying around, eyeballs in bushes... I can't imagine that. I can't imagine the other story mentioned in that piece, where he saw his uncle's charred body, clutching his infant daughter. Good Christians support Israeli atrocities, that don't seem to hit home like Paris did, does it?

These are just some of his stories, and he's one man, from one country. I, for one, can't fathom a life like that, having experienced that, and the hatred that could stir. It makes me object strongly to saying that it's something inherently to do with Islam, rather than a manifestation of it under dire conditions.

And this is coming from an atheist, who's ready to slate religion at the drop of a hat.

 

[2cents]

Have been through this a dozen times in the other threads, so won't repeat myself here (see here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-whats-the-point.215250/page-217#post-18390272 and here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paris-terror-attacks-on-friday-13th.411482/page-56#post-18395116 for my views on the matter).

I'd just add that there are many factors external to Islam itself contributing to the violence emerging from Muslim societies right now, obviously the impact of the West is well-argued for. There is also for example the so-called "youth bulge". The population explosion in the Arab world and elsewhere has not been accompanied by any sort of economic progress, the result has been a rapid growth in unemployment or underemployed young men, always the most destructive element in any society. During the 19th century Europe went through a similar population explosion, the difference was these problem elements could be shipped off to the colonies to terrorize the native and/or take their place. No such option exists for the Islamic world right now.

Other issues include a fight for diminishing resources (linked to above and a major factor in the Syrian Civil War which was preceded by a serious drought in the very rural areas dominated by the jihadists right now) and the family structure in the Arab world which tends to be patriarchal and autocratic (I've experienced this in Christian Arab families personally).

 

[Amar__]

In the figures in OP is what France are doing to Syria now considered terrorism? Does that count to those figures? I mean bombing a school has to be terrorism. So it should count to those figures?

No, they have this excuse that they want to kill one or two ISIS leaders so it's fine if they are bombing hospitals, schools and whatnot killing kids in process, those bombing don't count. Those kids don't have big news agencies to support them, they don't have internet and can't share their pictures online so they aren't important.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Have been through this a dozen times in the other threads, so won't repeat myself here (see here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-whats-the-point.215250/page-217#post-18390272 and here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paris-terror-attacks-on-friday-13th.411482/page-56#post-18395116 for my views on the matter).

I'd just add that there are many factors external to Islam itself contributing to the violence emerging from Muslim societies right now, obviously the impact of the West is well-argued for. There is also for example the so-called "youth bulge". The population explosion in the Arab world and elsewhere has not been accompanied by any sort of economic progress, the result has been a rapid growth in unemployment or underemployed young men, always the most destructive element in any society. During the 19th century Europe went through a similar population explosion, the difference was these problem elements could be shipped off to the colonies to terrorize the native and/or take their place. No such option exists for the Islamic world right now.

Other issues include a fight for diminishing resources (linked to above and a major factor in the Syrian Civil War which was preceded by a serious drought in the very rural areas dominated by the jihadists right now) and the family structure in the Arab world which tends to be patriarchal and autocratic (I've experienced this in Christian Arab families personally).

Man, that's an impressive series of posts. Learned a lot reading them. Makes my own interpretation of what's going on seem painfully simplistic by comparison.

 

[redmeister]

All religious texts are full of inconsistencies and contradictions so anyone can interpret them just about any way they like. That's basically the history of religion; you wouldn't think that from the Gospels the Catholic Church could get to burning people at the stake but they did it, somehow.

The issue with Islam is that it was created by a barbaric 7th century warlord in a harsh, unforgiving environment so all those texts contain more than a healthy amount of references to chopping off heads and hands and such which is unfortunate as fanatics will carry those out eagerly. So yeah. It's a religion not much suited to the 21st century, except if you start cherrypicking what you like in the Koran. But I think that's apostasy and punishable by death, right?

This is what annoys me when non Muslim apologists talk about the so called extremists not representing "true Islam". For non believers their religious texts are simply man made from the 7th century and therefore one should expect all the primitive barbaric, misogynistic and homophobic nonsense that's in there. Yet somehow people have got it into their heads that the extremists aren't representing "true Islam" and the heavily secular influenced version of Islam we see practiced by the majority of Muslims is. It makes no sense. You'd expect a man made 7th century religion to be pretty abhorrent, so why insist when we see this it isn't "true Islam?"

It's okay for Muslims to convince themselves by cherry picking as they believe it's true. It goes against their modern morality to adhere to much of what is written, so they have to adapt and "translate" it in a way more in keeping with what is seen a "good" today. But non believers don't need to do that. Why can't we be more honest and read the Quaran etc as a 7th century text written be what today's standards would be seen as primitive barbarians.

I totally understand why Muslims come along and claim you can't take certain passages literally and they are being misinterpreted or that they need to be read in conjunction with other texts or passages etc. That makes sense as they are true believers and want to believe Islam represents good. But why the hell non believers do this is beyond me. There is no getting around the fact that to non believers Islam is simply a 7th century, man made religion and therefore totally unsuited to the 21 century, just as ISIS are. Why pretend your Muslim mate who lives up the street, goes to same gym as you, works a 9 till 5 and has a family, 2 cars and a dog is representative of "true Islam" because he's a nice honest guy? Just because most Muslims are nice people doesn't mean they represent "true Islam." Its the same way that most Christians are nice people, but the vast majority of them are hardly representative of what you read in the Bible. How many Christians fulfill the Law of the Prophets? Virtually none, yet Jesus specifically said they should be obeyed.

All of the Abrahamic religions are full of primitive nonsense. The only people who should be falsely representing them are those indoctrinated into them, as they have an incentive to do so. But non believers need to quit trying to force feed us these false version of the "true" religions, as they don't have a leg to stand on unless they think primitive goat herders were generally speaking liberal, PC bunch.

 

[Attila]

Man, that's an impressive series of posts. Learned a lot reading them. Makes my own interpretation of what's going on seem painfully simplistic by comparison.

@2cents is a fantastic poster. Learned a lot from him.

 

[Sultan]

The recent terrorist attacks in Paris shook up the whole world. One of the most popular opinions circulated was that Islam as a whole is peaceful, however there is a very small violent minority. Personally I'm an Atheist, but I have a close family member who is Muslim and is a very nice person who cannot hurt a fly, but to be fair he is not very religious.

I'm starting to doubt the notion about the peacefulness of Islam, especially among the people who take their religion seriously. I did some research and compiled the following stats:

Number of world's armed conflicts active during 2015: 55
Number of these conflicts involving Islamists: 40
Number of people killed in Islamic conflicts in 2015: 133,400

So 73% of world's armed conflicts in 2015 involve Islamists, usually fights between different factions of Islam. That's a huge number, especially considering that Muslims are only 22% of the world's population.

I found another, even more chilling statistic:
Victims of terrorism during 2015: 6,200
Victims by Islamic terrorists: 6,100

So, all the crazies around the world, including white supremacists, pro-Russian, or pro-Ukrainian rebels, Korean separatists, etc. killed 1.6% of terrorism victims, while Islamists killed 98.4%. In 2015 there were Islamists terrorist attacks in 32 different countries in all corners of the world. It's really hard for me to accept anymore that it is a very small minority causing these problems.

• Hitler - I'm sure you've heard of him, and the number of innocents killed
• Stalin - estimated people killed 20 Million
• Mao Tse Tung - Estimated to have killed 15 Million
• Mussolini - Estimated loss of life 500,000
• President GW Bush policies and embargo is estimated to have killed 500,000 children
• Iraq war has killed approximately 500,000 to a Million people (started by the USA)
• US involvement in wars. Hardly a year has gone by without an involvement in some conflict - I cannot imagine how many killed. I'll just provide a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations
• The first World War killed estimated an 20 Million
• The second World War Killed an estimated 50 Million
• Nagasaki Atomic bombs killed an estimated 200,000
• The conflict in Vietnam killed an estimated 5 Million
• Cambodia almost 3 Million dead

The above were all non-Muslims.

If we're going to just talk about 2015 when Islam was introduced to the world.

Then should should you not mention how many innocents have been killed by allied bombings (non-Muslims) in 2015 in various parts of the world? This will surely skew your figures drastically. Unless those in suits ordering drone attacks, and bombings does not count as terrorising people? Those killed far away and not on our TV screens not count as human beings? I'm pretty sure smart bombs aren't that smart yet to just target terrorists. Can you kindly get some figures prior to 9/11 how many terrorist attacks were carried out by blood-thirsty Muslims on civilians? Oh, Islam did not exist.

Let's be fair with our research.

 

[Tincanalley]

Have been through this a dozen times in the other threads, so won't repeat myself here (see here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-whats-the-point.215250/page-217#post-18390272 and here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paris-terror-attacks-on-friday-13th.411482/page-56#post-18395116 for my views on the matter).

I'd just add that there are many factors external to Islam itself contributing to the violence emerging from Muslim societies right now, obviously the impact of the West is well-argued for. There is also for example the so-called "youth bulge". The population explosion in the Arab world and elsewhere has not been accompanied by any sort of economic progress, the result has been a rapid growth in unemployment or underemployed young men, always the most destructive element in any society. During the 19th century Europe went through a similar population explosion, the difference was these problem elements could be shipped off to the colonies to terrorize the native and/or take their place. No such option exists for the Islamic world right now.

Other issues include a fight for diminishing resources (linked to above and a major factor in the Syrian Civil War which was preceded by a serious drought in the very rural areas dominated by the jihadists right now) and the family structure in the Arab world which tends to be patriarchal and autocratic (I've experienced this in Christian Arab families personally).

Thoughtful @2cents; good post which turns this thread right around. I was about to ask 'how peaceful is Christianity?'. I mean, for me, religion is like alcohol, great, thoroughly enjoyable, brings people together in ways, but definitely needs to be taken in moderation. I think of the creamery men with flat caps who would delve into the back seats of Mass on Sunday for a quick blast of homage, but hurry back to their tractors to get the day job done (even on the Sabbath) before the ceremony was ended.

I see this thread in a way as an extension of the discussion following the confusion and upset caused by the Paris attacks. One can imagine many ways to approach this question; the time we live in is so different to the Judea of Christian Century Zero, the Mohammedan world of Medina, or the era of the Cathars. You can read the Bible, you can read any of the ancient texts, to inform your morality and bring you consolation, but in many ways these texts reflect an ancient world. But in general the true message of the prophets is one of love and acceptance of others. Like many of the great ideologies of the world, it actively pursues nobility and salvation.

But is communism responsible for Stalin? Is Christianity responsible for the excessess of the Spaniards in colonial South America, or the acts of the KKK? How responsible is Islam for the actions of tyrants and extremists? One needs to distinguish an ideology, a system of belief, from those who act in its name. Making this distinction is the first step in defeating extremism. By cherishing our Moslem/Christian/aetheist neighbours, we as a community shatter the polarisation on which the likes of the Paris killers and of tourists on the Russian flight - and indeed virtually ever other type of extremist, religious and political - thrive.

 

[syrian_scholes]

I've always considered it to be a case of power/money/violence hungry people using religion as an excuse to give their actions "ligitimacy" rather than the religion itself being the root cause. An " interpretation" of God's script is the most convenient thing to justify your actions and brainwash daft people into believing you to be right. If it was the religioun itself I imagine we wouldn't have so many peaceful devout Muslims across the globe.

At the same time, I would like to read it myself to say for sure.

Oh just look at Syria for crying out loud, some of the extremisits, admittedly not ISIS, are gaining so much money and power by using the name of Islam, they also steal and kill! I swear this isn't what islam is about.

 

[Tincanalley]

I would be interested to see stats compiled in a similar way detailing the death toll attributed to our all encompassing atheist religion of capitalism - particularly the aggressive capitalist extremism carried out in the third world by western money. I would be very suprised if any ideology could compete with the violence of capitalism. Even the moderate form of worship that I practice no doubt contributes to a huge level of brutality.

I would guess that Islam was positively benign in comparison.

And which - from the perspective of some people at the receiveing end - might seem a Christian enterprise?

 

[MTF]

I would be interested to see stats compiled in a similar way detailing the death toll attributed to our all encompassing atheist religion of capitalism - particularly the aggressive capitalist extremism carried out in the third world by western money. I would be very suprised if any ideology could compete with the violence of capitalism. Even the moderate form of worship that I practice no doubt contributes to a huge level of brutality.

I would guess that Islam was positively benign in comparison.

You mean this death toll?

Or maybe this one (know I'm forcing it but whatever)

Capitalism has this rep in some circles of being the worst thing in the history of mankind, when actually it should rank near the top.

Sorry for off-topic.

 

[Momochiru]

• Hitler - I'm sure you've heard of him, and the number of innocents killed
• Stalin - estimated people killed 20 Million
• Mao Tse Tung - Estimated to have killed 15 Million
• Mussolini - Estimated loss of life 500,000
• President GW Bush policies and embargo is estimated to have killed 500,000 children
• Iraq war has killed approximately 500,000 to a Million people (started by the USA)
• US involvement in wars. Hardly a year has gone by without an involvement in some conflict - I cannot imagine how many killed. I'll just provide a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations
• The first World War killed estimated an 20 Million
• The second World War Killed an estimated 50 Million
• Nagasaki Atomic bombs killed an estimated 200,000
• The conflict in Vietnam killed an estimated 5 Million
• Cambodia almost 3 Million dead

The above were all non-Muslims.

If we're going to just talk about 2015 when Islam was introduced to the world.

Then should should you not mention how many innocents have been killed by allied bombings (non-Muslims) in 2015 in various parts of the world? This will surely skew your figures drastically. Unless those in suits ordering drone attacks, and bombings does not count as terrorising people? Those killed far away and not on our TV screens not count as human beings? I'm pretty sure smart bombs aren't that smart yet to just target terrorists. Can you kindly get some figures prior to 9/11 how many terrorist attacks were carried out by blood-thirsty Muslims on civilians? Oh, Islam did not exist.

Let's be fair with our research.

Your thread doesn't say "how peaceful is Islam in 2015" or the 21st century, or what have you, so if nothing else that clarification was needed.

You are right, the history is full of countless examples of atrocities that have nothing to do with Islam. No one is arguing about that. If, as you suggest, I compile the numbers for the last 100 years, then the ratio for sure would be different. I haven't done so, however, for two reasons:

1. I don't have the time and resources to do it - it took me more than 3 days to compile the numbers just for 2015, sort them by country and involved parties, then research the background of each conflict. There are many cases where in the same county there are multiple conflicts, some are caused by radical Islam, other of completely different nature. For example, I haven't included the March 31 terrorist act in Istanbul in the numbers involving Islam, even if Turkey is Muslim country, because that particular act was caused by the Turkish Marxist–Leninist party - completely different ideology. There was a lot of work involved in order to be able to present creditable numbers. Just for 2015 there were over 300 terrorist acts and 55 ongoing armed conflicts. To do it for the last 100 years would be a huge task.

2. History is fascinating, but for me my main priority is the present and the future. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Musolini, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, etc. are just facts from the past - ugly facts, but more or less irrelevant at the moment, they will have no effect on the future of my kids and grandkids. An Islamic jihadist who can blow himself or herself at any time and place could have a devastating effect. That's the second reason I have focused on the numbers from 2015, and at the current moment radical Islam seems like the biggest threat out there.

 

[LeChuck]

Man kills and has killed from the start of time for any and all reasons, whether they be religion, greed, capitalism, communism, nationalism, or racism. It wasn't too long ago that the 'terrorists' were in Sri Lanka, and before them in Ireland. The violent nature of man is cyclical, and it won't be long before someone else takes the mantle.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Oh just look at Syria for crying out loud, some of the extremisits, admittedly not ISIS, are gaining so much money and power by using the name of Islam, they also steal and kill! I swear this isn't what islam is about.

Aren't you from Syria? Isn't much of the violence there the creation of the west?

And using the name of Islam doesn't mean Islam is in itself wrong. It could be of course but that's not evidence of it. It's a small indicator of the possibility.

 

[RedTiger]

Ahh I see you're an idiot.

Fair enough - My fault for engaging with you.

short and sweet.

 

[prath92]

In 2015 there were terrorist attacks in the following predominantly Islamic countries:
Afghanistan
Bangladesh
Bahrain
Bosna and Herzegovina
Egypt
Iraq
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Mali
Nigeria
Niger
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Syria
Tunisia
Turkey
Yemen

In Bahrain, the attacks are mostly between an oppressed majority sect of the population and a minority sect who are ruling the country. The fight is for rights not for religious supremacy. It's not any different from those wars that existed in Belgium, Sri Lanka and all during the 70s.

 

[naturalized]

You mean this death toll?

Or maybe this one (know I'm forcing it but whatever)

Capitalism has this rep in some circles of being the worst thing in the history of mankind, when actually it should rank near the top.

Sorry for off-topic.

Not to mention the incredible decrease in world poverty singlehandedly due to China's adoption of "socialism with Chinese characteristics" - i.e. full-on robber baron capitalism, saving thousands of lives at least and dramatic increases in standards of living for millions more.

 

[berbatrick]

You mean this death toll?





Capitalism has this rep in some circles of being the worst thing in the history of mankind, when actually it should rank near the top.

Sorry for off-topic.

Keeping it off-topic, here's date from a single case where I know the facts:

Spoiler

The China graph speaks for itself.

Liberalisation and privatisation of the Indian economy began in the mid-80s and 1991 was the big watershed year. I am really struggling to see an improvement. I know that per-capita foodgrain availability has also declined in every single year since 1991, and that it is now at 1960s levels (when the govt made a large intervention in agriculture called the green revolution).

EDIT: even more stark:

Spoiler

http://missinglink.ucsf.edu/lm/russia_guide/Russianhealth2_files/image003.jpg

 

[syrian_scholes]

Aren't you from Syria? Isn't much of the violence there the creation of the west?

And using the name of Islam doesn't mean Islam is in itself wrong. It could be of course but that's not evidence of it. It's a small indicator of the possibility.

I'm a muslim, I'm saying you're write basically just giving you examples of using Islam for their own benefit.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Why are people constantly bringing up the KKK when talking about 'crimes committed in the name of Christianity' vs. ISIS in regards to 'crimes committed in the name of Islam'? Those two don't compare in ideology nor in scale, it's just pointless.

 

[predator]

There's barbaric extracts in every Abrahamic religion. If you're a fundamentalist then your religion will be undoubtedly unpeaceful. Burning infidels and adulterers alive is common in them all right?

Let's face it the above just doesn't fit into present society.

 

[FCBarca]

Embarrassingly prejudiced thread

 

[Mihajlovic]

There's barbaric extracts in every Abrahamic religion. If you're a fundamentalist then your religion will be undoubtedly unpeaceful. Burning infidels and adulterers alive is common in them all right?

Let's face it the above just doesn't fit into present society.

The barbaric extracts mentioned in the Hebrew Bible refer to events which took place 3000 years ago and were limited to a specific place, a specific time, and concerned only specific people. And that's it basically. What you read in those texts today is recorded ancient history.

 

[UweBein]

I'be surprised if there weren't more Muslims killed by predominantly christian states like USA, France, Germany, UK etc. I remember the last time a high ranking german officer decided to bomb a taliban trail, it turned out he killed 142 innocent civilians in Afghanistan. Actually nobody gives a feck about them. Hell, the guy got even promoted after that and he is a general now. How many innocent people only in Iraq and Afghanistan have been killed by the allies? Those acts are not considered and classified as terrorism by ourselves. But the folks over there have every moral right to feel terrorized.

 

[Amar__]

I thought this is interesting for people who want to know what Muslims are really teached in your average European (mostly) Muslim country. This is message from today's Jumu'ah* from all Imams in Bosnia:

Speech Reis-ul-Ulm in the Gazi Husrev-beg our mosque (which are required to read and all the imams / Khatibs at home and abroad)
Sarajevo, 20 November 2015.

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds, Most Gracious, Svemilosnom. We thank him for blessings he bestowed upon us: the life and health, to love and mercy. From Him we seek guidance, forgiveness, grace and protection from evil in ourselves and from the evil in other people. Whom Allah guides to the right path, no one with the times can not be deterred, but whom Allah does not send the right way, no one else can make. I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and I testify that Muhammad is His Prophet. Let Allah's blessings and peace be upon him, to honor his family and all his followers who follow his way clear and pointing to the right and forbid what is evil.
The words of God: "When they are told:" Make not mischief on the earth! "- They Say:" We are peacemakers only "Really? And, indeed, they are causing a mess, but do not perceive. "(Baqarah, 11 - 12)
Brothers and sisters.
Islam is a religion of peace. We Muslims, his followers, we are in constant effort to establish peace in ourselves, in our families and in the society in which we live. Our Muslim name and designation is defined by the word "Peace" and its deepest meaning.
The peace within us and around us is our greatest strength. The words of God:
And the servants of the Merciful are those who walk on the earth in, and when ignorant people ask, say: "Peace be with you!" (Al-Furqan, 63)
In this one verse only understand all the nobility of the faithful, sincere penitent Allah, who even shameless invoke peace. These are the true nobility of the human race.
However, today the call hears poorly. We live in a time of noise caused by the bad guys and imposed.
Brothers and sisters.
On the pulpit of our mosques, as many times before, we talked about the challenges facing that we placed. It is not the first time that the world, and Muslims in it, tested by abuse of our noble faith. Remember, it happened to those who were better than us - the first generation of Muslims. And they were left shocked by the brutality of criminals, who were not afraid of nothing, and they were not afraid of justice and her hands. To them, even the best of Muslims, which our Prophet guaranteed Paradise (h. Osman and h. Ali) were not good Muslims. They killed them!
Today, the violence in the world expands. Suffer many innocent people.
Against this, we raise our voice! We condemn the folly and crimes against the people! We must not be silent and confused when they kill innocent when imposing terror and hatred. Let's not allow that to go by the time that the end justifies the means. Killing innocents can not be justified by any means.
Likewise, we should not have any doubt, that the bad guys do not represent anyone's faith, and especially not to belong to our community of good and peace. Sin is compassionate with them. Also, we can not keep the murderer of innocent people in Gaza and Syria, who do so on behalf of world powers. Unfortunately, the most frequent victims of criminals and those who are against them supposedly fighting, the Muslims. Of the total number of innocent victims in the world, those killed and injured in the last few years, over 85% are Muslims.
Brothers and sisters.
The main goal of our faith is the welfare of the human race! Muslims should fight to protect the life, faith, reason, dignity, offspring and property of every human being. Threaten some of these foundations means threaten humanity.
Generations of Muslims have given their best to build a civilization based on good and understanding. Their generosity, fairness and commitment to God's words have contributed to millions of people find peace in the midst of Islam. There our tradition we must nurture, to keep her predočavati our neighbors and others.
Muslims have the right to remain confused and distracted. A look to me as if we were the force of evil and brutality witnessed surprised and paralyzed. The inspiration we need to look where we always are. Therefore, let us turn to the Prophet, his timely and beneficent instruction: "When you see evil, let him forcibly stop, and whoever is not able to let it publicly condemn or let it in the heart despised, denied and rejected."
I call on the authorities to forcibly stop those who spread hatred and invoke terror. I invite learned men to publicly oppose evil, to explain and condemn. Now we need to all stand up and not allow ourselves to evil wins. Do not allow fear to master our senses. Let us do everything in our power to make him stand up.
I call on all people of good will to their reckless reaction to the misdeeds of criminals do not help their goals. Do not allow them to stigmatize our entire community. They are counting on it.
I invite young people to protect and preserve their faith and community! You belong to her, even more than we older. Show your pride and dignity and, as our ancestors knew know to defend our values, do ye wisely, patiently and resolutely.
I urge all who think that violence and terror can be solved by injustice, their teachers, inspirers, organizers and sponsors to their senses, repent and leave the path and return to the fold of Jamaat and the middle way.
Brothers and sisters.
In everything we do, let us be the guiding words of our Lord:
If someone wants to size - and to Allah is all sizes! To Him rise beautiful words, and the good work he receives. And those who have evil inclination a grievous penalty, and their plan, it shall fruitless. (Fatir, 10)
Our Lord.
Help us in our quest for the good and peace reign among men.
Spread Light Your faith in our hearts! Shine upon him and those who are ignorant and misguided.
Make that your paths strongly and resolutely walk, dignified way and, guided jet Your boundless mercy.
Enter the peace among us. Banish from our hearts fears and give us the strength to defend ourselves from the evil of our enemies.
Our Lord, forgive us our sins and have mercy on us. Thy mercy to hope and pray for her.
Amin!

I did a quick google translate from Bosnian, so it's not that fluent and mistakes are possible, but I think it's readable and quite easy to understand what "Muslim teachers" really learn people, at least here, and I believe in other countries too.

Btw, Imam at my place added lots of his own beautiful messages too, criticiseing lots of people who were not following the usual rules Muslims here follow for years, and how everyone who follows those new ideologies has nothing to do with Islam, and that those don't belong to this mosque.
He also spent a lot of time talking about importance of education, challenging the people to challenge each other in knowledge in every scientific field, to learn their kids that education is most important, and not just Islamic, but that they should explore all fields of knowledge, which I thought was the most important message.


*Jumu'ah is probably most important prayer for Muslims(aside from 5 daily prayers), and apart from usual prayer, even those who aren't that religious(me) attend Jumu'ah, at least in Bosnia.

 

[Mihajlovic]

I thought this is interesting for people who want to know what Muslims are really teached in your average European (mostly) Muslim country. This is message from today's Jumu'ah* from all Imams in Bosnia:



I did a quick google translate from Bosnian, so it's not that fluent and mistakes are possible, but I think it's readable and quite easy to understand what "Muslim teachers" really learn people, at least here, and I believe in other countries too.

Btw, Imam at my place added lots of his own beautiful messages too, criticiseing lots of people who were not following the usual rules Muslims here follow for years, and how everyone who follows those new ideologies has nothing to do with Islam, and that those don't belong to this mosque.
He also spent a lot of time talking about importance of education, challenging the people to challenge each other in knowledge in every scientific field, to learn their kids that education is most important, and not just Islamic, but that they should explore all fields of knowledge, which I thought was the most important message.


*Jumu'ah is probably most important prayer for Muslims(aside from 5 daily prayers), and apart from usual prayer, even those who aren't that religious(me) attend Jumu'ah, at least in Bosnia.

A timely sermon delivered as a reaction to the murder of two Bosnian soldiers by another Bosnian extremist in Sarajevo?

 

[Amar__]

A timely sermon delivered as a reaction to the murder of two Bosnian soldiers by another Bosnian extremist in Sarajevo?

No, it's reaction to Paris and other terrorism around the world in recent week(on Mondays all prayers were delayed 5 mins for Paris also) because that guy by the looks of it wasn't religious at all, but drug addict and a psychopath.

 

[adexkola]

Embarrassingly prejudiced thread

Really, really embarrassing.

 

[Akshay]

Liberalisation and privatisation of the Indian economy began in the mid-80s and 1991 was the big watershed year. I am really struggling to see an improvement. I know that per-capita foodgrain availability has also declined in every single year since 1991, and that it is now at 1960s levels (when the govt made a large intervention in agriculture called the green revolution).

Not entirely a fair point given that the liberalisation and privatisation policies have mostly been in the service sector, followed by some reform in manufacturing followed by almost no change in rural agriculture. The population continues to grow while the technology and organization of agriculture has stood virtually still. It's no surprise the per-capita food availability has gone down.

The green revolution is also overestimated. It did increase total yield, but there were several stages of policy implementation and the first few stages didn't have much impact at all. Its eventual success was arguably as much a product of changing circumstances in rural India as govt policy. Also, its led to a lot of environmental problems down the line such as overtaxed land eventually becoming infertile.

India's an excellent example of how a country that holds so much promise in terms of natural resources can struggle given bad economic organization over several decades. The economy is still nowhere near the standards of freedom that would be termed a capitalist society in the West.

 

[MTF]

Really, really embarrassing.

Muhammad was a conquering general. Why can't we talk about it? Can't that be a complicated issue? It doesn't make muslims unpeaceful by default... but the example is right there. One reason I like the caf is that these things can be talked about, argued for and against, without hostility. Say this in the general populace and you'll be flamed.

(Not passing judgement on Muhammad himself, in those times being a conqueror was pretty much a good thing. But he's unique among prophets afaik)

 

[LeChuck]

Muhammad was a conquering general. Why can't we talk about it? Can't that be a complicated issue? It doesn't make muslims unpeaceful by default... but the example is right there. One reason I like the caf is that these things can be talked about, argued for and against, without hostility. Say this in the general populace and you'll be flamed.

(Not passing judgement on Muhammad himself, in those times being a conqueror was pretty much a good thing. But he's unique among prophets afaik)

What did he conquer? (Mecca aside, but there's caveats to his 'conquering' of Mecca).

 

[MTF]

What did he conquer? (Mecca aside, but there's caveats to his 'conquering' of Mecca).

That he mainly conquered one city doesn't make him a conqueror? I'm not condemning him. I mostly read Alexander's and Caesar's history with slight admiration, and those are conquerors too. But if you're going to say Muhammad wasn't a warrior, and a successful one as that, then you're just telling a lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

 

[LeChuck]

That he mainly conquered one city doesn't make him a conqueror? I'm not condemning him. I mostly read Alexander's and Caesar's history with slight admiration, and those are conquerors too. But if you're going to say Muhammad wasn't a warrior, and a successful one as that, then you're just telling a lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

I see expeditions, but don't really see any conquering.

"overcome and take control of (a place or people) by military force." = Conquering.

 

[VP]

The modus operandi for ISIS, Boko, Al Shabab et al is the targeted, brutal execution of non Sunni muslims. Even if we account for all the fecked up geopolitics and economics, there is a clear religious aspect to all this. It's clearly a wrong interpretation but is there a way to prevent incorrect interpretation? I don't know.

One thing I'd add, and this is purely anecdotal, is that even moderate Muslims seem overly sensitive about their religion. As an obvious example, there's the whole cartoon thing but beyond that there's also a bit of a victim complex, and while in many cases this is justified, it can reach Liverpool fans-esque levels of delusion. As an example, I have a Pakistani friend who grew up abroad in a life of luxury and is a perfectly reasonable guy but will blame India for every single issue happening in Pakistan and Israel/US for everything in the Middle East - going as far as equating ISIS to the Arabic version of Israel.

I feel lot of this comes from the concept of Ummah which I understand - and this is a very limited understanding, so happy to be corrected - as the nation of Islam and presumably explains why Muslims all over the world empathize with the Palestinian cause. But I feel this is a dangerous concept and places lives of Muslims over other non-believers, often closer to home, and in its extreme manifestation can lead to things like ISIS.

 

[Fearless]

Embarrassingly prejudiced thread

Bollox. Your just trying to shut down debate on a very very critical issue.

 

[Fully Fledged]

The recent terrorist attacks in Paris shook up the whole world. One of the most popular opinions circulated was that Islam as a whole is peaceful, however there is a very small violent minority. Personally I'm an Atheist, but I have a close family member who is Muslim and is a very nice person who cannot hurt a fly, but to be fair he is not very religious.

I'm starting to doubt the notion about the peacefulness of Islam, especially among the people who take their religion seriously. I did some research and compiled the following stats:

Number of world's armed conflicts active during 2015: 55
Number of these conflicts involving Islamists: 40
Number of people killed in Islamic conflicts in 2015: 133,400

So 73% of world's armed conflicts in 2015 involve Islamists, usually fights between different factions of Islam. That's a huge number, especially considering that Muslims are only 22% of the world's population.

I found another, even more chilling statistic:
Victims of terrorism during 2015: 6,200
Victims by Islamic terrorists: 6,100

So, all the crazies around the world, including white supremacists, pro-Russian, or pro-Ukrainian rebels, Korean separatists, etc. killed 1.6% of terrorism victims, while Islamists killed 98.4%. In 2015 there were Islamists terrorist attacks in 32 different countries in all corners of the world. It's really hard for me to accept anymore that it is a very small minority causing these problems.

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world in 2015. Several hundred thousand follow and act on a radicalised view of the faith while 1.599 billion of them live a peaceful existence. Blaming 22% of the worlds population for the actions of less than 1% of their population is some what silly.

 

[Raoul]

In 2015 there were terrorist attacks in the following predominantly Islamic countries:
Afghanistan
Bangladesh
Bahrain
Bosna and Herzegovina
Egypt
Iraq
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Mali
Nigeria
Niger
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Syria
Tunisia
Turkey
Yemen

What's your theory on this ?

 

[Eboue]

No less peaceful than the 'crusaders' or those holding the inquisitions

I don't know if you've noticed but that was centuries ago.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world in 2015. Several hundred thousand follow and act on a radicalised view of the faith while 1.599 billion of them live a peaceful existence. Blaming 22% of the worlds population for the actions of less than 1% of their population is some what silly.

Why do people keep saying this? Nobody is blaming moderate Muslims for the actions of extremists. That would be incredibly unfair and I haven't seen it happening, even in the most right-wing Islamophobic media. Yet we're still seeing these memes doing the rounds about how blaming all Muslims for jihadists is like blaming all Christians for KKK. That's a classic straw man argument. The Muslim people are not being blamed for what's happened, it's their religion that is under scrutiny (specifically its potential to be used to incite violence and intolerance) not the people themselves.