How peaceful is Islam?

I know that Monarch is also the head of Church, but didn't know that UK isn't a secular country. Nutters, the lot of them!

The country is still effectively secular, but the existence of an established church makes it not entirely secular. However, the Reformation helped lead to the separation of church and state in much of Western Europe and Luther had a direct impact on the US Constitution's 1st Amendment. Prior to the Reformation, Catholic kings nominally owed their allegiance to the Pope, who could depose them and crowned kings from time to time. It's one of the reasons that Napoleon crowning himself before the Pope could do it was noteworthy.

The US government (and French) itself is secular while the British government isn't.

The law had to be changed to allow Charles to accede to the throne despite marrying a Catholic.
 
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I saw this post on Facebook. Interesting words out of the mouth of this Palestinian mother.
Edit: Summary of the video as posted on youtube:
from Israel's Voice:
This Palestinian mother was shown such kindness by Jews when her young son was treated, free of charge, for his heart problem in an Israeli hospital. She freely acknowledges this, but she still hopes that her child will grow up to be a martyr. This video is a rare look into the mind of someone who worships death and destruction. She describes the difference between her culture and all of Western society perfectly when she explains that for her people life is meaningless.



That's sick
 
Ok, so you'd prefer to be ignorant. Fair enough.

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know 'the truth' without doing any reading into the subject material.
Not believeing the served crap != prefering to be ignorant. And while I admit that I am far from the most knowledgable person when it comes to religion (don't have any formal education in any religion or history of religion) I have read some stuff for all the three Abrahamic religions.

What I am saying is: logically speaking, what was the reason for Muhammad to marry a girl 40 years his junior? None. Unless you add, that she was the daughter of a powerful clan leader who was also Muhammad's best friend. Then, the act sounds reasonable (based on the standards of that time). It was also at a time when Muhammad was getting persecuted more than ever, so it was a good way of completely securing Abu-Bekr friendship and loyalty. It is very likely, that it might have helped Abu-Bekr to become the first caliph of Islam, 15 years later.

Btw, I can play the last line too. I am sure you are intelligent enough to not think at all, but believe what is served. For example, do you believe that in Muhammad's childhood, 2 angels stopped him, removed his heart, purified it and put it back in the place, purifying Muhammad and making him unable to do sin. And of course, that memory was also removed from Muhammad, but somehow it made its way in Hadith.
 
Read stuff written decades- if not centuries - later, by people who were biased. Victor writes history etc etc.

I prefer the 'when it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then probably it is a duck'. Beause really, it is between paedophilia and royal marriage. And considering that I am kind and nice, I give to him the benefit of the doubt and call it a royal marriage. I doubt that there is an another reason bar those two, for a 53 years old man to marry a 9 years old woman.

Basically, from what I have understood reading your posts here(and I read quite lot of them), you know lot about religions(not just about Islam), but from everything you read, you mostly interpreted bad things from holy books and took them as a facts, and mixed them with bad things from some other books/piece of history/proofs about it and then you made a whole image about that religion, which obviously is always going to turn up bad with that fashion, all while wondering how religious people believe stuff they believe reading "that crap" from their holy books. Your view is really weird.

It seems like you first firmly decided that religion in general is crap, and then you probably wanted to convince yourself that you are right so you studied those religions with intent to portray them to yourself as ridiculous.

You might find it funny, but it really looks like that reading your posts here.
 
Basically, from what I have understood reading your posts here(and I read quite lot of them), you know lot about religions(not just about Islam), but from everything you read, you mostly interpreted bad things from holy books and took them as a facts, and mixed them with bad things from some other books/piece of history/proofs about it and then you made a whole image about that religion, which obviously is always going to turn up bad with that fashion, all while wondering how religious people believe stuff they believe reading "that crap" from their holy books. Your view is really weird.

It seems like you first firmly decided that religion in general is crap, and then you probably wanted to convince yourself that you are right so you studied those religions with intent to portray them to yourself as ridiculous.

You might find it funny, but it really looks like that reading your posts here.
That is the problem. Quran is supposed to be the perfect book and there shouldn't be bad things (or scientifically inaccuracies there). Because then, it isn't a perfect book, and so not the book of God. Quran is far more vulnerable in that aspect than for example Tora, Bible or Hadith considering that they might well be more poitical weapons rather than the truth. And sure, something there being nonsense, doesn't make the book entirely void. But not in Quran though, a single nonsense verse makes the entire Quran void.

In reality, my experience is completely different. I was a bit religious as a teen (not very much though, but still did the basic stuff like fasting and occasionally praying), I probably still remember 10+ surahs. On uni I was pretty much agnostic, and for the last few years atheist.

The problem is that the more I read about religion, the less inclined to believe it I be. There is no doubt in my mind that its original motivation was political power. I mean, how would anyone explain that there are 84 verses of Quran that were revealed in regard to Abu Jahl. That is more than 1 percent of the book which is supposed to be for the entire manking, for all times. But then, it uses 84 verses to talk bad for a guy who didn't like Muhammad.

Or the fact that as Uzz said, there were things that Muhammad was allowed to do, but not the others. That isn't fair, right?

Or that the first wife of Muhammad was a girl 15 years his senior, who had been married twice and had already 6 kids. How it does make sense for Muhammad to marry her? Well, it makes a lot of sense if she is the richest person in that part of the world.

This is stuff, that wouldn't look nice on anyone. But because it is religion, well it is okay. But it is not, if you don't follow that religion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Muhammad was a Genghis Khan type of figure. Likely he was a nice person, based on that time standards. There are a lot of good stuff from him. Be it political-economical (like starting the unification of Arabs), to keeping the hygiene, to moral rules. But there are a lot of bad stuff for him too, which gets either denied, contred with some apologistic behavior (like is happening in this thread when it comes to Aysha) or 'God ordered it'.

I am afraid that 'God ordering it' won't satisy people who aren't religious. I mean after all, that is exactly what ISIS is doing, and surely we don't believe them.

Btw: I think that Abraham was a schyzophren for almost killing his son (I might share a name with him based on what version we are supposed to believe) because he heard voices. People go to jail for that shit, nowadays.
 
And eleven/twelve year old kids fought war back then, you cant just take age as an arbitrary number. You have to consider at which age the kids were considered adults back then.



Thats not really true though, historically kids were given more responsibility at an earlier age compared to now. Alexandre was 17 when he conquered half the world, I wouldnt really call that abuse.

DIfferent times had a different age of maturity.
Kids at that age have to be forced and they were killed faster than an adult, using a sword requires a lot of strength after a few minutes, can you see an eleven year old facing an adult with a bigger sword and shield and crashing at same time, one weighting at least twice ? At 17 Pele won a World Cup but I bet you no 11 or 12 will. I was already 5'9" at 17 and I was stronger than I'm now at 52.
 
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Kids at that age have to be forced and they were killed faster than an adult, using a sword requires a lot of strength after a few minutes, can you see an eleven year old facing an adult with a bigger sword and shield and crashing at same time, one weighting at least twice ?

Amazing, isn't it? :lol:

There's absolutely no credible evidence that using boys as soldiers was a commonplace military practice in the ancient world. None. China had about 6 out of the 10 bloodiest conflicts throughout history, you'd think they would do that. Old geezers and women are brought to the front line before children.

In the odd instances it did happen, it was pure and simple coercion. You'd have to be batshit crazy or in this case, scraping the barrels for any kind of excuse for Mohammed's behaviour, to believe otherwise.
 
Ok, so you'd prefer to be ignorant. Fair enough.

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know 'the truth' without doing any reading into the subject material.

If one side in any debate should be calling the other side ignorant, it's probably not the side defending a 53 year old marrying a 9 year old.
 
That is the problem. Quran is supposed to be the perfect book and there shouldn't be bad things (or scientifically inaccuracies there). Because then, it isn't a perfect book, and so not the book of God. Quran is far more vulnerable in that aspect than for example Tora, Bible or Hadith considering that they might well be more poitical weapons rather than the truth. And sure, something there being nonsense, doesn't make the book entirely void. But not in Quran though, a single nonsense verse makes the entire Quran void.

In reality, my experience is completely different. I was a bit religious as a teen (not very much though, but still did the basic stuff like fasting and occasionally praying), I probably still remember 10+ surahs. On uni I was pretty much agnostic, and for the last few years atheist.

The problem is that the more I read about religion, the less inclined to believe it I be. There is no doubt in my mind that its original motivation was political power. I mean, how would anyone explain that there are 84 verses of Quran that were revealed in regard to Abu Jahl. That is more than 1 percent of the book which is supposed to be for the entire manking, for all times. But then, it uses 84 verses to talk bad for a guy who didn't like Muhammad.

Or the fact that as Uzz said, there were things that Muhammad was allowed to do, but not the others. That isn't fair, right?

Or that the first wife of Muhammad was a girl 15 years his senior, who had been married twice and had already 6 kids. How it does make sense for Muhammad to marry her? Well, it makes a lot of sense if she is the richest person in that part of the world.

This is stuff, that wouldn't look nice on anyone. But because it is religion, well it is okay. But it is not, if you don't follow that religion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Muhammad was a Genghis Khan type of figure. Likely he was a nice person, based on that time standards. There are a lot of good stuff from him. Be it political-economical (like starting the unification of Arabs), to keeping the hygiene, to moral rules. But there are a lot of bad stuff for him too, which gets either denied, contred with some apologistic behavior (like is happening in this thread when it comes to Aysha) or 'God ordered it'.

I am afraid that 'God ordering it' won't satisy people who aren't religious. I mean after all, that is exactly what ISIS is doing, and surely we don't believe them.

Btw: I think that Abraham was a schyzophren for almost killing his son (I might share a name with him based on what version we are supposed to believe) because he heard voices. People go to jail for that shit, nowadays.
I agree with you. That's probably how it was. If tomorrow someone tells you that they heard the voice of god and start telling you how to live your live you will think they are either hallucinating, because of mental illness or drugs, or lying and trying to manipulate you. Back in the day people were much more gullible.
 
Excellent interview with Muhammad Syed, president of Ex-Muslims of North America. He discusses the question of the OP at length.

He also gives the best answer I have yet heard how to fight Islam. The interview has an unexpected positive ending.



If after watching you agree that what his organization is doing is extremely important, you might consider making a donation.
 
Excellent interview with Muhammad Syed, president of Ex-Muslims of North America. He discusses the question of the OP at length.

He also gives the best answer I have yet heard how to fight Islam. The interview has an unexpected positive ending.



If after watching you agree that what his organization is doing is extremely important, you might consider making a donation.


..
 

His solution is: spread atheism. Our most powerful weapon is that we have the better ideas. Good ideas do influence people. That is where we have to fight them. Internet is a great way because most Muslim countries don't block it. (He also says that we also should block funding of the radicals from Iran and Saudi Arabia).

He is spreading atheism by supporting Muslims who want to leave their religion. Those who do leave often influence other Muslims as well. He says that only two years ago the attitude among Muslims was that atheism is a western phenomenon. Now Muslims are discussing what they call "the problem of atheism within Muslim communities".

But if you are interested, just listen to him.
 
Google Aurangzeb please.

Ah, Aurangzeb. Let's discuss Aurangzeb. I've been meaning to come back to this post, but work commitments have been strenuous, but now I have time.

As always - context is crucial here. What we need to bear in mind here is that Aurangzeb was a very intelligent man, and he grew up in the time of great decadence and indulgence, probably best exemplified when Shah Jahan built the Taj Mahal, which is just a really really ornate mausoleum. Anyway, with that in mind, when the Baburs came to the subcontinent in the 1500s, the resulting Mughal empire was one of the richest and most wealthiest. So, understandably, he was afforded the best in education, but grew up with all this wealth and unnecessary spending, which essentially, shaped his outlook on the world. He was well versed in Islamic literature, and knew Islamic sciences really well, too. He spoke 4+ languages as well. It's important to acknowledge his intelligence here. When he came into power, armed with his knowledge, and growing up in that environment, he wanted to bring the empire back to a more Islamic governance, which essentially doesn't have extravagant displays of wealth, and rules acknowledging that the only supreme being / king is God himself. I mean, Akbar regularly incorporated non Islamic beliefs into his governance, and Shah Jahan did the Taj Mahal, so he didn't want to follow that same route. By all accounts, he'd regularly clash with Shah Jahan about these things. Akbar, for example, would regularly conduct the stranger esoteric practices done by Sufis as well, which he disagreed with. Anyway, the reason this background is important is that he was regimented to everything he didn't disagree with whether it be to his forefathers, or other religions. It's worth keeping that in mind. Anyway, on a tangent, he helped compile the Fatawa e Alamgiri, which is a good book on jurisprudence. He abolished prostitution, alcoholism, and gambling as well, and lived a very simple and non extravagant life.

Now - with your post, you are insinuating that he was marginalizing, or abusing Hindus and Sikhs (for the sake of religion), which I disagree with. As mentioned earlier, context is crucial. He employed many Hindus & Sikhs in his royal court as officials and advisers, and some historians say more than Akbar (who is thought of as the best out of the lot). So, he can't have been prejudiced to employ them in such a position. And while I agree, history shows him as intolerant as he destroyed Hindu and Sikh temples, in the 17th centuries, these weren't just places of worship - they were political centres. And this is a sign of him consolidating his power. I'm not saying it's right, but it shouldn't be a sign of religious intolerance, more of a dictator forcing his will, in a way. I mean, there are many examples of temples being built in his reign, if he was truly bigoted against those religions, these would have been destroyed, and on top he would have destroyed every place of worship, not just the political ones. Here's the man himself (no not the Modi lover, but Aurangzeb):

“According to the Shariah [Islamic law], and the exalted creed, it has been established that ancient temples should not be torn down.”

Anyway, as I was saying - they weren't just places to pray, they were considered state property, and the pundits etc in charge were essentially civil servants. So, any rally or anti - govt feeling they may want to arise would happen in a temple. When seeking to get the support of Hindus in a particular area, Mughal emperors (and even Hindu kings in non-Mughal areas) would rely on the priests to rally the local population through the temple. So when a temple would be destroyed, it would be for a political reason, not a religious one. He knew the way to strike a blow to his political enemies would be to destroy their central meeting place, and the one place that would connect them all. So any rebellion against his central authority, he'd go straight to destroy their meeting / political centre. Now, he never destroyed mosques for this reason because mosques never doubled up as a political centre or a meeting place for that type of thing.

I've rambled on too much. Tl;dr - people do what they want to hold onto power, irregardless of religion.
 
@The Man Himself

Actually, yea - the Hindus initially looked down on the Muslims in the subcontinent as they did lower caste members of society, as the religion of Islam obliterated the caste system. Lower caste members of the old faith would be equals in their new faith. The natural repercussion to this is that the Hindu people still entrenched in their caste system wouldn't accept the person beneath them now being given status and identity. This is why the religion appealed to so many in the region and why it spread so fast. It never got round to outnumbering Hinduism, but it caught on pretty fast. And there was some definite elitism.

As for flourishing side by side - I'd suggest you read the life of Akbar, how the book / idea Din e Ilahi came about and the courts he used to hold. This guy was pretty pluralistic, and he'd invite Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim scholars to discuss and debate. This type of 'new age thinking' can only really take foot in a cosmopolitan and progressive society, and if that isn't a indication of two cultures and religions flourishing side by side, I'm not sure what is. Furthermore, the commerce of the people around this time increased to new frontiers, and they opened up new trade routes to the Malay region. They accumulated a shedload of wealth under the Mughal rule, all of these instances suggest that the southern part of the subcontinent was a pretty progressive compatible society.

And it's surprising you talk about colonialism so fondly when the British East India Company caused one of the worst famines (>10m deaths) to date, and subjugated and divided people that used to be neighbours, and caused pillaged the land. I mean, the Queen is wearing her token of India right now, and you think that's a good thing.

Edit: And I'm not ignoring your part on the Khiljis, it's just I'd class them as more Central Asian as opposed to the subcontinent (even though they had a base in Delhi etc). I perhaps could have made that clearer in my initial post.
 
I see the bunch that shot dead the Russian pilot in his parachute were chanting 'god is great'. I think most armies throughout history have needed reassurance that god is on their side, but with islam it seems to be the whole point.
 
@The Man Himself

Actually, yea - the Hindus initially looked down on the Muslims in the subcontinent as they did lower caste members of society, as the religion of Islam obliterated the caste system. Lower caste members of the old faith would be equals in their new faith. The natural repercussion to this is that the Hindu people still entrenched in their caste system wouldn't accept the person beneath them now being given status and identity. This is why the religion appealed to so many in the region and why it spread so fast. It never got round to outnumbering Hinduism, but it caught on pretty fast. And there was some definite elitism.

As for flourishing side by side - I'd suggest you read the life of Akbar, how the book / idea Din e Ilahi came about and the courts he used to hold. This guy was pretty pluralistic, and he'd invite Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim scholars to discuss and debate. This type of 'new age thinking' can only really take foot in a cosmopolitan and progressive society, and if that isn't a indication of two cultures and religions flourishing side by side, I'm not sure what is. Furthermore, the commerce of the people around this time increased to new frontiers, and they opened up new trade routes to the Malay region. They accumulated a shedload of wealth under the Mughal rule, all of these instances suggest that the southern part of the subcontinent was a pretty progressive compatible society.

And it's surprising you talk about colonialism so fondly when the British East India Company caused one of the worst famines (>10m deaths) to date, and subjugated and divided people that used to be neighbours, and caused pillaged the land. I mean, the Queen is wearing her token of India right now, and you think that's a good thing.

Edit: And I'm not ignoring your part on the Khiljis, it's just I'd class them as more Central Asian as opposed to the subcontinent (even though they had a base in Delhi etc). I perhaps could have made that clearer in my initial post.
First paragraph is a blatant lie. The caste system problem was not at all related to Islam and it is fact twisting nonsense to say that they obliterated caste system. Islamic rulers only did forcrible conversions and oppressed all non Muslims. There are lots of literature available about this. Read better than lying.

I had very well explained on flourishing side-by-side point. No it did not happen. Only difference between Akbar was he was less barbaric than some other well known rulers. The wealth in his era increased but that doesn't mean everyone flourished. As I mentioned, if it is just comparison, then Mughal compared to Khiljis, Ghazni earlier or some Afghans later were less cruel and barbaric and there were occasions when Marathas supported Mughal empire against some external forces but it will be very wrong to classify Mughals as good in any case. Aurangjeb who was Mughal's king for long long time is example of their true nature.
Only thing is conversions etc came down in that era as they were smarter and wanted to use local strength, knowledge, wealth better than just destroying it like others.

Eh? I am talking fondly of Colonialism? Do you even read properly? My point was that cherry picking few good things from Mughal era and terming them good rulers will be like absolving British of their cruelty by picking few good things their rule brought about. Which British historians and some people do and is wrong. Search and view Shashi Tharoor's speech at Oxford on this from few months ago.

Khiljis or Ghazni or Mughal or others. All were barbaric in varying amounts and it was the worst era in subcontinent history there is no two ways about it. Subcontinent had flourished A LOT before Islamic invaders. Except very few Islamic rulers who had more sense to be civil(compared to others), it was all very bad.
 
Aurangzeb was among the worst of Islamic rulers, nature wise and atrocities wise. He many times torn down temples. Was he intelligent in the sense of ruling? Yes and No. Yes because he did use some local knowledge and wealth than destroying everything. No because even after his protracted war with Marathas, he could never defeat them fully and in the end barely survived when he gave up and was going away. In the process he wasted incalculable human strength, wealth and other resources. His kingdom was a moving town with 30 mile periphery. Read on that just how much he needed to spend to maintain that!! Just stupid on his part. Maybe it was because he was always worried about Marathas. There are multiple examples of his cruelty as well. In the end, he died somewhat a broken man per some historical accounts, confessing to his son that he has been alone and doesn't know what he did and why(I am paraphrasing).
 
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Ah, Aurangzeb. Let's discuss Aurangzeb. I've been meaning to come back to this post, but work commitments have been strenuous, but now I have time.

As always - context is crucial here. What we need to bear in mind here is that Aurangzeb was a very intelligent man, and he grew up in the time of great decadence and indulgence, probably best exemplified when Shah Jahan built the Taj Mahal, which is just a really really ornate mausoleum. Anyway, with that in mind, when the Baburs came to the subcontinent in the 1500s, the resulting Mughal empire was one of the richest and most wealthiest. So, understandably, he was afforded the best in education, but grew up with all this wealth and unnecessary spending, which essentially, shaped his outlook on the world. He was well versed in Islamic literature, and knew Islamic sciences really well, too. He spoke 4+ languages as well. It's important to acknowledge his intelligence here. When he came into power, armed with his knowledge, and growing up in that environment, he wanted to bring the empire back to a more Islamic governance, which essentially doesn't have extravagant displays of wealth, and rules acknowledging that the only supreme being / king is God himself. I mean, Akbar regularly incorporated non Islamic beliefs into his governance, and Shah Jahan did the Taj Mahal, so he didn't want to follow that same route. By all accounts, he'd regularly clash with Shah Jahan about these things. Akbar, for example, would regularly conduct the stranger esoteric practices done by Sufis as well, which he disagreed with. Anyway, the reason this background is important is that he was regimented to everything he didn't disagree with whether it be to his forefathers, or other religions. It's worth keeping that in mind. Anyway, on a tangent, he helped compile the Fatawa e Alamgiri, which is a good book on jurisprudence. He abolished prostitution, alcoholism, and gambling as well, and lived a very simple and non extravagant life.

Now - with your post, you are insinuating that he was marginalizing, or abusing Hindus and Sikhs (for the sake of religion), which I disagree with. As mentioned earlier, context is crucial. He employed many Hindus & Sikhs in his royal court as officials and advisers, and some historians say more than Akbar (who is thought of as the best out of the lot). So, he can't have been prejudiced to employ them in such a position. And while I agree, history shows him as intolerant as he destroyed Hindu and Sikh temples, in the 17th centuries, these weren't just places of worship - they were political centres. And this is a sign of him consolidating his power. I'm not saying it's right, but it shouldn't be a sign of religious intolerance, more of a dictator forcing his will, in a way. I mean, there are many examples of temples being built in his reign, if he was truly bigoted against those religions, these would have been destroyed, and on top he would have destroyed every place of worship, not just the political ones. Here's the man himself (no not the Modi lover, but Aurangzeb):



Anyway, as I was saying - they weren't just places to pray, they were considered state property, and the pundits etc in charge were essentially civil servants. So, any rally or anti - govt feeling they may want to arise would happen in a temple. When seeking to get the support of Hindus in a particular area, Mughal emperors (and even Hindu kings in non-Mughal areas) would rely on the priests to rally the local population through the temple. So when a temple would be destroyed, it would be for a political reason, not a religious one. He knew the way to strike a blow to his political enemies would be to destroy their central meeting place, and the one place that would connect them all. So any rebellion against his central authority, he'd go straight to destroy their meeting / political centre. Now, he never destroyed mosques for this reason because mosques never doubled up as a political centre or a meeting place for that type of thing.

I've rambled on too much. Tl;dr - people do what they want to hold onto power, irregardless of religion.

For you to defend Aurangzeb and completely take away the religion part from his intentions just highlights what kind of a person you are and how much biased you actually are. I'm done arguing with you, I'd feel pity for you to live in such a blinkered world but then you seem pretty happy about, so best of luck!
 
The biggest example of Aurangzeb's cruelty was when he had captured Shivaji's son, Sambhaji, he kept forcing him to convert to Islam, tortured him very badly and when Sambhaji still refused he killed him by cutting him to pieces. ISIS would be proud of such Islamic Kings. Apart from cruelty, this particular act proved not so smart as it brought together Marathas again with vigour, who were faltering a bit after Shivaji's untimely death due to an illness. Torturous killing of Sambhaji in a way started beginning of end for Aurangzeb and though it took time for his vast empire to weaken, it gave Maratha the required impetus. Aurangzeb also miscalculated and underrated Marathas after Shivaji and Sambhaji and thought that this means Marathas have no one to lead and whole region is his. It backfired.
 
The issue with Islam isn't so much the religion itself, but rather the circumstances of the religion currently.

At one point, Islam was the progressive, tolerant, enlightened and forward thinking religion (for 10-11th century standards) while Christianity was the radicalized militant kid on the block looking to get even.

It's a bit of a complex situation but I will try to explain it as best as my education in history will allow me to.

The primary issue is the issue of secularization. If you look at the Bible (old and new) and the Koran, they both have some very dark, and by modern standards, evil forms of justice in them. What's the difference? We in the west for the most part don't take that stuff in the bible seriously anymore. In the Islamic world they do? Why? Secularization. Through the renaissance and the enlightenment the Christian World embarked on a period of secularization, to the point now where while Christianity is the dominant religion, it has absolutely no bearing on the political, or justice systems of the Western democratic world.

So what happened? Why did the Christian world in the 10th and 11th centuries arguably at its most militant and radicalized levels turn about face and move to a less radicalized version which ultimately led to secularization while the Islamic world (speaking primarily about the middle-east here) went in largely the opposite direction from their own point of greatest tolerance?

Simply put, general prosperity. Radicalization occurs when people are struggling to make ends meet. Look no further than Germany in the interwar period. It took a about a decade for radical militarism to take hold in Germany. It happened very rapidly in Germany, and that was a predominantly Christian state. Religious values don't preclude this sort of thing from happening.

So what happened with the Islamic world? Well let's blame the Portuguese first! I'm kidding of course, but the Portuguese were the first in a long line of European naval powers that took a large portion of trade away from the great Islamic land empires (Ottomans and Mughals) starting at the very tail end of the 15th century. The Middle-East owed its prosperity to that East to West trade from China via the Silkroad and its tributaries trade routes. One of the most important of these was the India Ocean trade hub and the Portuguese and later Europeans asserted domination over these areas, diverting huge chunks of trade from the Islamic world.

Before we go further, let me just say, I firmly believe in "all is fair in love and war" and this isn't an apologist account. I apologize for nothing, but we can be honest about what did happen and why it happened to the best of our current understanding.

The next major blow to the Islamic world was the exploitation of the New World. The Islamic world was simply not located in a region that allowed it to get in on the spoils, and it was a combination of growing European naval supremacy and ergo trade supremacy from China through the Indian Ocean with the wealth of the New World (plus the fallout from the black death and the general depopulation of Europe a couple centuries earlier giving peasants more rights) which went onto fuel the general prosperity that fueled the renaissance and the later enlightenment.

Eventually we see virtual global European economic and cultural hegemony, as the Mughal Empire and the Ottoman Empires floundered and began to fail or outright failed there were no Islamic states among the worlds great powers to create any sort of check or balance to Christian European supremacy.

This is a very brief overview, keep that in mind, we're talking about a period from the end of the 1400's right up to the start of the 20th century with WW1 and its aftermath.

We see Muslim states becoming imperial possessions of this European power or that. In practical terms this is part of the Imperial model, with mercantilism or in better terms general economic exploitation. In the preceding 4 or 5 centuries, Europe had grown to be the preeminent cultural and economic force in the world. The countries in general terms were very prosperous. These prosperous conditions fostered the renaissance and the enlightenment, Europe became more secular as a result. The Islamic world however, went from being the center of the world from a trading perspective and wealthy and prosperous to increasingly marginalized economically. Things went from bad to worse, and when people are struggling to find food, they are not thinking about broad and grand topics like the rights of men.

These are optimal conditions for radicalism. In fact it is rather astonishing that widespread radical militarism didn't erupt in the middle-east sooner. It's really only come to a head in the last century or so maybe from well intentioned but ultimately terrible policies. Modern geopolitics also help account for the emergence of this radicalism. We help keep dictators and royal families in power that have vested interests in keeping their populations impoverished despite in some of these areas having tremendous wealth from petroleum. It's in the wests best interest to keep these groups in power because it is in the best interests of these groups in power to pump as much of the stuff out of the ground as possible as quickly as possible (within some reason) to enrich themselves to the maximum.

I want to touch back on the 11th-12th century really quickly. The first crusade. Most people who are not scholars will tell you that it was a religious war fought for religious reasons. It wasn't. It was a political/economic war fought with religious language. Pope Urban II used the language of religion to inspire a political and economic war of conquest. The purpose of the first Crusade had very little to do with religion insofar as religion can be separated from the day to day life of Christians and Christian kingdoms in the 11th and 12th centuries.

The purpose of the Crusade wasn't about killing Muslims, or reclaiming the Holy Land for religious reasons as much as it was to get the Christian world to stop slaughtering each other, and to engage in good old adventurism so the second and third sons could stop cocking Europe up with their claims and petty wars and have some land of their own. The Holyland was the convenient outlet for such an adventure and the times made religion the logical tool to incite such a war.

The current Islamic radicalism, isn't really about religion. It's about political self determination and economics. The problem we face however is religious. This is because the Islamic world never had the opportunity to go through a period of secularization and there is nothing to indicate that it couldn't have happened. So now we have a war being fought for political and economic issues being fought in the name of religion. Using religious justification and whatnot.

Simply put, if religion wasn't the rallying cry, it would be something else, probably a form of nationalism. There is nothing unique about Islam other than it survived in its medieval form largely intact to the modern world.
 
For you to defend Aurangzeb and completely take away the religion part from his intentions just highlights what kind of a person you are and how much biased you actually are. I'm done arguing with you, I'd feel pity for you to live in such a blinkered world but then you seem pretty happy about, so best of luck!
Good reply, really informative.
 
The issue with Islam isn't so much the religion itself, but rather the circumstances of the religion currently.

At one point, Islam was the progressive, tolerant, enlightened and forward thinking religion (for 10-11th century standards) while Christianity was the radicalized militant kid on the block looking to get even.

It's a bit of a complex situation but I will try to explain it as best as my education in history will allow me to.

The primary issue is the issue of secularization. If you look at the Bible (old and new) and the Koran, they both have some very dark, and by modern standards, evil forms of justice in them. What's the difference? We in the west for the most part don't take that stuff in the bible seriously anymore. In the Islamic world they do? Why? Secularization. Through the renaissance and the enlightenment the Christian World embarked on a period of secularization, to the point now where while Christianity is the dominant religion, it has absolutely no bearing on the political, or justice systems of the Western democratic world.

So what happened? Why did the Christian world in the 10th and 11th centuries arguably at its most militant and radicalized levels turn about face and move to a less radicalized version which ultimately led to secularization while the Islamic world (speaking primarily about the middle-east here) went in largely the opposite direction from their own point of greatest tolerance?

Simply put, general prosperity. Radicalization occurs when people are struggling to make ends meet. Look no further than Germany in the interwar period. It took a about a decade for radical militarism to take hold in Germany. It happened very rapidly in Germany, and that was a predominantly Christian state. Religious values don't preclude this sort of thing from happening.

So what happened with the Islamic world? Well let's blame the Portuguese first! I'm kidding of course, but the Portuguese were the first in a long line of European naval powers that took a large portion of trade away from the great Islamic land empires (Ottomans and Mughals) starting at the very tail end of the 15th century. The Middle-East owed its prosperity to that East to West trade from China via the Silkroad and its tributaries trade routes. One of the most important of these was the India Ocean trade hub and the Portuguese and later Europeans asserted domination over these areas, diverting huge chunks of trade from the Islamic world.

Before we go further, let me just say, I firmly believe in "all is fair in love and war" and this isn't an apologist account. I apologize for nothing, but we can be honest about what did happen and why it happened to the best of our current understanding.

The next major blow to the Islamic world was the exploitation of the New World. The Islamic world was simply not located in a region that allowed it to get in on the spoils, and it was a combination of growing European naval supremacy and ergo trade supremacy from China through the Indian Ocean with the wealth of the New World (plus the fallout from the black death and the general depopulation of Europe a couple centuries earlier giving peasants more rights) which went onto fuel the general prosperity that fueled the renaissance and the later enlightenment.

Eventually we see virtual global European economic and cultural hegemony, as the Mughal Empire and the Ottoman Empires floundered and began to fail or outright failed there were no Islamic states among the worlds great powers to create any sort of check or balance to Christian European supremacy.

This is a very brief overview, keep that in mind, we're talking about a period from the end of the 1400's right up to the start of the 20th century with WW1 and its aftermath.

We see Muslim states becoming imperial possessions of this European power or that. In practical terms this is part of the Imperial model, with mercantilism or in better terms general economic exploitation. In the preceding 4 or 5 centuries, Europe had grown to be the preeminent cultural and economic force in the world. The countries in general terms were very prosperous. These prosperous conditions fostered the renaissance and the enlightenment, Europe became more secular as a result. The Islamic world however, went from being the center of the world from a trading perspective and wealthy and prosperous to increasingly marginalized economically. Things went from bad to worse, and when people are struggling to find food, they are not thinking about broad and grand topics like the rights of men.

These are optimal conditions for radicalism. In fact it is rather astonishing that widespread radical militarism didn't erupt in the middle-east sooner. It's really only come to a head in the last century or so maybe from well intentioned but ultimately terrible policies. Modern geopolitics also help account for the emergence of this radicalism. We help keep dictators and royal families in power that have vested interests in keeping their populations impoverished despite in some of these areas having tremendous wealth from petroleum. It's in the wests best interest to keep these groups in power because it is in the best interests of these groups in power to pump as much of the stuff out of the ground as possible as quickly as possible (within some reason) to enrich themselves to the maximum.

I want to touch back on the 11th-12th century really quickly. The first crusade. Most people who are not scholars will tell you that it was a religious war fought for religious reasons. It wasn't. It was a political/economic war fought with religious language. Pope Urban II used the language of religion to inspire a political and economic war of conquest. The purpose of the first Crusade had very little to do with religion insofar as religion can be separated from the day to day life of Christians and Christian kingdoms in the 11th and 12th centuries.

The purpose of the Crusade wasn't about killing Muslims, or reclaiming the Holy Land for religious reasons as much as it was to get the Christian world to stop slaughtering each other, and to engage in good old adventurism so the second and third sons could stop cocking Europe up with their claims and petty wars and have some land of their own. The Holyland was the convenient outlet for such an adventure and the times made religion the logical tool to incite such a war.

The current Islamic radicalism, isn't really about religion. It's about political self determination and economics. The problem we face however is religious. This is because the Islamic world never had the opportunity to go through a period of secularization and there is nothing to indicate that it couldn't have happened. So now we have a war being fought for political and economic issues being fought in the name of religion. Using religious justification and whatnot.

Simply put, if religion wasn't the rallying cry, it would be something else, probably a form of nationalism. There is nothing unique about Islam other than it survived in its medieval form largely intact to the modern world.
Great read, as have been a lot of other posts in this thread. Fascinating stuff. As is the case with history, it is often times quite a subjective topic where raw facts can be manipulated based on the viewpoint of the author, but it's good to get the input from people of different backgrounds and knowledge. That's why I love reading in this section of the forum because there really is quite a diverse group of people contributing to it.
 
Great read, as have been a lot of other posts in this thread. Fascinating stuff. As is the case with history, it is often times quite a subjective topic where raw facts can be manipulated based on the viewpoint of the author, but it's good to get the input from people of different backgrounds and knowledge. That's why I love reading in this section of the forum because there really is quite a diverse group of people contributing to it.

Nicely said. Even where one doesn't agree with someone at least one learns to understand their viewpoint a bit more. Keeping an open mind is the hard bit of course, just got to keep trying on that one.
 
Nicely said. Even where one doesn't agree with someone at least one learns to understand their viewpoint a bit more. Keeping an open mind is the hard bit of course, just got to keep trying on that one.
Yeah growing up in South Africa and studying history in high school it was very much focused on US, European and South African history. Some little tidbits on Asian history here and there. Good to learn about different cultures from their own perspective.
 
The issue with Islam isn't so much the religion itself, but rather the circumstances of the religion currently.

At one point, Islam was the progressive, tolerant, enlightened and forward thinking religion (for 10-11th century standards) while Christianity was the radicalized militant kid on the block looking to get even.

It's a bit of a complex situation but I will try to explain it as best as my education in history will allow me to.

The primary issue is the issue of secularization. If you look at the Bible (old and new) and the Koran, they both have some very dark, and by modern standards, evil forms of justice in them. What's the difference? We in the west for the most part don't take that stuff in the bible seriously anymore. In the Islamic world they do? Why? Secularization. Through the renaissance and the enlightenment the Christian World embarked on a period of secularization, to the point now where while Christianity is the dominant religion, it has absolutely no bearing on the political, or justice systems of the Western democratic world.

So what happened? Why did the Christian world in the 10th and 11th centuries arguably at its most militant and radicalized levels turn about face and move to a less radicalized version which ultimately led to secularization while the Islamic world (speaking primarily about the middle-east here) went in largely the opposite direction from their own point of greatest tolerance?

Simply put, general prosperity. Radicalization occurs when people are struggling to make ends meet. Look no further than Germany in the interwar period. It took a about a decade for radical militarism to take hold in Germany. It happened very rapidly in Germany, and that was a predominantly Christian state. Religious values don't preclude this sort of thing from happening.

So what happened with the Islamic world? Well let's blame the Portuguese first! I'm kidding of course, but the Portuguese were the first in a long line of European naval powers that took a large portion of trade away from the great Islamic land empires (Ottomans and Mughals) starting at the very tail end of the 15th century. The Middle-East owed its prosperity to that East to West trade from China via the Silkroad and its tributaries trade routes. One of the most important of these was the India Ocean trade hub and the Portuguese and later Europeans asserted domination over these areas, diverting huge chunks of trade from the Islamic world.

Before we go further, let me just say, I firmly believe in "all is fair in love and war" and this isn't an apologist account. I apologize for nothing, but we can be honest about what did happen and why it happened to the best of our current understanding.

The next major blow to the Islamic world was the exploitation of the New World. The Islamic world was simply not located in a region that allowed it to get in on the spoils, and it was a combination of growing European naval supremacy and ergo trade supremacy from China through the Indian Ocean with the wealth of the New World (plus the fallout from the black death and the general depopulation of Europe a couple centuries earlier giving peasants more rights) which went onto fuel the general prosperity that fueled the renaissance and the later enlightenment.

Eventually we see virtual global European economic and cultural hegemony, as the Mughal Empire and the Ottoman Empires floundered and began to fail or outright failed there were no Islamic states among the worlds great powers to create any sort of check or balance to Christian European supremacy.

This is a very brief overview, keep that in mind, we're talking about a period from the end of the 1400's right up to the start of the 20th century with WW1 and its aftermath.

We see Muslim states becoming imperial possessions of this European power or that. In practical terms this is part of the Imperial model, with mercantilism or in better terms general economic exploitation. In the preceding 4 or 5 centuries, Europe had grown to be the preeminent cultural and economic force in the world. The countries in general terms were very prosperous. These prosperous conditions fostered the renaissance and the enlightenment, Europe became more secular as a result. The Islamic world however, went from being the center of the world from a trading perspective and wealthy and prosperous to increasingly marginalized economically. Things went from bad to worse, and when people are struggling to find food, they are not thinking about broad and grand topics like the rights of men.

These are optimal conditions for radicalism. In fact it is rather astonishing that widespread radical militarism didn't erupt in the middle-east sooner. It's really only come to a head in the last century or so maybe from well intentioned but ultimately terrible policies. Modern geopolitics also help account for the emergence of this radicalism. We help keep dictators and royal families in power that have vested interests in keeping their populations impoverished despite in some of these areas having tremendous wealth from petroleum. It's in the wests best interest to keep these groups in power because it is in the best interests of these groups in power to pump as much of the stuff out of the ground as possible as quickly as possible (within some reason) to enrich themselves to the maximum.

I want to touch back on the 11th-12th century really quickly. The first crusade. Most people who are not scholars will tell you that it was a religious war fought for religious reasons. It wasn't. It was a political/economic war fought with religious language. Pope Urban II used the language of religion to inspire a political and economic war of conquest. The purpose of the first Crusade had very little to do with religion insofar as religion can be separated from the day to day life of Christians and Christian kingdoms in the 11th and 12th centuries.

The purpose of the Crusade wasn't about killing Muslims, or reclaiming the Holy Land for religious reasons as much as it was to get the Christian world to stop slaughtering each other, and to engage in good old adventurism so the second and third sons could stop cocking Europe up with their claims and petty wars and have some land of their own. The Holyland was the convenient outlet for such an adventure and the times made religion the logical tool to incite such a war.

The current Islamic radicalism, isn't really about religion. It's about political self determination and economics. The problem we face however is religious. This is because the Islamic world never had the opportunity to go through a period of secularization and there is nothing to indicate that it couldn't have happened. So now we have a war being fought for political and economic issues being fought in the name of religion. Using religious justification and whatnot.

Simply put, if religion wasn't the rallying cry, it would be something else, probably a form of nationalism. There is nothing unique about Islam other than it survived in its medieval form largely intact to the modern world.
Cracking post, one of the best I've read recently :cool: You absolutely nailed it in the bolded paragraphs.
 
The issue with Islam isn't so much the religion itself, but rather the circumstances of the religion currently.

At one point, Islam was the progressive, tolerant, enlightened and forward thinking religion (for 10-11th century standards) while Christianity was the radicalized militant kid on the block looking to get even.

It's a bit of a complex situation but I will try to explain it as best as my education in history will allow me to.

The primary issue is the issue of secularization. If you look at the Bible (old and new) and the Koran, they both have some very dark, and by modern standards, evil forms of justice in them. What's the difference? We in the west for the most part don't take that stuff in the bible seriously anymore. In the Islamic world they do? Why? Secularization. Through the renaissance and the enlightenment the Christian World embarked on a period of secularization, to the point now where while Christianity is the dominant religion, it has absolutely no bearing on the political, or justice systems of the Western democratic world.

So what happened? Why did the Christian world in the 10th and 11th centuries arguably at its most militant and radicalized levels turn about face and move to a less radicalized version which ultimately led to secularization while the Islamic world (speaking primarily about the middle-east here) went in largely the opposite direction from their own point of greatest tolerance?

Simply put, general prosperity. Radicalization occurs when people are struggling to make ends meet. Look no further than Germany in the interwar period. It took a about a decade for radical militarism to take hold in Germany. It happened very rapidly in Germany, and that was a predominantly Christian state. Religious values don't preclude this sort of thing from happening.

So what happened with the Islamic world? Well let's blame the Portuguese first! I'm kidding of course, but the Portuguese were the first in a long line of European naval powers that took a large portion of trade away from the great Islamic land empires (Ottomans and Mughals) starting at the very tail end of the 15th century. The Middle-East owed its prosperity to that East to West trade from China via the Silkroad and its tributaries trade routes. One of the most important of these was the India Ocean trade hub and the Portuguese and later Europeans asserted domination over these areas, diverting huge chunks of trade from the Islamic world.

Before we go further, let me just say, I firmly believe in "all is fair in love and war" and this isn't an apologist account. I apologize for nothing, but we can be honest about what did happen and why it happened to the best of our current understanding.

The next major blow to the Islamic world was the exploitation of the New World. The Islamic world was simply not located in a region that allowed it to get in on the spoils, and it was a combination of growing European naval supremacy and ergo trade supremacy from China through the Indian Ocean with the wealth of the New World (plus the fallout from the black death and the general depopulation of Europe a couple centuries earlier giving peasants more rights) which went onto fuel the general prosperity that fueled the renaissance and the later enlightenment.

Eventually we see virtual global European economic and cultural hegemony, as the Mughal Empire and the Ottoman Empires floundered and began to fail or outright failed there were no Islamic states among the worlds great powers to create any sort of check or balance to Christian European supremacy.

This is a very brief overview, keep that in mind, we're talking about a period from the end of the 1400's right up to the start of the 20th century with WW1 and its aftermath.

We see Muslim states becoming imperial possessions of this European power or that. In practical terms this is part of the Imperial model, with mercantilism or in better terms general economic exploitation. In the preceding 4 or 5 centuries, Europe had grown to be the preeminent cultural and economic force in the world. The countries in general terms were very prosperous. These prosperous conditions fostered the renaissance and the enlightenment, Europe became more secular as a result. The Islamic world however, went from being the center of the world from a trading perspective and wealthy and prosperous to increasingly marginalized economically. Things went from bad to worse, and when people are struggling to find food, they are not thinking about broad and grand topics like the rights of men.

These are optimal conditions for radicalism. In fact it is rather astonishing that widespread radical militarism didn't erupt in the middle-east sooner. It's really only come to a head in the last century or so maybe from well intentioned but ultimately terrible policies. Modern geopolitics also help account for the emergence of this radicalism. We help keep dictators and royal families in power that have vested interests in keeping their populations impoverished despite in some of these areas having tremendous wealth from petroleum. It's in the wests best interest to keep these groups in power because it is in the best interests of these groups in power to pump as much of the stuff out of the ground as possible as quickly as possible (within some reason) to enrich themselves to the maximum.

I want to touch back on the 11th-12th century really quickly. The first crusade. Most people who are not scholars will tell you that it was a religious war fought for religious reasons. It wasn't. It was a political/economic war fought with religious language. Pope Urban II used the language of religion to inspire a political and economic war of conquest. The purpose of the first Crusade had very little to do with religion insofar as religion can be separated from the day to day life of Christians and Christian kingdoms in the 11th and 12th centuries.

The purpose of the Crusade wasn't about killing Muslims, or reclaiming the Holy Land for religious reasons as much as it was to get the Christian world to stop slaughtering each other, and to engage in good old adventurism so the second and third sons could stop cocking Europe up with their claims and petty wars and have some land of their own. The Holyland was the convenient outlet for such an adventure and the times made religion the logical tool to incite such a war.

The current Islamic radicalism, isn't really about religion. It's about political self determination and economics. The problem we face however is religious. This is because the Islamic world never had the opportunity to go through a period of secularization and there is nothing to indicate that it couldn't have happened. So now we have a war being fought for political and economic issues being fought in the name of religion. Using religious justification and whatnot.

Simply put, if religion wasn't the rallying cry, it would be something else, probably a form of nationalism. There is nothing unique about Islam other than it survived in its medieval form largely intact to the modern world.

Splendid post, a joy to read and very little to personally disagree with.
 
I saw this post on Facebook. Interesting words out of the mouth of this Palestinian mother.
Edit: Summary of the video as posted on youtube:
from Israel's Voice:
This Palestinian mother was shown such kindness by Jews when her young son was treated, free of charge, for his heart problem in an Israeli hospital. She freely acknowledges this, but she still hopes that her child will grow up to be a martyr. This video is a rare look into the mind of someone who worships death and destruction. She describes the difference between her culture and all of Western society perfectly when she explains that for her people life is meaningless.




She has lived her entire life with her nation occupied by Israel. Her son will most likely live his life under occupation. Palestinian lives are meanigless to the Israelis, a people to be used for cheap labour and blown apart at will. Palestinians celebrate martyrdom as they face it everyday at israels hand, they make a victory from defeat
 
She has lived her entire life with her nation occupied by Israel. Her son will most likely live his life under occupation. Palestinian lives are meanigless to the Israelis, a people to be used for cheap labour and blown apart at will. Palestinians celebrate martyrdom as they face it everyday at israels hand, they make a victory from defeat

Good try.

The essence of the video is that this life - in her own words - are meaningless to the Palestinians, not so the Israeli's who value life enough to ensure the poor kid actually has a chance to make his own choices when he grows up healthily. And if that means that he views Jews in a better light instead of 'apes and pigs' then maybe, just maybe there's a future peacemaker in there somewhere.

Besides, even IF your spun version of 'meaningless' in purely because of Israel and not Islam, why in earth would the Israeli doctors even bother???
 
Good try.

The essence of the video is that this life - in her own words - are meaningless to the Palestinians, not so the Israeli's who value life enough to ensure the poor kid actually has a chance to make his own choices when he grows up healthily. And if that means that he views Jews in a better light instead of 'apes and pigs' then maybe, just maybe there's a future peacemaker in there somewhere.

Besides, even IF your spun version of 'meaningless' in purely because of Israel and not Islam, why in earth would the Israeli doctors even bother???

Israel knows the value of good PR
 
...Simply put, if religion wasn't the rallying cry, it would be something else, probably a form of nationalism. There is nothing unique about Islam other than it survived in its medieval form largely intact to the modern world.

Again, good post from you. I hope you don't mind if I expand on it a bit? This is a copy and paste job from an e-mail I sent someone else before (apologies for the length):

In classical Sunni Islamic theory, there is no 'clergy' along the lines of Catholicism. There are no intermediaries between the faithful and God, no Pope to define the exact rules of practice, and the path to salvation is to be found by simply obeying the commands of Muhammad's successor on earth, the caliph, who is the most suitable candidate for leadership chosen with the consensus of the community.

In practice, the role of caliph lost much of the prestige associated with the early days of Islam, first after it became a hereditary position under the Umayyads and then Abbasids, and then especially after the decline of the central authority of the caliphate during the ninth century, after which a number of autonomous and even explicitly independent powers emerged. This left the Islamic community with a problem - with no real genealogical or institutional links left remaining to the time of Muhammad (although the Shi'a argued otherwise), who was to define the proper practice of Islam?

Into this question stepped the ulema, the theologian-class of Muslims who assumed the task of establishing some sort of 'orthodox' understanding of the creed (this was becoming even more important since, at this stage some 2-3 centuries since Muhammad, the empire was becoming increasingly Muslim). Two over-lapping trends developed - the Sufi path, whereby salvation was to be achieved either through a direct, personal and spiritual experience of God himself, or if that cannot be achieved, then through a direct link to one who can (a Sufi shaykh/pir, etc.) - and the Shari'a path, whereby the ulema classified the standard practice and laws of Islam, with eventually four alternative (though only superficially different) schools of thought on the matter prevailing (these are the four madhahib - the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali schools of law).

Naturally enough then, the ulema came to assume a position of authority in Islam that the majority of Muslims accepted as long as they felt
secure in the knowledge of the supremacy of their civilization (expressed through, for example, the beauty of the Arabic language, and the conquest of non-Muslim lands). In this context, the rise and fall of various sultans, shahs, caliphs, etc. didn't have great significance, The important thing was the maintenance and understanding of the shari'a so that the layman could get into paradise, and if the ruler provided the conditions for that, then his authority was legitimate.

However, the accumulation of centuries of generally unoriginal and repetitive theological treatises, commentaries, and other forms of scholarship produced by the adherents of the four madhahib created a massive gulf between the average illiterate layman and the original texts upon which the sharia was based - the Qur'an and the hadith. When the European powers began to encroach upon and eventually conquer much of the Islamic world, many learned Muslims blamed their weakness and relative backwardness on this sense that Muslims had lost touch with the original spirit of Islam, and consequently blamed the ulema for stifling free enquiry into the original texts and basically acting to preserve their acquired privileges as a unique class within Islamic society.

So by the end of the nineteenth century, there was an anti-ulema backlash. This coincided with the growth of literacy and the use of print in the Islamic world, which enabled more and more people to directly access the original texts (the Qur'an and hadith) to understand the practice of Muhammad and the early Muslims (the salaf), and use their own independent reasoning (ijtihad) to judge the correct practice of their religion.

This freedom from the conservative ulema and search for the true spirit of early Islam produced four trends. The lines between them are sometimes blurred, and some movements can be placed across more than one, but it generally holds true IMO.

The first group, the secularists, decided that Western civilization, or at least the Western model of political order, was on the rise and basically superior, and aimed to relegate Islam to the private sphere. The most successful example of this was Ataturk in Turkey, although for almost half a century from the end of WW1 until the 6-day war many Arab countries were generally dominated by 'secular' regimes. However, for obvious historical reasons it was much harder for Arabs to make the clean break with the past that Turkey had done, and Arab Nationalism was always infused with elements of Islamic imagery and rhetoric.

The second group, the 'modernists', believed that by returning to the Qur'an and the hadith and emulating the prophet, Muslims could reconcile Islam with the reality of Western power, since they believed that Islam, properly understood, already enshrined all the positive aspects of Western civilization, and that there need be no conflict between them. In India, the most famous proponents of this trend were Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan who founded the Muslim University at Aligarh, and Muhammad Iqbal, the spiritual father of Pakistan, which may have evolved into a leading example of the trend in practice if Jinnah hadn't died so early and the Islamists who had actually rejected the movement for Pakistan hadn't managed to hijack the cause. Another famous proponent was Muhammad Abduh of Egypt, who attempted to reform the Azhar University in Cairo along the lines of a modern European university. He is famous for writing "I went to the West and saw Islam, but no Muslims; I got back to the East and saw Muslims, but not Islam." This trend has probably been the least successful politically, but probably best embodies how most Muslims in the west conduct their lives. A good modern-day example might be Tariq Ramadan, although some have doubts about his genuineness.

The third trend, the 'Islamist', was explicitly anti-Western but revolutionary, and believed that the return to the texts and spirit of Islam was the means to oust the Western powers from Muslim lands and restore the glory of the early Islamic empires. At the same time, they discovered they could utilize Western technology and organization (primarily 'the State') for the good of Islam. This is the trend which produced the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-i Islami, who were influenced in organizational terms by interwar European fascism and sought to seize the state in order to implement a top-down Islamization of society.

These three trends are explicitly anti-clerical in their disdain for the traditional, conservative ulema. Hence the lack of officially-earned religious credentials held by members of the Muslim Brotherhood and groups like al-Qaeda. The final trend, what I'll call the 'scriptural', was primarily driven by the reaction of the ulema to the sudden loss in their prestige and traditional authority. It was deeply conservative and believed the West was best shunned in order for Muslims to maintain their true identity. They tended to retreat into their madrasas and other educational institutions to concentrate on purifying the creed, and often remained apolitical. The best examples would be the Wahhabi trend in Arabia, and the Deoband and Ahl-i Hadis movements in South Asia. The problem for the ulema in the last century or so has been maintaining their hold over the community. To do this they've had to tread a fine line between the state, which from the mid-twentieth century onwards co-opted them, and the Islamists, whose success and growing prestige undermined their own power. It's no surprise therefore to find them often adopting many of the political positions expounded upon by the Islamists.

Modern-day jihadis represent a coming together of the revolutionary fervor of the Islamists with the deeply conservative literalism of the structuralists - you could say a merger of Sayyid Qutb and Ibn Taymiyyah. But it was by no means inevitable that these two trends would come to dominate the other two, or that they'll continue to do so. The secularist trend failed due to a combination of Western sabotage (most famously in Iran but also in the Arab nationalist states where the Western Cold War bloc supported religious conservatives against the regimes), guilt-by-association (those secular regimes close to the West were tainted by association), the complete failure of the secular regimes to solve any of the region's problems or provide any kind of dignified life for the people, and the rise of Saudi oil money and the Iranian Revolution. And of course various policies in non-Muslim states often help drive recruitment to the jihadi cause.

The modernist trend has suffered from the accusation that its adherents have sought to 'change' Islam in order to have it complement the modern world, and that in doing so they have lost the fundamentals of the faith. Yet I think most Muslims in the West, in the way they live their lives, exemplify this trend, although as yet it has not given rise to a solid political movement. But the idea that Islam inevitably produces groups like al Qaeda and ISIS is nonsense. It requires the coming together of certain trends and historical processes, almost all of which depend on factors beyond Islam.
 
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