How much of a priority is upgrading our goalkeeper?

[VeevaVee]

You ever watched Liverpool without allison in nets? They look really shakey at the back they look vulnerable and thats even with V.V.D playing. Remember last season when Aston villa tore them apart, guess who was missing that night? Hint it wasn't V.V.D.

In the nearly ten years he has been here we have never looked good defensivley we have always had a weakness there, the defenders have all changed, the midfielders infront have all changed. There is a common denominator. Even behind vidic and ferdinand De gea looked shakey and we conceded more chances then when van der sar was in nets. At that point it was put down to DDG inexperience, but now its quite clear he's actually not that good.

Without vvd Allison also looks much shakier.

The common denominator is that we’ve been terrible for most of that time, especially at defending. That’s not his fault. We’ve bought a whole new defence and they all need replacing. Not his fault. We still haven’t got a proper DM. Again, not his fault.

 

[Oranges038]

He really didnt. He didnt even command his box like people kept saying he would be so much better at and his shop stopping is below average. He is a much worse keeper than DDG.
We need to upgrade Dave but we have much bigger issues currently. And Henderson is not the upgrade we need.

He actually proved that this fan base will cream it’s pants over a new player in the XI and swear they are the best thing ever (especially if said player is “one of our own”) even if they are not all that great.

Nah, he proved that DDG is possibly the most over rated keeper in the history of the game and is definitely the most over paid.

Three years in a row DDG has been shipping an average of over a goal a game and he has let in many worse goals than the Salah one everyone loves to bang Henderson about.

People can blame his form, Maguire's form or Shaw or Fred or McT it doesn't matter, even when they were playing well he still conceded on average at least a goal a game over 3 seasons. 3 seasons isn't just form, it points to something deeper. The only time that dropped below a goal a game was when Henderson played and he had the same players in front of him too.

Henderson played 10 less games 26 vs 36, kept the same amount of clean sheets 12, won one less game 17/26 vs 18/36. Conceded on average less than a goal a game, the team conceded less chances and he had a higher save %.

So yeah, what that proved last season was that even though Henderson isn't actually great. He's still a dam sight better for the team as a whole than DDG.

 

[Hansi Fick]

I find it hard to believe De Gea couldn't change his game a little bit under a decisive management. How does he do it for Spain?
He's not going to turn into a brilliant passer, of course, but surely he can do some kind of job passing it to a defender under medium pressure and being positioned further forward behind a higher line, if that is what a manager demands and trains him to do?

 

[Oranges038]

I find it hard to believe De Gea couldn't change his game a little bit under a decisive management. How does he do it for Spain?
He's not going to turn into a brilliant passer, of course, but surely he can do some kind of job passing it to a defender under medium pressure and being positioned further forward behind a higher line, if that is what a manager demands and trains him to do?

He doesn't, has barely played in the last year or 2 and isn't even in the latest squad.

 

[Hansi Fick]

He doesn't, has barely played in the last year or 2 and isn't even in the latest squad.

Oh really? I missed that, who's their keeper now?

 

[Lyng]

Literally every performance metric improved with Henderson in goal as opposed to De Gea. As soon as De Gea returned to the team, so did the defensive chaos (De Gea's supposed MOTM performance against Roma anyone for example).

We kept more clean sheets with Henderson in goal than De Gea in 12 fewer games. Everyone remembers Henderson's game against Liverpool but ignores the fact that De Gea's performance in this seasons game against Liverpool was just as bad, if not worse.

I cannot honestly believe we have people supposedly watching us week in week out who do not see the issues De Gea brings to the team. We concede so many goals due to his ridiculous inability to leave his line in any scenario, be it to collect a ball coming into the box, to deal with crosses or to meet an attacker through on goal, he costs us all the time.

We played a completely different style of football last season. We havent seen him with this new setup.
We concede more goals now due to Maguire being awful in this setup.

De Gea doesnt fit this system either and needs to be replaced, but thinking that Henderson is the answer is naive.

 

[Oranges038]

Oh really? I missed that, who's their keeper now?

Unai Simon.

He's by no means a great keeper but he's a better fit to how the team wants to play.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Unai Simon.

He's by no means a great keeper but he's a better fit to how the team wants to play.

Oh right. Damn.

Ok, then, let's try to think positive ... that would mean it would be in De Gea's interest to upgrade his game in terms of playing out the back and sweeping positioning in order to claim his NT place back?

 

[Oranges038]

Oh right. Damn.

Ok, then, let's try to think positive ... that would mean it would be in De Gea's interest to upgrade his game in terms of playing out the back and sweeping positioning in order to claim his NT place back?

Yeah.

Realistically though, it's hard to see it happening, he'd have to completely reinvent his game and he already resisted the coach under LVG trying to do this with him.

 

[Lyng]

Nah, he proved that DDG is possibly the most over rated keeper in the history of the game and is definitely the most over paid.

Three years in a row DDG has been shipping an average of over a goal a game and he has let in many worse goals than the Salah one everyone loves to bang Henderson about.

People can blame his form, Maguire's form or Shaw or Fred or McT it doesn't matter, even when they were playing well he still conceded on average at least a goal a game over 3 seasons. 3 seasons isn't just form, it points to something deeper. The only time that dropped below a goal a game was when Henderson played and he had the same players in front of him too.

Henderson played 10 less games 26 vs 36, kept the same amount of clean sheets 12, won one less game 17/26 vs 18/36. Conceded on average less than a goal a game, the team conceded less chances and he had a higher save %.

So yeah, what that proved last season was that even though Henderson isn't actually great. He's still a dam sight better for the team as a whole than DDG.

So if he is so good why doesnt Ralf use him?

 

[CM]

It can wait for a season, maybe two, but that's only due to the number of other positions in the squad in dire need of investment. Our recruitment needs to be so much better under the new manager.

 

[JB7]

We played a completely different style of football last season. We havent seen him with this new setup.
We concede more goals now due to Maguire being awful in this setup.

De Gea doesnt fit this system either and needs to be replaced, but thinking that Henderson is the answer is naive.

There is a massive difference between "we are a better team with Henderson in goal" than "Henderson is the answer".

Nobody is saying Henderson is the long term answer, I don't understand how people struggle to get that into their heads. People are asking the question of how important is upgrading the goalkeeper and the answer is that with De Gea it is vitally important, whereas with Henderson it would still be important but less so.

So bored of everything being Maguire's fault. He's having a shite season but the reality is that with a different goalkeeper behind him a hell of a lot of the goals he is supposedly at fault for aren't even chances, let alone goals. Leicester for example, everyone hammered Maguire effectively playing on one leg but De Gea was every bit as bad as him but nobody batted an eyelid, Liverpool and Atalanta too he was even worse.

 

[Lyng]

There is a massive difference between "we are a better team with Henderson in goal" than "Henderson is the answer".

Nobody is saying Henderson is the long term answer, I don't understand how people struggle to get that into their heads. People are asking the question of how important is upgrading the goalkeeper and the answer is that with De Gea it is vitally important, whereas with Henderson it would still be important but less so.

So bored of everything being Maguire's fault. He's having a shite season but the reality is that with a different goalkeeper behind him a hell of a lot of the goals he is supposedly at fault for aren't even chances, let alone goals. Leicester for example, everyone hammered Maguire effectively playing on one leg but De Gea was every bit as bad as him but nobody batted an eyelid, Liverpool too.

Maguire is our biggest issue because he is shite in this system and his overall football intelligence is absurdly low. He was fine when we played super defensive counter attacking under Ole and under Southgate which is a similar system.
De Gea needs to be replaced for the same reason, but his superb shot stopping puts him slightly lower on the priority.
Ideally they both are replaced in the summer, but it needs to be an actual upgrade and not simply Henderson.

 

[Oranges038]

So if he is so good why doesnt Ralf use him?

Who knows..

 

[Elcabron]

He lacks authority in his box, is terrible with the ball at his feet and his sweeping is average at best.

It's a high priority to move him on, and it needs to happen next summer.

Agree, we should allow him to leave on a free when current deal expires. He owes us nothing in terms of transfer fees at this stage. It is critical for a solid defence to have a keeper who commands his area and of course also that he is good with his feet, DDG is neither.

Great reflexes and pulls off some amazing saves which may not be required if we had a rock solid defence and part of that rock solid defence is a commanding keeper.

 

[Solius]

I think it's more of a priority than people realise but also not top priority.

 

[Skills]

I basically agree with this. Sort everything in front of him and he’s not nearly as much of an issue. We don’t play a style of football that relies heavily on a ball playing keeper. Arguably, we’re not even close. Sure, we might end up at a point where he’s completely holding us back but right now that’s not particularly the case and I think his flaws are overblown (apart from staying rooted to his line which drives me mental - it’ll be my enduring image of him after he leaves: the overhit through hall between centre half and full back, the centre half begging him to come get it while trying to shield the ball which is by now barely moving).

The thing is though he did that under Louis Van Gaal. He became a really competent sweeper and was quite active off his line, but it's something that's quite obviously been coached out of him by Mourinho and Solskjaer

 

[Lyng]

I think it's more of a priority than people realise but also not top priority.

I think this is exactly spot on. If we are actually going to swap out 5+ players from our starting line up this season then yes I think De Gea needs to be apart of that change. But if its only one or two then there are higher priority positions.

 

[JB7]

Maguire is our biggest issue because he is shite in this system and his overall football intelligence is absurdly low. He was fine when we played super defensive counter attacking under Ole and under Southgate which is a similar system.
De Gea needs to be replaced for the same reason, but his superb shot stopping puts him slightly lower on the priority.
Ideally they both are replaced in the summer, but it needs to be an actual upgrade and not simply Henderson.

He's not our biggest issue and equally he isn't at his best in low block football. The best we've seen from Maguire is last season under Henderson when we were able to play a higher line and at the Euro's where again, he was higher than he would normally have played at United in front of De Gea under Ole. He actually tends to make mistakes in the low block, very similar to how he does now as being the centre half who has to press into midfield which is where the lack of a functional holding midfield hinders us massively and obviously his relationship with De Gea is non existent which doesn't help either.

The way to look at it is if you put two world class centre backs and a holding midfielder in front of De Gea you would still see massive issues with crosses into the box and them being uncertain as to his position regarding balls over the top and not wanting to pass the ball to him in any circumstances due to his refusal to make himself available. If you put a world class goalkeeper and holding midfielder either side of Maguire he would be perfectly competent at doing his own job rather than having to cover a huge distance of the pitch both in front of him and behind him, we've seen with Maguire that he follows management instructions to the letter even where it puts him in positions he is clearly not comfortable, if he was asked to just to his own job with the proper protection in front and behind he would be fine, not spectacular or brilliant, but fine.

 

[Lyng]

He's not our biggest issue and equally he isn't at his best in low block football. The best we've seen from Maguire is last season under Henderson when we were able to play a higher line and at the Euro's where again, he was higher than he would normally have played at United in front of De Gea under Ole. He actually tends to make mistakes in the low block, very similar to how he does now as being the centre half who has to press into midfield which is where the lack of a functional holding midfield hinders us massively and obviously his relationship with De Gea is non existent which doesn't help either.

The way to look at it is if you put two world class centre backs and a holding midfielder in front of De Gea you would still see massive issues with crosses into the box and them being uncertain as to his position regarding balls over the top and not wanting to pass the ball to him in any circumstances due to his refusal to make himself available. If you put a world class goalkeeper and holding midfielder either side of Maguire he would be perfectly competent at doing his own job rather than having to cover a huge distance of the pitch both in front of him and behind him, we've seen with Maguire that he follows management instructions to the letter even where it puts him in positions he is clearly not comfortable, if he was asked to just to his own job with the proper protection in front and behind he would be fine, not spectacular or brilliant, but fine.

Higher line? You played so defensively in the Euro's though. It was all about straight forward counter football which suits Maguire. As soon as anything other than running straight ahead and passing straight ahead is involved he crumbles.

 

[JB7]

Higher line? You played so defensively in the Euro's though. It was all about straight forward counter football which suits Maguire. As soon as anything other than running straight ahead and passing straight ahead is involved he crumbles.

I feel like I'm trying to argue with somebody that formulates their understanding of football from Tiktok so I'll probably exit here. Have a nice day.

 

[Relevated]

It's very clear why LVG was so harsh in dropping him during his transfer talks.

 

[Roario]

You build a team from the back. DDG needs replacing before next season starts.

 

[Rightnr]

Another one of these threads. Before replacing Dave, we need to replace Maguire from the squad.

De Gea is at least good at some aspects of his job.

But first, competent midfield, so we can actually start playing football again.

 

[led_scholes]

Next year should be his last, but I think we will take the cheap option to renew his contract for a year. If we choose to extend his contract till 2024, we have 28 months to find and analyze his replacement. Surely, our scouting department can't mess this. They have to know that in the next 18 or 28 months, we need to have a new gk.

 

[Big Andy]

Another one of these threads. Before replacing Dave, we need to replace Maguire from the squad.

De Gea is at least good at some aspects of his job.

But first, competent midfield, so we can actually start playing football again.

A competent midfield would benefit Maguire as well. Let's be honest, Maguire isnt a bad player, he's a solid, top level defender. Hes in poor form currently, and its exacerbated by the fact he's not adequately protected in midfield, and means he plays on the back foot which isn't his strength due to his lack of pace and ability to turn quickly.

 

[JB7]

Another one of these threads. Before replacing Dave, we need to replace Maguire from the squad.

De Gea is at least good at some aspects of his job.

But first, competent midfield, so we can actually start playing football again.

One aspect. Literally, one aspect.

You look at every other aspect you want from a goalkeeper and he's dreadful. It's not even that he excels in one area and is average in other areas like most goalkeepers, he excels in one aspect but is genuinely abysmal at almost everything else.

Command of area - worst in the league; averages dealing with one cross out of every 33.
Sweeping - worst in the league; averages one sweeping action every five games.
Communication - he literally doesn't speak. I stand behind him every game and I've never seen a goalkeeper as quiet as him.
Distribution - not the worst in the league but in the bottom third overall; lowest number of passes from non-goal kicks in the league which shows the defences level of confidence in him.

There are other factors such as his preference for using his feet meaning that he often knocks the ball directly back into the danger areas which is why we often see him make 2 or 3 saves in succession rather than just pushing the ball away in the first instance or his lack of willingness to leave his line to even collect balls bouncing into the penalty area 15/16 yards out which puts the defenders under constant pressure facing their own goal.

This is the issue, if he was even average in other areas nobody would be calling him out as a major issue. It's the fact that he is dreadful is basically every area of goalkeeping other than shot stopping. The fact that half the shots he faces could be cut out by a more proactive goalkeeper is why we have looked a considerably better team with relatively average goalkeepers such as Henderson and Romero in goal.

 

[Rightnr]

A competent midfield would benefit Maguire as well. Let's be honest, Maguire isnt a bad player, he's a solid, top level defender. Hes in poor form currently, and its exacerbated by the fact he's not adequately protected in midfield, and means he plays on the back foot which isn't his strength due to his lack of pace and ability to turn quickly.

The only thing that'll benefit Maguire is return to his level which at best is lower half PL.

If we accept Maguire can be improved by buying a new midfield, I don't see what all this clamouring for replacing one of our better performing players (although I won't offer Dave a new contract).

 

[Lyng]

I feel like I'm trying to argue with somebody that formulates their understanding of football from Tiktok so I'll probably exit here. Have a nice day.

Thanks for the casual insult. Do keep trying to tell people England played anything other than straight forward counter football at the euros.

 

[Longshanks]

Maguire is our biggest issue because he is shite in this system and his overall football intelligence is absurdly low. He was fine when we played super defensive counter attacking under Ole and under Southgate which is a similar system.
De Gea needs to be replaced for the same reason, but his superb shot stopping puts him slightly lower on the priority.
Ideally they both are replaced in the summer, but it needs to be an actual upgrade and not simply Henderson.

Everyone is getting a bit obsessed about it being about the high line, its more to do with how we defend in the area which is the defenders have to do all the defending in the area because de gea will not do anything off his line. Which drags the defenders back closer to goal and generates the space inbetween the midfield and defence.

City's opener in the Derby, why is de bruyne on his own the penalty area, sureley maguire should pick him up? But maguire is on the six yard line to deal with the ball across the six yard box, Because there is no chance of de gea dealing with it so he has to worry about that rather than worry about man. Similar sort of thing happened against Leicester where maguires instinct was to go to vardy who was stood in a similar sort of posistion but then changed his mind and went to the six yard box the ball went to vardy and Leicester scored.

So many goals we have conceded over that last few years that have come about because de gea does no work in his penalty area, its literally just making saves on the line. And it absolutely kills us.

 

[steffyr2]

Zilch.

 

[Lyng]

Everyone is getting a bit obsessed about it being about the high line, its more to do with how we defend in the area which is the defenders have to do all the defending in the area because de gea will not do anything off his line. Which drags the defenders back closer to goal and generates the space inbetween the midfield and defence.

City's opener in the Derby, why is de bruyne on his own the penalty area, sureley maguire should pick him up? But maguire is on the six yard line to deal with the ball across the six yard box, Because there is no chance of de gea dealing with it so he has to worry about that rather than worry about man. Similar sort of thing happened against Leicester where maguires instinct was to go to vardy who was stood in a similar sort of posistion but then changed his mind and went to the six yard box the ball went to vardy and Leicester scored.

So many goals we have conceded over that last few years that have come about because de gea does no work in his penalty area, its literally just making saves on the line. And it absolutely kills us.

That is true but it highlights two other things which, due to the lack of quality players in our squad, is of higher importance. Maguire doesnt think before he acts. He reads the play terrible. We desperately need a defensive midfielder two read the opposition play and help fill in that gap.
That having been said, De Gea is not a fit if we want to play a more progressive style. In an ideal world all these areas get fixed in the summer.

 

[JB7]

Everyone is getting a bit obsessed about it being about the high line, its more to do with how we defend in the area which is the defenders have to do all the defending in the area because de gea will not do anything off his line. Which drags the defenders back closer to goal and generates the space inbetween the midfield and defence.

City's opener in the Derby, why is de bruyne on his own the penalty area, sureley maguire should pick him up? But maguire is on the six yard line to deal with the ball across the six yard box, Because there is no chance of de gea dealing with it so he has to worry about that rather than worry about man. Similar sort of thing happened against Leicester where maguires instinct was to go to vardy who was stood in a similar sort of posistion but then changed his mind and went to the six yard box the ball went to vardy and Leicester scored.

So many goals we have conceded over that last few years that have come about because de gea does no work in his penalty area, its literally just making saves on the line. And it absolutely kills us.

This is a critical point for me. I'm loathe to appear to be continually defending Maguire in this thread but the bolded segment is a common occurrence. Maguire has to fight all of his instincts playing in front of De Gea, which in turn obviously slows him down and costs us. The number of times in a game you see him look to De Gea instinctively both in and out of possession, for example the clip that was being shared on here after the Atletico game where Maguire had to turn around in the area because all of his passes other than De Gea were cut off but De Gea backed almost into his own goal to avoid the pass, a very similar thing happened at Newcastle when he had the ball out on the left hand side. You see him look at De Gea as his instinct it to pass to him but he won't make himself available. Same goes out of possession for balls into the box, both in terms of crosses and balls over the defence dropping into the box, you see him glance at the goalkeeper before going for the ball which of course slows him down. It's not that he can't read the game, it's more that he has to fight his instinct which again, is why he looks so much better in front of Henderson, Pickford, Schmeichel etc. Varane does it too but slightly less so, and he's clearly a more adaptable player which helps the issue but doesn't make it any less of a problem. For there to be a relationship the players have to be aligned, it's like the knack of a goalscorer knowing where the ball is going to drop, it's not something that is really coachable.

 

[Withnail]

It's a massive priority but then so is CB, RW, DM and CF

All you have to do is look at City and Liverpool. Getting in the right keeper made a huge difference to both teams.

 

[VanDeBank]

I kind of equate De Gea to be the goalkeeping version of Fernandes, tbh. Both thrive in chaotic, uncoached environments.

De Gea will have a great individual season making endless saves and some audacious reaction stops, but it’ll normally come in a season where the entire defence is lost at sea because the guy behind them radiates an aura of nervousness and a lack of control.

Having a ‘keeper with a semblance of modern play about him would be nice. I don’t think Henderson is that answer, unfortunately.

DDG thrived under Van Gaal and Hoek. "Chaotic, uncoached" it was not.

 

[Lentwood]

This is a critical point for me. I'm loathe to appear to be continually defending Maguire in this thread but the bolded segment is a common occurrence. Maguire has to fight all of his instincts playing in front of De Gea, which in turn obviously slows him down and costs us. The number of times in a game you see him look to De Gea instinctively both in and out of possession, for example the clip that was being shared on here after the Atletico game where Maguire had to turn around in the area because all of his passes other than De Gea were cut off but De Gea backed almost into his own goal to avoid the pass, a very similar thing happened at Newcastle when he had the ball out on the left hand side. You see him look at De Gea as his instinct it to pass to him but he won't make himself available. Same goes out of possession for balls into the box, both in terms of crosses and balls over the defence dropping into the box, you see him glance at the goalkeeper before going for the ball which of course slows him down. It's not that he can't read the game, it's more that he has to fight his instinct which again, is why he looks so much better in front of Henderson, Pickford, Schmeichel etc. Varane does it too but slightly less so, and he's clearly a more adaptable player which helps the issue but doesn't make it any less of a problem. For there to be a relationship the players have to be aligned, it's like the knack of a goalscorer knowing where the ball is going to drop, it's not something that is really coachable.

It's a very good point and one I think people who haven't really played the game can't necessarily appreciate. I have played CB to a fair standard (like, lower regional semi-pro) and not trusting your GK is a huge problem.

I honestly feel like Maguire is hung out to dry in this system. At the same time, he's being asked to play high, whilst also knowing his GK is basically a crab who can only move sideways across his goal-line, won't sweep and won't come for crosses. It's an impossible job.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The worst kind of keeper you can have behind you, as a defender, is one who isn't really a part of the defensive unit.

This isn't a modern thing - but it has arguably become even more important in recent years.

If your man isn't particularly good at communication, (defensive) leadership, sweeping, crosses...then he has to be extremely good at shot stopping in order to make it worthwhile.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Before replacing GK we need to replace :

CB
CB
LB
RB
DM
CM
CM
RM
ST
LM

 

[Oranges038]

It's a very good point and one I think people who haven't really played the game can't necessarily appreciate. I have played CB to a fair standard (like, lower regional semi-pro) and not trusting your GK is a huge problem.

I honestly feel like Maguire is hung out to dry in this system. At the same time, he's being asked to play high, whilst also knowing his GK is basically a crab who can only move sideways across his goal-line, won't sweep and won't come for crosses. It's an impossible job.

I've told people on here and elsewhere to go play in goal the way DDG does, stay on your line, don't talk or organise and whatever you do don't try and sweep or claim a high ball or even look for a backpass. Then come back and say it doesn't create confusion and problems in defence.

DDG and Maguire have had 3 years now working with each other, the most expensive centre back and the best paid keeper in the world and barely an ounce of communication or chemistry between after all that time. The whole defensive unit is a farce and lacks a vocal leader and commanding presence, neither DDG or Maguire is one.

 

[sullydnl]

The other factor that would play on my mind here is who we'd actually replace him with.

First, you'd have to trust that the club have a clear idea of what top level football demands of goalkeepers in 2022. Which isn't a given when you consider how little they understood what top level football was demanding of fullbacks in 2019.

Also while it's easy to find goalkeepers who are better rounded than De Gea on paper, that wouldn't be the aim of any attempt to replace him. The aim would be to actually sign a top class goalkeeper on par with the likes of Allison, Ederson etc. In other words to try and repeat our approach when replacing VDS (where we successfully identified a long-term high-talent replacement) rather than our approach when replacing Schmeichel (which saw us waste years on a cycle of good but not good enough goalkeepers).

And though most here seem to agree that we can do better than De Gea, I rarely see people actually cite which specific high-talent modern keeper they'd want as Manchester United's new #1. Instead the most often cited potential replacement is Henderson, who himself is relatively limited compared to the best goalkeepers and was only really an option because he happens to already be at the club. Were he not nobody would be crying out for us to sign him to replace De Gea.

If/when I saw signs that the club was now purchasing towards a clear style of play and/or there were obvious high-talent potential target like Neuer/De Gea were back in the day then I'd probably be more keen for the club to make a decisive move. Whereas I'm much less keen to move on our longstanding #1 at a point where the club seem baffled in terms of the direction they're going and there's a high chance that his replacement would be some stop-gap we'd be looking to upgrade on again in a year or two.